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Old 05-12-2018, 03:20 PM   #1
Larryf250
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Default Suppressor - trust vs individual

Really looking at getting a suppressor and know itís a long process but what is the advantage of a trust over individual; other than having more than one person with a trust?
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Old 05-12-2018, 03:36 PM   #2
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Someone has to know this
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Old 05-12-2018, 03:39 PM   #3
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With a trust you do not need to have the chief law enforcement officer in your county/city sign off on the purchase. Unless you happen to be on a first name basis with your CLEO they are not willing to sign off. With a trust you need only advise the CLEO that you are buying a NFA item. Sean Cody is the resident expert on all things NFA trust.
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Old 05-12-2018, 05:13 PM   #4
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Passing your toys onto your family when you die is way easier with a trust. I say that with confidence, but I haven't died yet, sooooo.
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Old 05-13-2018, 10:10 AM   #5
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All NFA items will be passed down when someone dies, without another tax stamp being paid for EACH item again. Just make change on trust. Allows those on trust to use items individually without others on trust being present.
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Old 05-14-2018, 06:54 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmitchl View Post
With a trust you do not need to have the chief law enforcement officer in your county/city sign off on the purchase. Unless you happen to be on a first name basis with your CLEO they are not willing to sign off. With a trust you need only advise the CLEO that you are buying a NFA item. Sean Cody is the resident expert on all things NFA trust.
This is not true anymore. It used to be the case. Now all you have to do is inform Leo offices. No CLEO sign off anymore.

The only real advantage to the trust is having multiple people that can use it.

I bought mine as an individual.

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Old 05-14-2018, 07:30 AM   #7
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Trust is still the only way to go. It all deals with the fact that a trust never "Dies" therefore the suppressors never change "Hands" so you do not have to deal with the ATF when your kids inherit them.
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Old 05-14-2018, 07:43 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by bigdaddy590 View Post
This is not true anymore. It used to be the case. Now all you have to do is inform Leo offices. No CLEO sign off anymore.

The only real advantage to the trust is having multiple people that can use it.

I bought mine as an individual.

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Yes , that happened with the passing of 41F. Thanks Obama.
Another advantage you are overlooking is ONLY having to pay the stamp ONCE per item. Buying as a individual, the inheritors have to go through the whole process of owning a NFA item(s) and pay stamps AGAIN to retain ownership when the SOLE owner passes. A Trust, just adjust(add/delete) the paperwork of trustees and the world keeps spinning without a hiccup. Unless someone is already NFA approved and is a inheritor taking posession. The ATF will come asking for those stamped items and who has possession. If no one is, the items go to a class 3 dealer and sit in jail while the estate works out the paper work.
Which does it sound like you want?
Trust is the way to go.
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Old 05-14-2018, 05:33 PM   #9
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Yes , that happened with the passing of 41F. Thanks Obama.
Another advantage you are overlooking is ONLY having to pay the stamp ONCE per item. Buying as a individual, the inheritors have to go through the whole process of owning a NFA item(s) and pay stamps AGAIN to retain ownership when the SOLE owner passes. A Trust, just adjust(add/delete) the paperwork of trustees and the world keeps spinning without a hiccup. Unless someone is already NFA approved and is a inheritor taking posession. The ATF will come asking for those stamped items and who has possession. If no one is, the items go to a class 3 dealer and sit in jail while the estate works out the paper work.
Which does it sound like you want?
Trust is the way to go.
I believe the Form 5 will let you transfer without paying the tax again and they go through a different path and are typically approved much faster than a F4 or F1.
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Old 05-15-2018, 07:37 AM   #10
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I believe the Form 5 will let you transfer without paying the tax again and they go through a different path and are typically approved much faster than a F4 or F1.
Only on the first successor. When it happens again they have to pay the tax again. And if any named successor is not eligible the item has to be destroyed.

Trust makes all these scenarios much simpler.
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Old 05-15-2018, 09:27 AM   #11
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Only on the first successor. When it happens again they have to pay the tax again. And if any named successor is not eligible the item has to be destroyed.

