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Old 02-14-2018, 09:24 AM   #1
RickBarbee
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Default Hunting Accuracy/Proficiency ?

How many believe the 9" paper plate thing is a fair assessment for adequate hunting proficiency?

Rick
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Old 02-14-2018, 09:26 AM   #2
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With a rifle, yes. With a bow, eventually but with the risk of losing the animal. For archery the goal should be more like a 4” plate or a tennis ball


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Old 02-14-2018, 09:38 AM   #3
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I think 9" is too big - for my comfort level anyway. I have 4" bulls on my target face.I don't feel confident from a given distance unless during a practice session almost all my arrows are in that circle with "flyers" only 1" or so outside. 9" at an static plate is one thing, too much margin for error on an animal.
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Old 02-14-2018, 09:48 AM   #4
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I'm talking about 20 yards.

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Old 02-14-2018, 09:52 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickBarbee View Post
I'm talking about 20 yards.

Rick


Poorly placed arrow is a poorly placed arrow regardless of how far it traveled
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Old 02-14-2018, 09:53 AM   #6
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I've never seen a round vitals on an animal. I would say a rectangle 6" wide by 10" tall would be my preference. This at any range where your arrow still has sufficient penetration for the size animal you're shooting (and you feel lucky)
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Old 02-14-2018, 09:57 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickBarbee View Post
I'm talking about 20 yards.

Rick
tennis ball size
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Old 02-14-2018, 09:59 AM   #8
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So, if a 9" paper plate is to big - how many can keep all their arrow on one from 20 yards, or to make it even simpler, how many can do it from your preferred hunting distance?

To make sure you understand - I don't care, and I'm not in favor of proficiency tests of any kind. I'm in favor of common sense, where a hunter limits hinself to a shot distance he knows he can make with confidence.

This question was just posted out of curiosity is all.

Rick
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:02 AM   #9
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The assessment I use for hunting proficiency isn’t group size, it’s distance. I’ve lost deer that I have shot in the past and it really makes me feel awful. I only shoot at a distance that I feel 100% confident that I will put the arrow where it needs to go. For me that is half of 20 yds and less. I let some good ones walk this year, but no regrets next they’ll be bigger. A mans gotta know his limitations and I’m certainly not the best shot out there . Pie plates don’t make my heart pound and my knees shake!

Last edited by chuckc.; 02-14-2018 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:07 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckc. View Post
I only shoot at a distance that I feel 100% confident that I will put the arrow where it needs to go.
YES !

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Old 02-14-2018, 10:08 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickBarbee View Post
I'm talking about 20 yards.

Rick
I can keep it on a 9" plate from 20 and do pretty well on 3d animals at that distance. However I don't have the confidence to shoot a deer at that distance. If the deer moves at all it could be a bad shot I'd want back.
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:19 AM   #12
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What I would tell folks is.......
Take your 3-D target and lean it against your wife's car.
The distance you are willing to shoot at it is a safe distance to shoot at deer

I my younger days I traveled for a living.
I used to put a bag target against the bathroom mirror in the hotel room and shoot at it to practice my form.
That will make you slow down and make good shots as well
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:25 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buff View Post
I my younger days I traveled for a living.
I used to put a bag target against the bathroom mirror in the hotel room and shoot at it to practice my form.
That will make you slow down and make good shots as well
LOL, I did the same thing.

Skipped a lot of lunch breaks, and shot the bag at roadside parks too.
That got me into some trouble a couple of times, but nothing serious.

It's funny what you'll do just to get to shoot a little.

