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Old 12-23-2017, 06:24 PM   #1
stxhunter
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Default What's your management plan?

I've been reading quite a bit about management, specifically on QDMAs website. Most of their articles suggest not culling young bucks based on undesirable traits. Instead they focus on allowing deer to mature, balancing herd ratios (i.e. shooting does over 2.5-3.5yr old "culls), and providing better nutrition. This of course only applies to low fenced completely wild herds.

https://www.qdma.com/cant-manage-deer-genetics/

https://www.qdma.com/pumba-yet-anoth...ck-that-wasnt/

I know every property is different, but what is your management plan and how has it affected your herd since you started?

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Old 12-23-2017, 06:31 PM   #2
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We have bigger bucks than ever. Try not to take anything less than 5.5 except for a few older culls. By culls I mean pencil horn 4.5 are no are small browtines at 4.5 are older. If a deer is 4.5 are older with no brows my Grand kids are after him, providing he is wider than his ears. I do not feed protein, but do not over graze my deer pastures.

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Old 12-23-2017, 06:51 PM   #3
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Qdma is set up for smaller type properties that are normally highly pressured. That seems to be the demographic they cater to. In most of those scenarios the biggest hurdle is getting a deer to 5 years old.

Heck there are a lot of big ranch areas where hunters canít pass up 4 year olds. Lol
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Old 12-23-2017, 07:36 PM   #4
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We will not shoot one under 4.5 except maybe a 3.5 with no brows. Age is number one priority
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Old 12-23-2017, 07:38 PM   #5
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I go for the ones I can manage to get close enough to.
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Old 12-23-2017, 08:23 PM   #6
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Our plan is shoot the trophy deer that you like. Try your best to not shoot a deer under 4.5. If you do shoot a trophy deer under 4.5 just remember what you might be missing the next 2-3 years. We shoot any 8 point over 3.5. Big older 9 points and non trophy 10 points that are 4.5 usually are for the kids and family members. We have always had a good buck to doe ratio so we don't worry about them to much.
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Old 12-23-2017, 08:35 PM   #7
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Don’t shoot anything under 5.5. Lots of habitat work. Supplemental free-choice protein. Shoot does. “Culls” don’t get shot for the sake of “improving genetics”. They help buck/doe ratio and they will shot when they pass 5.5.
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Old 12-23-2017, 09:32 PM   #8
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Our strategy in a nutshell:
Trophies - 7.5+
Management is for population control and we focus on the bottom end of the gene pool
1.5 yo with less than 3" spikes, all spikes in great years like this year
2.5 with less than 6pts
3.5 with less than 8 points
4.5+ based on score vs. peers
big framed deer get a pass until trophy age
1 deer/20 acres
1:1 buck to does (more bucks than does currently)
supplemental feed protein and cottonseed 10+ months per year
Sale hunts for medium class 5.5yo's+ (130"-160") to offset some expenses
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Old 12-24-2017, 10:41 AM   #9
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To keep hunting till I get a shot!
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Old 12-24-2017, 10:45 AM   #10
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Be consistent and Roll with the punches.
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Old 12-24-2017, 11:19 AM   #11
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I own both high fence and low fenced properties managed for deer. After years of personal experience working and managing both I have come to the conclusion that the primary difference between the two is the 'opportunity' to control age. Game fences do not grow big deer. It is what is done inside the fence that determines results...same as low fence. Regarding " completely wild herds", having game fenced pasture next to low fenced pastures I see NO difference in deer behavior.

Thus my management plan for both is identical.
I focus on NUTRITION, NUTRITION, NUTRITION!!! I believe there are very few deer herds anywhere that are on 100% peak nutrition 365 days a yr every year for generations . Until nutrition is in place everything else is compromised. It is impossible to understand the genetic potential. Nutrition makes all the deer better and the benefits continue to accrue over time.

We don't harvest any deer before 4.5. From there we do begin removing the smaller end of the buck herd. This is viewed only as a herd population control; Nothing to do with genetic manipulation. I would also offer that after a couple of decades of peak nutrition our entire bell curve of quality has improved and even the smaller end of the spectrum, once allowed to mature excite most hunters.