Trust makes all these scenarios much simpler.
I agree, but they are not necessary for everyone in every situation. Suppressors are getting like computers, by the time you get yours up and running there is already a new one out that is better. Who is really going to want a 50 year old rimfire suppressor when the ones 50 years from now will be suppressing laser beams and stuff.
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Old 05-15-2018, 09:42 AM   #12
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I agree, but they are not necessary for everyone in every situation. Suppressors are getting like computers, by the time you get yours up and running there is already a new one out that is better. Who is really going to want a 50 year old rimfire suppressor when the ones 50 years from now will be suppressing laser beams and stuff.
Might even be able to buy them off the shelf at Walmart in 50 years
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Old 05-15-2018, 10:01 AM   #13
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Possession is the main advantage to the trust. Without it, if you leave your gun/suppressor at the camp while you run to town, everyone there is illegally in "possession" of that suppressor. Or if you leave it unlocked at the house with wife and kids, or if they have the ability to open safe where you store the suppressor then it is illegal possession. You can also add and remove people from the trust at any time.

I have a trust and the paperwork is harder now, but still worth it. I would ONLY put people that are close and available when you want one. I have the wife, son, brother and uncle are on the trust. Brother and uncle out of town, so bigger pain to get all paperwork signed.
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Old 05-15-2018, 05:35 PM   #14
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I donít see any advantage to buying as an individual unless youíre a childless devout bachelor that doesnít care to have any friends close enough or significant others that youíd be willing to share your toys with. If thatís the case then you can save a few dollars. Otherwise, a trust is the way to go. For a minimal expense you keep a lot of options open.


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Old 05-16-2018, 07:09 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Horitexan View Post
I donít see any advantage to buying as an individual unless youíre a childless devout bachelor that doesnít care to have any friends close enough or significant others that youíd be willing to share your toys with. If thatís the case then you can save a few dollars. Otherwise, a trust is the way to go. For a minimal expense you keep a lot of options open.


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I dont see any advantage to buying through a trust. I wont be lending it out to anyone. Wife will only use it when I'm around so no benefit for me.

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Old 05-16-2018, 07:30 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by bigdaddy590 View Post
I dont see any advantage to buying through a trust. I wont be lending it out to anyone. Wife will only use it when I'm around so no benefit for me.

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Your wife cannot legally possess it without you around, so unless you carry it around with you everywhere you go and never forget it or leave it in the truck, it is highly unlikely that you will avoid a situation where she is in possession. It is also highly unlikely that anything will happen during the time she is in possession that would cause a problem, but do you really want to risk it?
The benefit to YOU is protecting your wife against a potential charge of felony possession of an NFA item.
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Old 05-16-2018, 07:38 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Horitexan View Post
I donít see any advantage to buying as an individual unless youíre a childless devout bachelor that doesnít care to have any friends close enough or significant others that youíd be willing to share your toys with. If thatís the case then you can save a few dollars. Otherwise, a trust is the way to go. For a minimal expense you keep a lot of options open.
Individual generally clears quicker over the trust, which I'm yet to understand exactly why...if you are in a super hurry, you can pay the 2 bones under individual & then another 2 bones to move it to your trust.

...at least that is what someone posted in regards to taking the quickest possession possible of a FA purchase. Nothing I would consider for a few months wait.
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Old 05-16-2018, 08:28 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
Your wife cannot legally possess it without you around, so unless you carry it around with you everywhere you go and never forget it or leave it in the truck, it is highly unlikely that you will avoid a situation where she is in possession. It is also highly unlikely that anything will happen during the time she is in possession that would cause a problem, but do you really want to risk it?
The benefit to YOU is protecting your wife against a potential charge of felony possession of an NFA item.
This. Say you're out of town and your house catches on fire. Firemen and police roll up. In the aftermath, they see your suppressor. Your wife could be charged with a felony.

It's a stupid law, but by the letter of the law, she would be a felon.