Rick
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Old 02-14-2018, 10:28 AM   #14
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I like it
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buff View Post
What I would tell folks is.......
Take your 3-D target and lean it against your wife's car.
The distance you are willing to shoot at it is a safe distance to shoot at deer

I my younger days I traveled for a living.
I used to put a bag target against the bathroom mirror in the hotel room and shoot at it to practice my form.
That will make you slow down and make good shots as well
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:00 AM   #15
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9" plate is smaller than some realize at 20 yards. It is not much different than the back of the shoulder to back of the lungs on a whitetail. There is a park near Pittsburgh PA that has a proficiency test to be allowed to hunt it. Many compound archers couldn't hit it at 20 yards, that's scary.
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:02 AM   #16
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I came very close to killing one of my wife’s pet chickens shooting at my 3D deer from 30yds. So that’s definitely not a shot I should attempt on a live animal!
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:11 AM   #17
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Let's not get side tracked.

The 9" plate - Is it, or is it not proficient ability in accuracy for hunting?

Rick
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:17 AM   #18
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If you're talking about shots from a target stance, with a warmup, 9" is not adequate. But, if you can jog up to your shooting position, pick up your bow and put the first arrow into a 9" paper plate, or sit at your shooting position and put the first arrow in, or kneel, or shoot standing on uneven ground. In other words, if you can put that first arrow into a 9" paper plate from a given distance, under any conditions, I think that is hunting accuracy for that distance.

Here are some top of back to bottom of brisket estimates for other common North American game animals taken from various sources, but primarily from Jack O'Connor's book The Hunting Rifle:
•Pronghorn antelope = 14"-15"
•Small deer = 14"-15"
•Medium size deer = 17"-18"
•Large deer = 18"-20"
•North American wild sheep = 20"-22"
•Mountain goat = 22"-24"
•Caribou = 24"-26"
•Elk = 24"-26"
•Moose = 30"-36"

Given those external body measurements, here are some estimated "vital area circle" diameters that roughly correspond to the approximate (heart/lung) target area:
•Pronghorn antelope = 8.5"-9"
•Small deer = 8.5"-9"
•Medium size deer = 10"-11"
•Large deer = 11"-12"
•North American wild sheep = 12"-13"
•Mountain goat = 13"-14.5"
•Caribou = 14.5"-15.5"
•Elk = 14.5"-15.5"
•Moose = 18"-21.5"

One thing that those numbers show us is that ordinary 9" economy paper plates can be used to simulate the size of the target that the deer and pronghorn hunter needs to be able to hit. These make inexpensive targets.
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:29 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip Fields View Post
If you're talking about shots from a target stance, with a warmup, 9" is not adequate. But, if you can jog up to your shooting position, pick up your bow and put the first arrow into a 9" paper plate, or sit at your shooting position and put the first arrow in, or kneel, or shoot standing on uneven ground. In other words, if you can put that first arrow into a 9" paper plate from a given distance, under any conditions, I think that is hunting accuracy for that distance.

Here are some top of back to bottom of brisket estimates for other common North American game animals taken from various sources, but primarily from Jack O'Connor's book The Hunting Rifle:
•Pronghorn antelope = 14"-15"
•Small deer = 14"-15"
•Medium size deer = 17"-18"
•Large deer = 18"-20"
•North American wild sheep = 20"-22"
•Mountain goat = 22"-24"
•Caribou = 24"-26"
•Elk = 24"-26"
•Moose = 30"-36"

Given those external body measurements, here are some estimated "vital area circle" diameters that roughly correspond to the approximate (heart/lung) target area:
•Pronghorn antelope = 8.5"-9"
•Small deer = 8.5"-9"
•Medium size deer = 10"-11"
•Large deer = 11"-12"
•North American wild sheep = 12"-13"
•Mountain goat = 13"-14.5"
•Caribou = 14.5"-15.5"
•Elk = 14.5"-15.5"
•Moose = 18"-21.5"

One thing that those numbers show us is that ordinary 9" economy paper plates can be used to simulate the size of the target that the deer and pronghorn hunter needs to be able to hit. These make inexpensive targets.
Agree, except I can actually shoot better when setting, and even when kneeling as long as my knees are padded.

Rick
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:36 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip Fields View Post
If you're talking about shots from a target stance, with a warmup, 9" is not adequate. But, if you can jog up to your shooting position, pick up your bow and put the first arrow into a 9" paper plate, or sit at your shooting position and put the first arrow in, or kneel, or shoot standing on uneven ground. In other words, if you can put that first arrow into a 9" paper plate from a given distance, under any conditions, I think that is hunting accuracy for that distance.

