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Old 09-27-2019, 01:48 PM   #101
DirtyDave
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ClearcreekDC, the law is black and white. Like any law though, it's open to interpretation. How you and I interpret it doesn't mean squat. Anyone with half a brain knows that flashlight parts, oil/fuel filters, and scrubbing pads are just every day items.

SC-Texas is telling you that it's How the ATF interprets it is what you need to worry about.
"Intent" CAN and WILL be inferred by them. That has been proven to be how they operate
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Old 09-27-2019, 01:56 PM   #102
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Piggy backing off that.... If I buy a solvent trap my intent is not for that solvent trap to be used for silencing or muffling (It physically wont work for that.) Now if I drill that solvent trap out my intent for the solvent trap becomes to silence or muffle. If my materials do not have holes in them I have ZERO intent for them to silence or muffle.
You are wrong-- you are also incredibly dense.

There is a reason for lawyers and courts and case law and precedent. Not every situation is explicitly spelled out in the law. It can't be. You are staring in the face of a MOUNTAIN of evidence that your simplistic misrepresentation of intent is some kind of get-out-of-jail-free card. I'd personally like to see you bet on that.
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Old 09-27-2019, 02:02 PM   #103
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I know we’re getting off topic here, but how is owning a barrel equivalent to owning an illegal SBS?



It has been well established that a guy can own one Encore frame, pistol furniture, rifle furniture, pistol barrels, and rifle barrels, and change from rifle configuration to pistol and back again without committing a felony.



The same would seem to apply if I have an AR15 rifle, and purchase a shorty upper. Just because you own individual parts doesn’t mean you made an illegal firearm.
That is a special determination that was made for the Encore line. It has been well established that you can only go from pistol to rifle in an AR 15. You can not go rifle to pistol as the ATF has determined that constitutes an SBR. Not saying it's right, but what the MAN has determined...

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Old 09-27-2019, 02:34 PM   #104
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That is a special determination that was made for the Encore line. It has been well established that you can only go from pistol to rifle in an AR 15. You can not go rifle to pistol as the ATF has determined that constitutes an SBR. Not saying it's right, but what the MAN has determined...

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My point is, just because I OWN an AR15 rifle and a short upper, does not mean I MADE a SBR.

If I stuck the short upper on the rifle lower, I most definitely have made a SBR.
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Old 09-27-2019, 04:53 PM   #105
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so simply purchasing solvent traps consists of the intent to manufacture an illegal suppressor?
This doesn't seem like something that could or would actually hold up in a court of law.

What about purchasing flash lights, oil filters, coat hangers or rubber bands?

What if someone possesses 9ea-AR15 uppers 4ea-16" barrels and 5ea-10.5" barrels and also possesses 4ea-rifle lowers and 4ea-pistol lowers...
is that illegal too?

Last edited by BigJimmyRustler; 09-27-2019 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 09-27-2019, 05:07 PM   #106
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The Law and ATF's interpretation of the Law are 2 different things.
This seems to be what people here cannot grasp. ATF can come knocking at any time and for any reason they see fit.
You may have charges dropped eventually but it will still cost you in many ways.
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Old 09-27-2019, 05:20 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by DirtyDave View Post
The Law and ATF's interpretation of the Law are 2 different things.
This seems to be what people here cannot grasp. ATF can come knocking at any time and for any reason they see fit.
You may have charges dropped eventually but it will still cost you in many ways.
Ding ding ding. We have a winner.

Fundamentally, the ATF and NFA are tyrannical so why does anyone expect them to "play fair"? If that was the case they wouldn't use blanket words like "intent"
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Old 09-27-2019, 05:50 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDave View Post
The Law and ATF's interpretation of the Law are 2 different things.
This seems to be what people here cannot grasp. ATF can come knocking at any time and for any reason they see fit.
You may have charges dropped eventually but it will still cost you in many ways.


Word


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Old 09-27-2019, 06:10 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by BigJimmyRustler View Post
so

What if someone possesses 9ea-AR15 uppers 4ea-16" barrels and 5ea-10.5" barrels and also possesses 4ea-rifle lowers and 4ea-pistol lowers...
is that illegal too?
Per dicta in a 5th circuit case this is okay because you have at least one lower the short uppers are legal on

This is from an appeal of conviction for unregistered SBR.

Guy had bales of cocaine.

A AR15 rifle

A 10.5" upper on top of the buffet.




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Old 09-27-2019, 06:16 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by SC-Texas View Post
Per dicta in a 5th circuit case this is okay because you have at least one lower the short uppers are legal on

This is from an appeal of conviction for unregistered SBR.

Guy had bales of cocaine.

A AR15 rifle

A 10.5" upper on top of the buffet.




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With absolutely no intent of putting the 10.5” upper on the rifle lower . He was in the process of the pistol build.
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Old 09-27-2019, 08:36 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by SC-Texas View Post
Per dicta in a 5th circuit case this is okay because you have at least one lower the short uppers are legal on

This is from an appeal of conviction for unregistered SBR.

Guy had bales of cocaine.

A AR15 rifle

A 10.5" upper on top of the buffet.




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Can we get a case in which only an “illegal” firearm is involved? Something tells me that a few pounds of coke automatically makes you a felon and therefore illegal to own a gun.

Last edited by TacticalCowboy; 09-27-2019 at 08:47 PM.
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Old 09-27-2019, 09:44 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by TacticalCowboy View Post
Can we get a case in which only an “illegal” firearm is involved? Something tells me that a few pounds of coke automatically makes you a felon and therefore illegal to own a gun.
I cited one above.

Yes. The Illegal SBR, which would fall under the concept of constructive intent, was an add on charge that isn't material.

They charged him with the crime of possesion of an unregistered SBR simply because he had a complete upper and a rifle lower even though it wasn't assembled.



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Old 09-27-2019, 09:46 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by DirtyDave View Post
The Law and ATF's interpretation of the Law are 2 different things.
This seems to be what people here cannot grasp. ATF can come knocking at any time and for any reason they see fit.
You may have charges dropped eventually but it will still cost you in many ways.
Under Chevron, the USSC states that an agency can interpret the law any way it wants

If it wants a "and" to be and "or"

If it wants an "or" to be an "and"

This copulated us on 41F btw

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