Don't take a chance, get the trust.
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Old 05-16-2018, 09:14 PM   #19
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thanks for all the responses. I knew this place was a wealth of knowledge. I think the smart thing is spend the extra funds and go with a trust
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Old 05-16-2018, 09:59 PM   #20
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Trust is a one time small fee that allows much more flexibility.

Iíve said it before, dabbling in NFA items is not the time to be a cheap ***.


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Old 05-16-2018, 10:52 PM   #21
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Possession is the main advantage to the trust. Without it, if you leave your gun/suppressor at the camp while you run to town, everyone there is illegally in "possession" of that suppressor. Or if you leave it unlocked at the house with wife and kids, or if they have the ability to open safe where you store the suppressor then it is illegal possession. You can also add and remove people from the trust at any time.

I have a trust and the paperwork is harder now, but still worth it. I would ONLY put people that are close and available when you want one. I have the wife, son, brother and uncle are on the trust. Brother and uncle out of town, so bigger pain to get all paperwork signed.
You can add or remove people from a trust as beneficiaries but a responsible person defined by the Nfa has to be listed on the application. Each responsible person has to have fingerprints and background checks. Not sure if this was clear from your comment.
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:56 PM   #22
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And if you leave your nfa item at camp and none of those individuals are listed as responsible persons, the trust is not a free pass. The nfa item still has to be in possession of a responsible person listed on the app.
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Old 05-17-2018, 07:43 AM   #23
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Individual generally clears quicker over the trust, which I'm yet to understand exactly why...if you are in a super hurry, you can pay the 2 bones under individual & then another 2 bones to move it to your trust.

...at least that is what someone posted in regards to taking the quickest possession possible of a FA purchase. Nothing I would consider for a few months wait.
Now the times are about the same.
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Old 05-17-2018, 08:57 AM   #24
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Individual generally clears quicker over the trust, which I'm yet to understand exactly why...if you are in a super hurry, you can pay the 2 bones under individual & then another 2 bones to move it to your trust.

...at least that is what someone posted in regards to taking the quickest possession possible of a FA purchase. Nothing I would consider for a few months wait.

Is this correct in that someone can change from Individual to a Trust down the road when it makes more sense (kids getting old enough to handle gun, etc...) and it cost ~$200 to make the switch and add people?
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Old 05-17-2018, 09:09 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by bigdaddy590 View Post
This is not true anymore. It used to be the case. Now all you have to do is inform Leo offices. No CLEO sign off anymore.

The only real advantage to the trust is having multiple people that can use it.

I bought mine as an individual.

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This and be able to pass it on after your gone.
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Old 05-17-2018, 09:16 AM   #26
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I dont see any advantage to buying through a trust. I wont be lending it out to anyone. Wife will only use it when I'm around so no benefit for me.

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What is your wife supposed to do if you die? Do you also not have life insurance because it's not a benefit to you?
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Old 05-17-2018, 09:17 AM   #27
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You can add or remove people from a trust as beneficiaries but a responsible person defined by the Nfa has to be listed on the application. Each responsible person has to have fingerprints and background checks. Not sure if this was clear from your comment.
Only at the time the application is made.
You do not have to fingerprint someone to add them to the trust after the Form 4 is in hand.
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Old 05-17-2018, 09:19 AM   #28
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And if you leave your nfa item at camp and none of those individuals are listed as responsible persons, the trust is not a free pass. The nfa item still has to be in possession of a responsible person listed on the app.
this is incorrect.
only responsible persons at the time of the application need to be fingerprinted and checked.
If you add all your camp buddies by trust amendment after you have the Form 4 they are able to legally possess any property of the trust.
These areas are where a good, competent lawyer is worth what you pay them.
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Old 05-17-2018, 09:54 AM   #29
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Is this correct in that someone can change from Individual to a Trust down the road when it makes more sense (kids getting old enough to handle gun, etc...) and it cost ~$200 to make the switch and add people?
Yes you could F4 it from an individual to a Trust. F4 = $200
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Old 05-17-2018, 10:09 AM   #30
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this is incorrect.
only responsible persons at the time of the application need to be fingerprinted and checked.
If you add all your camp buddies by trust amendment after you have the Form 4 they are able to legally possess any property of the trust.
These areas are where a good, competent lawyer is worth what you pay them.
This is how I understand it too.