Here are some top of back to bottom of brisket estimates for other common North American game animals taken from various sources, but primarily from Jack O'Connor's book The Hunting Rifle:
•Pronghorn antelope = 14"-15"
•Small deer = 14"-15"
•Medium size deer = 17"-18"
•Large deer = 18"-20"
•North American wild sheep = 20"-22"
•Mountain goat = 22"-24"
•Caribou = 24"-26"
•Elk = 24"-26"
•Moose = 30"-36"

Given those external body measurements, here are some estimated "vital area circle" diameters that roughly correspond to the approximate (heart/lung) target area:
•Pronghorn antelope = 8.5"-9"
•Small deer = 8.5"-9"
•Medium size deer = 10"-11"
•Large deer = 11"-12"
•North American wild sheep = 12"-13"
•Mountain goat = 13"-14.5"
•Caribou = 14.5"-15.5"
•Elk = 14.5"-15.5"
•Moose = 18"-21.5"

One thing that those numbers show us is that ordinary 9" economy paper plates can be used to simulate the size of the target that the deer and pronghorn hunter needs to be able to hit. These make inexpensive targets.
Great factual information, Phillip! Particularly valuable assessment, as well, knowing that you have taken animals with trad equipment all over the world!
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:46 AM   #21
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Is the 9 inch plate over the vitals or his ***?
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:55 AM   #22
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I would not be happy if I was all over a 9” circle at 20yds. And I’m shooting that bad these days! I have only shot a handful of critters in all the time I have been doing this at 20 or farther.

My biggest fear is missing high. If I miss high by 3”, and the critters drops 3”, that makes my point of impact 6” high, and that can often lead to a lost critter!!!!!

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Old 02-14-2018, 11:57 AM   #23
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So let me add to the question.

IF, you were required to take a test on a 9" paper plate with the following criteria:

"Penalized" for the occasional bad shot we all have them, but with the ability to make it up.

20 arrows / From 20 yards.

As you see here scored 5, 4, 3, but a negative 2 for a miss, and a minimum allowed score of 60 points.

Could you pass it?

Rick
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:59 AM   #24
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I know of at least one guy who can pass it.
He just recently did, and and he ain't me.

Rick
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Old 02-14-2018, 12:06 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buff View Post
What I would tell folks is.......
Take your 3-D target and lean it against your wife's car.
The distance you are willing to shoot at it is a safe distance to shoot at deer

I my younger days I traveled for a living.
I used to put a bag target against the bathroom mirror in the hotel room and shoot at it to practice my form.
That will make you slow down and make good shots as well
My distance just shrank from 15 yards to 3. Thanks Marty !
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Old 02-14-2018, 12:08 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drycreek3189 View Post
My distance just shrank from 15 yards to 3. Thanks Marty !
Marty is mean, and BRUTALLY Honest.

Rick
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Old 02-14-2018, 12:10 PM   #27
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Quote:
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My distance just shrank from 15 yards to 3. Thanks Marty !
LOL!! I don't ever drive my wife's car. I'm good out to 500 yards.
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Old 02-14-2018, 12:13 PM   #28
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Default Hunting Accuracy/Proficiency ?

Before 6/11/16 (the day I jacked up my neck and left radial nerve), I have no doubt I could have passed that test. Now, I would have to do it to see if I could pass or not? I know of several folks who I’m sure could pass it with no problem.

I can see the reasoning for proficiency tests. They just don’t translate to the woods real well. Lots of folks make bad/dumb decisions once there is a live critter in front of them!!!

And..........**it happens to even the best every once in a while!

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Old 02-14-2018, 12:15 PM   #29
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Nope

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Old 02-14-2018, 12:20 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickBarbee View Post
How many believe the 9" paper plate thing is a fair assessment for adequate hunting proficiency?