We start focusing on trophies in La. at 6 yrs old and in Mexico at 7 yrs old though down there I think 7-10 is the sweet spot depending on the deer.

Beyond that our plan is simply an emphasis on the basics. Balanced herd population to the habitat, balanced buck/doe ratio, encourage high recruitment, enhance the habitat every way possible and know thy herd.

Couple of thoughts:
Bucks go up AND down from year to year...sometimes a lot. Better know your deer really well before you pull the trigger. That buck you thought needed removal may have just had a bad yr. and could bounce back a lot given another yr. 20" , 30" and greater swings in antler quality are not uncommon.

A dictatorship is a powerful management tool. By knowing your deer well you can control which deer to remove and which to leave.

Best of the holidays to all.
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Old 12-24-2017, 12:43 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Encinal View Post
Be consistent and Roll with the punches.
No thy herd is a good one. Found out the hard way on consistency. Changed feeds over previous couple years and the quality of my deer took a nose dive.
Went back to my old feed last December that I had previously been feeding for years. All the deformed antlers on the mature bucks disappeared and saw a big improvement in antler quality. Deer don't like changes. Learned not be so impatient, takes a long time to raise the bar.
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Old 12-24-2017, 02:36 PM   #13
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I think population control, at least for our area (Menard county), is very important behind letting bucks get to around 6.5/7.5yrs and providing nutrition year-round. That being said, we are a small low fenced property, around 400 acres, so our neighbors have a lot to do with our management plan. Hopefully, one day they will shoot the correct # of does and start reducing the deer herd. I would like to get our #’s to around 1 deer/7 acres, but that’s going to take some time. No matter what our neighbors do, We will continue to feed protein year-round, feed cottonseed 8 months a year and plant fall food plots and try to help improve the native habitat by removing cedars to help improve our deer herd. Like el gato said above, NUTRITION is the #1 thing for a deer herd.
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Old 12-24-2017, 03:50 PM   #14
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Elgato and those of you with a good handle on your deer herd...what percentage of your herd consists of bucks 5 plus years old? If there were 100 deer in the herd, how many would be that age? Iím trying to figure out what is a reasonable expectation for our herd. I assume the percentage a mature bucks will be lower on most low fence properties.
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Old 12-24-2017, 04:45 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txwhitetail View Post
Qdma is set up for smaller type properties that are normally highly pressured. That seems to be the demographic they cater to. In most of those scenarios the biggest hurdle is getting a deer to 5 years old.

Heck there are a lot of big ranch areas where hunters canít pass up 4 year olds. Lol
I have never heard this before, there are some awfully big properties that adhere to QDMA principles.

It really shines when local properties form a co-op...which is kinda what you are talking about, I guess
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Old 12-24-2017, 04:58 PM   #16
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Shoot a legal deer.
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Old 12-24-2017, 04:59 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doghouse View Post
We have bigger bucks than ever. Try not to take anything less than 5.5 except for a few older culls. By culls I mean pencil horn 4.5 are no are small browtines at 4.5 are older. If a deer is 4.5 are older with no brows my Grand kids are after him, providing he is wider than his ears. I do not feed protein, but do not over graze my deer pastures.
Same with us.
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Old 12-24-2017, 05:25 PM   #18
B&C
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elgato View Post
I own both high fence and low fenced properties managed for deer. After years of personal experience working and managing both I have come to the conclusion that the primary difference between the two is the 'opportunity' to control age. Game fences do not grow big deer. It is what is done inside the fence that determines results...same as low fence. Regarding " completely wild herds", having game fenced pasture next to low fenced pastures I see NO difference in deer behavior.

Thus my management plan for both is identical.
I focus on NUTRITION, NUTRITION, NUTRITION!!! I believe there are very few deer herds anywhere that are on 100% peak nutrition 365 days a yr every year for generations . Until nutrition is in place everything else is compromised. It is impossible to understand the genetic potential. Nutrition makes all the deer better and the benefits continue to accrue over time.

We don't harvest any deer before 4.5. From there we do begin removing the smaller end of the buck herd. This is viewed only as a herd population control; Nothing to do with genetic manipulation. I would also offer that after a couple of decades of peak nutrition our entire bell curve of quality has improved and even the smaller end of the spectrum, once allowed to mature excite most hunters.