It seems to me that the best way to go is to set up a trust with only yourself listed as the responsible person. That means only you personally have to be fingerprinted and go through the process of being approved by the ATF.

Once you complete that process, then you add other individuals as responsible persons on the trust. Doing so means that you don't have to coordinate with them getting fingerprinted for the application purpose.

Am I understanding this correctly?

I have a Dead Air Sandman in jail right now. Can't wait to get my hands on it.
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Old 05-22-2018, 03:04 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Throwin' Darts View Post
This is how I understand it too.

It seems to me that the best way to go is to set up a trust with only yourself listed as the responsible person. That means only you personally have to be fingerprinted and go through the process of being approved by the ATF.

Once you complete that process, then you add other individuals as responsible persons on the trust. Doing so means that you don't have to coordinate with them getting fingerprinted for the application purpose.

Am I understanding this correctly?

I have a Dead Air Sandman in jail right now. Can't wait to get my hands on it.
Yes, but it is really a one time deal, since next time everyone you added to the trust will have to go thru the fingerprint etc, or you can have multiple trusts but that could get confusing.
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Old 05-22-2018, 04:01 PM   #32
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Yes, but it is really a one time deal, since next time everyone you added to the trust will have to go thru the fingerprint etc, or you can have multiple trusts but that could get confusing.
SS sells a single trust that you buy each time you make a purchase. Seems like a big loophole that will get closed up eventually.
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Old 05-22-2018, 04:17 PM   #33
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Yes, but it is really a one time deal, since next time everyone you added to the trust will have to go thru the fingerprint etc, or you can have multiple trusts but that could get confusing.
All you have to do is remove them as resonsible persons from the trust for the duration of the application and add them back later if you choose.
Set your trust up right and it should be easy.
Smart lawyers have figured this stuff out... that's what I paid Jim Willi for and he took care of me in spades.
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Old 05-22-2018, 05:25 PM   #34
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Trust is the way I did it
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Old 05-22-2018, 05:33 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by meltingfeather View Post
All you have to do is remove them as resonsible persons from the trust for the duration of the application and add them back later if you choose.
Set your trust up right and it should be easy.
Smart lawyers have figured this stuff out... that's what I paid Jim Willi for and he took care of me in spades.
That would only work if no one in the trust already had suppressors under the trust. There are 5 of us, and 4 have possession of different ones at all times

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Old 05-23-2018, 05:40 PM   #36
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What is your wife supposed to do if you die? Do you also not have life insurance because it's not a benefit to you?
Well mister high-and-mighty she can do whatever she pleases with it. Throw it in the lake, chop it up etc. I can guarantee she wont want it.

But thanks for letting me know how those much more sophisticated than I feel about the topic.

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Old 05-23-2018, 06:59 PM   #37
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Well mister high-and-mighty she can do whatever she pleases with it. Throw it in the lake, chop it up etc. I can guarantee she wont want it.

But thanks for letting me know how those much more sophisticated than I feel about the topic.

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Not trying to be high and mighty. At the very least you're leaving her with an ATF paperwork process to deal with by not making provisions for her legal possession prior.
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Old 05-23-2018, 07:03 PM   #38
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That would only work if no one in the trust already had suppressors under the trust. There are 5 of us, and 4 have possession of different ones at all times

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It works for me every time.
If you're leveraging a single trust to cover 5 individuals and multiple suppressors and would rather all get fingerprinted as the trade-off, by all means get after it.
What was your point again?
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Old 05-23-2018, 08:59 PM   #39
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It works for me every time.
If you're leveraging a single trust to cover 5 individuals and multiple suppressors and would rather all get fingerprinted as the trade-off, by all means get after it.
What was your point again?
Point is, i wouldn't think most can remove people from the trust to get around being printed, unless those trustees brought back all suppressirs in their possession under the current trust.