Rick
With a bow, no.

with a rifle on an elk at 300 yds, yes. On a deer at 100 yards, no way. Especially the little deer in Texas.
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Old 02-14-2018, 12:38 PM   #31
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I'm pretty sure he's referring to a traditional bow. Many places used this as a standard a few decades ago. You could keep four out of five arrows on it they allowed you to hunt.

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Old 02-14-2018, 12:49 PM   #32
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On your 20 shot test - my first thought was "I could do that, you only have to average 3 points per arrow". But the more I think about it realistically, I don't think I would pass. Out of 20 shots I would have too many misses and those negative numbers add up quickly. I need to practice more from 20+ yards
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Old 02-14-2018, 01:18 PM   #33
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Default Hunting Accuracy/Proficiency ?

Okay, I just went out and shot 20 arrows from 20yds at a 9” paper plate. I used all the plate, but did not have any misses. Score was 78, so I guess I could pass.

And, as bad as I’m shooting, I would never attempt a shot on a live deer at that distance right now!!!!

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Old 02-14-2018, 01:47 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisch View Post
Okay, I just went out and shot 20 arrows from 20yds at a 9” pie plate. I used all the plate, but did not have any misses. Score was 78, so I guess I could pass.

And, as bad as I’m shooting, I would never attempt a shot on a live deer at that distance right now!!!!

Bisch


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Same here.
Just came in from doing it.
Scored an 89, and I try to limit myself to shots of 15 yards & under when hunting.

Rick
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Old 02-14-2018, 01:51 PM   #35
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If I was shooting well, I would expect somewhere in the 85-95 range. 89 is a very respectable score.

Bisch


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Old 02-14-2018, 01:54 PM   #36
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This question has adapted way too much in a couple of hours.

1) hitting a paper plate means jack **** when it comes to hunting proficiency.
2) hitting a paper plate does mean quite a bit when it comes to being able to shoot your bow proficiently
3) hitting a paper plate in a pass/fail environment means a little bit more about your ability to manage stress.
4) I believe I could pass your prescribed test at 20 yards. But your test, again, means little to me because it is each shot that has to count... including the first one. If anything, it would likely remind me why I don't hunt past 15 yards.

and finally...

5) I believe there is a place for an accuracy test when it comes to qualifying to hunt somewhere. It might not tell you everything you need to know about a hunter, but it will sure as heck let you know if they are talking up a big game or not... or weed out those who really haven't taken the time and effort to practice.


I say this coming from a point right now where I could pass that test, but still had a hell of a time making it work this past season.
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Old 02-14-2018, 01:57 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickBarbee View Post
So, if a 9" paper plate is to big - how many can keep all their arrow on one from 20 yards, or to make it even simpler, how many can do it from your preferred hunting distance?

To make sure you understand - I don't care, and I'm not in favor of proficiency tests of any kind. I'm in favor of common sense, where a hunter limits hinself to a shot distance he knows he can make with confidence.

This question was just posted out of curiosity is all.

Rick
I practice at 50yd, 40yd, 30yd and occasionally shoot at 20 to make sure the pin is good. At 20yds you need to be able to hit a tennis ball, repeatedly. I never shoot past 30yds at white tail
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Old 02-14-2018, 02:03 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the marshall View Post
I practice at 50yd, 40yd, 30yd and occasionally shoot at 20 to make sure the pin is good. At 20yds you need to be able to hit a tennis ball, repeatedly. I never shoot past 30yds at white tail
Um, compound much?

We're talking stickbows here, but tennis ball accuracy at 20 & beyond is quite good for anyone.

Rick
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Old 02-14-2018, 02:12 PM   #39
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Yeah I think some guys are posting out of the general feed on the main page not realizing they are in the trad section .

As to the question if I could put 20 at 20 into the plate, right now I know I could not do it. After my second back surgery in 2007 I gave trad up. I kept all my bows and once a year or so I would shoot a couple arrows but not enough to keep the level of accuracy up I used to have. I decided this year I missed it too much and bought that TradTech. By the end of April I expect to have that accuracy back (yes I am confident I can).
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Old 02-14-2018, 02:22 PM   #40
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Default Hunting Accuracy/Proficiency ?