We start focusing on trophies in La. at 6 yrs old and in Mexico at 7 yrs old though down there I think 7-10 is the sweet spot depending on the deer.

Beyond that our plan is simply an emphasis on the basics. Balanced herd population to the habitat, balanced buck/doe ratio, encourage high recruitment, enhance the habitat every way possible and know thy herd.

Couple of thoughts:
Bucks go up AND down from year to year...sometimes a lot. Better know your deer really well before you pull the trigger. That buck you thought needed removal may have just had a bad yr. and could bounce back a lot given another yr. 20" , 30" and greater swings in antler quality are not uncommon.

A dictatorship is a powerful management tool. By knowing your deer well you can control which deer to remove and which to leave.

Best of the holidays to all.
Trail cameras are the best management tool of this century. Knowing your deer from yr to yr is critical. We've seen 60" swings from year to year. We have 2 this year dropped 50+" and would have been shot if we didn't know them.
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Old 12-24-2017, 05:45 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonA View Post
Same with us.


X3


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Old 12-24-2017, 06:32 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovemylegacy View Post
I have never heard this before, there are some awfully big properties that adhere to QDMA principles.

It really shines when local properties form a co-op...which is kinda what you are talking about, I guess
QDMA is deer management training wheels.

It would be impossible to do the more advanced stuff without what they teach, but there really isnít a handbook out there to tell you how to manage your deer herd, deer by deer.
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Old 12-24-2017, 07:26 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Encinal View Post
QDMA is deer management training wheels.

It would be impossible to do the more advanced stuff without what they teach, but there really isnít a handbook out there to tell you how to manage your deer herd, deer by deer.
Deer by deer. It really boils down to that.
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Old 12-24-2017, 10:06 PM   #22
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The primary place we “manage” is our deer camp. Around ~800 acres. We average 8-9 bucks and 12-15 does, per year. We plant 30 or so acres of plots at camp depending on the year. All the hay meadows are seeded with clover and the woods are 100% hardwoods that we thin & burn for optimal wildlife value. We don’t put any feed out, but the deer & turkey are fat and happy.

Our rule on bucks is outside the ears (15”) and 8 points or better. This has worked out pretty good for us, almost ensuring any buck killed is at least a 3 year old. It’s not a “big buck” area, but there are a lot of deer and they can get decent sized at 3.5 and up. Probably a 115-120” average on the bucks we kill at camp, with a really nice one or two a year in the 140 range.

We’re a little more selective around the house. Even though it’s onlt 25 miles from camp, there’s better dirt and much bigger deer. Our neighbors are pretty selective on their farms (for the most part), so we are as well. The average “good” buck killed around here is probably 4 and most likely in the 135 range. There’s usually at least a couple 160s killed within a few miles. One neighbor got two big ones, last year. Most people put in plots and minerals, and it shows. We have 17 acres of plots at our house. Lots of good ones on camera, but not as many deer as we have at camp.
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Old 12-24-2017, 11:43 PM   #23
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Default What's your management plan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by elgato View Post
Deer by deer. It really boils down to that.


We took our place over from 3 guys who leased it about 8 years ago(family property). I went out and killed 2 young bucks which were the best deer I saw and they broke 100 inches maybe 105 to 110 at most. Years 3 and 4 I killed a 4.5 year six point and does. Year 5 I killed a 154, year six a 148 8 Point, and this year we killed a 144 10 and a 146 10. After I killed my second buck in the 100 inch range I joined TBH and learned about managing deer. Since then we donít cull but will let a guest shoot a 4.5 year or older buck that doesnít meet our criteria.

The 154 inch buck I killed was going to be my biggest buck I have ever killed but I passed on him for 2 years and killed him at 5.5 or 6.5 and he put on 30 inches.