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Old 05-24-2018, 09:43 AM   #40
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Point is, i wouldn't think most can remove people from the trust to get around being printed, unless those trustees brought back all suppressirs in their possession under the current trust.

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Maybe I'm out of touch, but I don't think most people are stretching their trusts as far as you are.
If you'd said it wouldn't work for you, I'd have said you're probably right. If it's easier to get everyone fingerprinted, have at it.
You said it won't work, which is incorrect-- it works perfectly for me.
Having split enough hairs, I'm moving on.
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Old 06-22-2018, 12:51 PM   #41
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So, for a guy that is single, has no heirs, and doesn’t plan on loaning out their suppressor to anyone and plans to be with anyone other than themselves when it is in use, what is the advantage of the trust?
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Old 06-22-2018, 07:54 PM   #42
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So, for a guy that is single, has no heirs, and doesnít plan on loaning out their suppressor to anyone and plans to be with anyone other than themselves when it is in use, what is the advantage of the trust?
Comments?
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Old 06-22-2018, 08:16 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Greenheadless View Post
So, for a guy that is single, has no heirs, and doesnít plan on loaning out their suppressor to anyone and plans to be with anyone other than themselves when it is in use, what is the advantage of the trust?
Do you plan to stay that way forever & what do you want to happen with all your current & future firearm purchases now if something were to happen?? Would you at least not want them to end up with a good amigo??

You have to remember these are generally lifetime purchases. Let's just say you do them as an individual under your current circumstances & life changes, meet soulmate, etc. Unless I'm not understanding correctly, you would then have to pay $200 per nfa item to get them to a trust later vs. making an addendum, having them already on a trust at no cost.

Setting up a trust now is worth it IMO...hopefully someone can confirm my assumptions.
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Old 06-22-2018, 08:26 PM   #44
Greenheadless
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Wouldn’t the probate attorney or the state handle this. If I was to leave to buddy, i would think if they really wanted it, they can pay for the inheritance.

I honestly just don’t see the benefit in my situation of a trust. Put yourself in my shoes and me wrong.
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Old 06-22-2018, 08:47 PM   #45
Artos
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I'm not going to convince you of anything...you want to let the state handle bidding & do all the settling of your affairs, that is fine with me as well.

I have no skin in the game...you already have my scenario to consider otherwise. You are not talking about any significant amount of $$$$ of trust vs individual.
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Old 06-23-2018, 09:37 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenheadless View Post
So, for a guy that is single, has no heirs, and doesnít plan on loaning out their suppressor to anyone and plans to be with anyone other than themselves when it is in use, what is the advantage of the trust?
Go individual. Or pay $25 and go through SS and get their one shot trust, just in case you ever change your mind.

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Old 06-23-2018, 09:47 PM   #47
Greenheadless
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenheadless View Post
Wouldn’t the probate attorney or the estate handle this. If I was to leave to buddy, i would think if they really wanted it, they can pay for the inheritance.

I honestly just don’t see the benefit in my situation of a trust. Put yourself in my shoes and me wrong.
Fixing what was supposed to read above in red.

Not saying I don’t have stuff to leave to folks, just don’t not too concerned about paying extra $$$ for something that isn’t necessarily needed IMHO, unless there is a compelling stpr6 otherwise.
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Old 06-25-2018, 12:23 PM   #48
35remington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenheadless View Post
Not saying I donít have stuff to leave to folks, just donít not too concerned about paying extra $$$ for something that isnít necessarily needed IMHO, unless there is a compelling stpr6 otherwise.
You've ignored the logic in this thread so far. I say go with your original plan and file as an individual.
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Old 06-25-2018, 05:51 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
You've ignored the logic in this thread so far. I say go with your original plan and file as an individual.
Please point out the “logic” I ignored in this thread as it pertains to my situation. Maybe I am missing something here.
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Old 06-25-2018, 10:23 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duckmanep View Post
Or pay $25 and go through SS and get their one shot trust, just in case you ever change your mind.

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I would like to hear more about this. Thanks.
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