Ok, just went out and shot it again, and again after that! The first round I flubbed 2 misses in there, but still ended up with a 76. The next round was a no miss 84.

And I still don’t feel confident enough to shoot at any live critter smaller than an elk at 20yds!

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Old 02-14-2018, 02:27 PM   #41
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Default Hunting Accuracy/Proficiency ?

I think a proficiency test at 20yds is too far for trad hunting. That is my own personal opinion! I say this because most folks won’t shoot at critters 20 and beyond. And you can’t keep the idiot from being himself! The guy who will take stupid shots will do so, even if he passes the test at 20!

Idk what the solution to proving proficiency is???? It seems most of the times that this is needed, it is to satisfy someone other than those hunting, or those overseeing the hunting opportunities. I see guys every year taking to the woods who I feel are not near good enough. But if y’all knew what I went thru this past deer season, you would probably say I was not good enough, and I got 5 deer with my longbow!!!

Bisch


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Old 02-14-2018, 02:30 PM   #42
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Also would prefer to keep hunting shots under 15 yards, but did pass the test, with a 73. Challenge seems legit as a self-check , and it also can be a little diagnostic for ways to improve.

Noted that of 20 shots, had two misses (within an inch of plate), while 15 shots were actually within the 6-1/4" circle and over half (8) of those in the 3-1/4" circle. Need to shoot more, period, as my last group showed some form defects from fatigue pulling the heavy bow (dropping bow arm); plus, need to practice more from longer distance to enhance form for shorter ranges.
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Old 02-14-2018, 03:49 PM   #43
SwampRabbit
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I think a proficiency test at 20yds is too far for trad hunting.
Definitely agree. I had to qualify with a compound bow for a place back in the day that stated 25 yards 9". I would much prefer tell them I won't take a shot past 15, etc.

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It seems most of the times that this is needed, it is to satisfy someone other than those hunting, or those overseeing the hunting opportunities.
I've seen it for that and I have seen it where somebody who does hunt doesn't want to see injured animals running around their place. I think it makes sense, but at the same time, some of the standards are pretty silly too.
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Old 02-14-2018, 03:58 PM   #44
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the problem with 20 shots... is gonna be mental/physical fatigue. And if you miss the first 1 or 2 to let you brain adjust, you are just trying to play catch up from there.

again, not a real good test of hunting proficiency.

for reference the one test I had to take was 3 out of 5 arrows in a 9" circle at 25 yards. Took me 3, but the first one darn nearly made it seem like I might have to use 4.
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Old 02-14-2018, 04:09 PM   #45
DRT
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I know of at least one guy who can pass it.
He just recently did, and and he ain't me.

Rick
I'm pretty sure you could get close to a perfect score Rick.

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Old 02-14-2018, 04:12 PM   #46
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I'm pretty sure you could get close to a perfect score Rick.

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Nope. Not at the moment anyway.
You have to spend a lot more time shooting than what I do to be that accurate with a stickbow.

Rick
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Old 02-14-2018, 04:13 PM   #47
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I agree with Bisch. My self want a deer inside of 16 yards. 10 to 12 would be nice. Not that I can't make a 20 yard shot on a paper plate but a deer moves faster.

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Old 02-14-2018, 04:18 PM   #48
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I can and did. 73 with one miss.
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Old 02-14-2018, 04:28 PM   #49
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I can and did. 73 with one miss.


Good job.

Rick
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Old 02-14-2018, 04:52 PM   #50
Drycreek3189
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Um, compound much?

We're talking stickbows here, but tennis ball accuracy at 20 & beyond is quite good for anyone.

Rick
I shoot a compound too, but I have an old Red Wing Hunter that I play with from time to time. Been awhile though, and I couldn't keep them all in a wagon wheel at 15 yd. right now.
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