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Last edited by Black Ice; 12-24-2017 at 11:48 PM.
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Old 12-24-2017, 11:54 PM   #24
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Culls on our place are any buck that is 7 points or less and at least 3.5 years or older.
Main frame 8pts can be taken at 4.5 or older. Any main frame 9pt or greater must be 5.5 or older.
Does we try and take early before they are bred.
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Old 12-25-2017, 12:08 PM   #25
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We can only take one buck so its not easy to manage for culls, etc. we try not to shoot them unless they are 5.5 or older. this is the first year we have taken a doe. I tries like heck to put my kid on a mature 8 pt this year. would have been a trophy cull and her first. Northern Collin County
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Old 12-25-2017, 12:21 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Encinal View Post
QDMA is deer management training wheels.

It would be impossible to do the more advanced stuff without what they teach, but there really isn’t a handbook out there to tell you how to manage your deer herd, deer by deer.
Well, thats an impossibility

If you manage the property, wont everything else fall in line?

Would you care to elaborate on "more advanced" stuff?

Last edited by lovemylegacy; 12-25-2017 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 12-25-2017, 12:36 PM   #27
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Our plan is do not shoot any bucks under 5.5 years old unless they are an obvious cull/ bullies (they control the pen and do not let other deer eat). Then we try to only shoot bigger does with no yearlings. We are working with 2000 acres low fenced in the hill country and try to feed as much protein as we can.

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Old 12-25-2017, 12:43 PM   #28
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Feed em a bunch, give em something to drink and let em get old!
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Old 12-25-2017, 12:47 PM   #29
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Our doe to buck ratio is off. So our top priority is taking does. Beyond that we focus on letting our bucks get at least 4.5 but preferably 5.5 or older. We do a lot of habitat work/management and try to provide high protein food sources and corn year around. We also attempt predator control to help the fawn crops every year.
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Old 12-25-2017, 06:04 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovemylegacy View Post
Well, thats an impossibility

If you manage the property, wont everything else fall in line?

Would you care to elaborate on "more advanced" stuff?
If you manage for the macro stuff well, you are going to be dealing with very important micro questions... ie... what to shoot and what to leave...

When the macro stuff is done... those questions get tougher and tougher... you are choosing between 5 year olds... or you are choosing to not kill as many Does this year not because of your fawn crop this year... but because of your lack of fawn crop last year... simple things... but hard to write about from a macro perspective...

Every manager so far that gets to the point of consistent quality has just had to figure those those things out for themselves.

There are guidelines but I donít know that anyone has written many of them down.
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Old 12-25-2017, 08:25 PM   #31
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Our plan...
Feed as much as you can afford.
Trophies at 6.5 plus if you are disciplined enough.
Cull selective 3 year olds (no brows, 5-7 points, scrubs under 100") 4 year old 8s that don't have big frames and potential to be special.
Pray your neighbors don't shoot the nice ones you pass (my hardest problem past couple years)
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Old 12-25-2017, 09:40 PM   #32
lovemylegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Encinal View Post
If you manage for the macro stuff well, you are going to be dealing with very important micro questions... ie... what to shoot and what to leave...

When the macro stuff is done... those questions get tougher and tougher... you are choosing between 5 year olds... or you are choosing to not kill as many Does this year not because of your fawn crop this year... but because of your lack of fawn crop last year... simple things... but hard to write about from a macro perspective...

Every manager so far that gets to the point of consistent quality has just had to figure those those things out for themselves.

There are guidelines but I donít know that anyone has written many of them down.
I get what you are saying...you make sound way more difficult than it is.

This is what I have learned, if you manage your property, it benefits all the wildlife and there are many common sense ways to do that. Being under an MLD program, which we are bound to do, the biologist gives us guidelines, not rules, we follow them and do more than he suggests. In wildlife management there is no such thing as a "cull", only in trophy management. In management you are attempting to increase the health of all wildlife and deer benefit from this, antler growth is a subsidiary of this "health" management.

I have read material and watched many videos discussing these very topics, I just don't get where you can there hasn't been much written about this, but, whatever.

Very informative thread
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Old 12-26-2017, 12:57 AM   #33
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Have you ever read anything about disappearing in-line points, or the “out of nowhere” blow up?

Have you read about how poor is too poor to recover from the next year even if they live?

Have you read about which 8’s are likely to turn into 10’s or which 10’s are likely to turn into twelves?

Which deer with imbalanced points 4x5 or 5x6 are always going to stay that way? Which ones are going to balance out?

Can antler density tell you about potential?

There’s no science done on any of those things that I’ve ever read... but I’m sure you can think about your observations and find clues to likelyhoods.

When dealing in the minutia of which deer gets to stay and which one has to go every little edge has a chance to help.

That’s where the art still lies in being a manager, and I would love for someone to publish a coloring book.

It’s not difficult at all as you said, but you have to know what to look for. Many of the things are perhaps herd and situationally specific.

Basically it’s just a whole lot of questions.

Who’s going to be the first one of us to get a phenotypic expression on a doe that gives us a clue to what type of antlers they might throw? Is there not one? Is it wider heads? Narrower? The same body coloring as many of your larger bucks in the area?

Once you get the macro stuff down, you start asking screwball questions.

Last edited by Encinal; 12-26-2017 at 01:20 AM.
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Old 12-26-2017, 09:16 AM   #34
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Here's a couple more things you might not learn from QDMA:

When to shoot female fawns because you want to keep the number of mature does you have to assure robust recruitment. Yet you still need some doe removal for population control.

The value of getting lots of bucks in the older age classes to compensate for gaps in age classes caused from years of low fawn recruitment. If you have a strong population of bucks in the harvestable age { 7-10 } then gaps in upcoming age classes aren't so detrimental to any particular season.

For those that don't do DMP or such , the value of letting high quality bucks that are trophies by your standards yet not something you might want to harvest die of old age. This gives quality bucks many more years in the breeding pool to effect the herd. As a biologist once told me " In a trophy program if you don't have some bucks dieing of old age you are probably over harvesting your ranch".

For as that goes you want read any studies of the influence of DMP pens on population dynamics.

Or longterm survivability and impact of deer being trapped from other areas and transported to ranches. Or introducing northern genes to southern herds.

Even though many of the founders of QDMA were the first to experiment with game fencing you want read anything from them of the pros/cons and responsibilities involved once a fence is built. Fact based information versus emotion.

QDMA has been outspoken in their opposition to deer breeders. To me this is ironic when they have bestowed their highest honors to the biologist who essentially founded the deer breeding industry and still serve in QDMA today. Nor do they acknowledge all the valuable research garnered from collegiate and private research facilities { read deer breeding operations } around the country. Yet they are quick to post knowledge gained from these biologist and the programs they lead. Thus you wont read any non opinionated facts on knowledge gained from captive pens and how they help us all be better manager irrespective the size of our fence.

While I support QDMA and believe the principles they espouse are valuable, I also believe there is much more they could do to aid managers and dispel some of the polarization in the deer community frequently based on emotional reactions versus actual fact.
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Old 12-26-2017, 09:36 AM   #35
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Couldn’t agree more about the knowledge gained by Breeders. It’s been immensely valuable and gained us knowledge that can be applied to all herds.
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Old 12-26-2017, 09:56 AM   #36
lovemylegacy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Encinal View Post
Have you ever read anything about disappearing in-line points, or the ďout of nowhereĒ blow up?

Have you read about how poor is too poor to recover from the next year even if they live?

Have you read about which 8ís are likely to turn into 10ís or which 10ís are likely to turn into twelves?

Which deer with imbalanced points 4x5 or 5x6 are always going to stay that way? Which ones are going to balance out?

Can antler density tell you about potential?

Thereís no science done on any of those things that Iíve ever read... but Iím sure you can think about your observations and find clues to likelyhoods.

When dealing in the minutia of which deer gets to stay and which one has to go every little edge has a chance to help.

Thatís where the art still lies in being a manager, and I would love for someone to publish a coloring book.

Itís not difficult at all as you said, but you have to know what to look for. Many of the things are perhaps herd and situationally specific.

Basically itís just a whole lot of questions.

Whoís going to be the first one of us to get a phenotypic expression on a doe that gives us a clue to what type of antlers they might throw? Is there not one? Is it wider heads? Narrower? The same body coloring as many of your larger bucks in the area?

Once you get the macro stuff down, you start asking screwball questions.
Yessir, it is an impossibility to know or understand all there is about antler development or potential or the lack there of. Just reading what you are writing here makes me ask the question, why cull? If we cannot predict the future antler development of a buck then why cull them? In my opinion, an "inferior" buck, still carries a certain percentage of "preferable" genetics. However, this more on the lines of "Trophy Management" and not "Wildlife Management" or QDMA.

You could actually drive yourself crazy trying to figure it out. I still prescribe to the frame of mind of manage your property and let the deer quality rise from that. Property quality is the only thing we can control. Even trying to control the population is a crap shoot, especially using state limitations.
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Old 12-26-2017, 10:03 AM   #37
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elgato, I have always wondered why young doe were not the main target or a main target in doe harvest. If you have a doe that you are fairly certain that cast twins or was bred by a "quality" buck, shouldnt she allowed to exhibit her quality aspects just like a buck.

I think when we look at antler quality only or as our main objective, we are being narrow minded.
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Old 12-26-2017, 10:15 AM   #38
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Couldnít agree more about the knowledge gained by Breeders. Itís been immensely valuable and gained us knowledge that can be applied to all herds.
How does knowledge of penned deer give you knowledge of free ranging deer.

Penned deer are under controlled circumstances their whole life, how does that knowledge translate to wild free ranging deer?

Feed-penned deer have fewer choices, but those choices may be a gross amount of nutrients, where as a free ranging deer has many more choices with possibly less nutrients?

Breeding- penned deer are set up to breed a specific doe based up on a recorded lineage. free ranging bucks will breed any in season doe that they can.

Man, you can just walk it down the list and each category will have different results based upon captive vs wild deer.

Interesting as it may be...
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Old 12-26-2017, 12:58 PM   #39
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How does knowledge of penned deer give you knowledge of free ranging deer.

Penned deer are under controlled circumstances their whole life, how does that knowledge translate to wild free ranging deer?

Feed-penned deer have fewer choices, but those choices may be a gross amount of nutrients, where as a free ranging deer has many more choices with possibly less nutrients?

Breeding- penned deer are set up to breed a specific doe based up on a recorded lineage. free ranging bucks will breed any in season doe that they can.

Man, you can just walk it down the list and each category will have different results based upon captive vs wild deer.



Interesting as it may be...
When you look at all the research done by the various universities, Ms. State, Auburn University and others, couple that with research done by Caesar kleburg
and other research institutions you find much of what we know scientifically about whitetail deer and its relationship to its environment. A vast amount of this research is conducted in controlled breeding pens. Going a step further many private breeders have by either working independently or in conjunction with universities furthered insights into how deer respond to various inputs. Much of the jargon and conventional wisdom we all use today came from such facilities .

take a look at the Caesar Kleburg current research and you will see pages of research conducted in relatively small enclosures. Same with Ms. State which has been a research leader for decades in the field and provided leading edge management advise from their university pens which is considered conventional wisdom today.

Practical impacts include:
All aspects of the nutritional needs of deer including seasonal needs, maternal needs , effects of nutrition on antler growth,etc etc etc. Deer breeders in particular have provided significant insight into nutritional needs.

Deer breeders especially have been at the forefront in formulating deer rations optimizing deer health. Much of that has parlayed over to private practices and formulas.

Deer pen research has essentially debunked culling as a practical field tool . Genetic research as well as observed results have shown ...and I quote" it appears that contributions of maternal, environmental and other factors to antler growth were more important than genetic potential for antler growth". There are numerous other studies supporting this position. All this has very practical field application.

I could go on and on. Suffice to say that many of todays management principles and practices, especially in situations where deer herds can be effectively managed have spawned from the knowledge gained from penned deer either raised for research or profit.

Perhaps I should add that I am not a deer breeder and don't particularly like most breeder pen deer I see. But I do respect what can be learned from them. Nor do I do any DMP,TTT, or anything else. Just feed deer and let them grow old.

Last edited by elgato; 12-26-2017 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 12-26-2017, 02:19 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovemylegacy View Post
Yessir, it is an impossibility to know or understand all there is about antler development or potential or the lack there of. Just reading what you are writing here makes me ask the question, why cull? If we cannot predict the future antler development of a buck then why cull them? In my opinion, an "inferior" buck, still carries a certain percentage of "preferable" genetics. However, this more on the lines of "Trophy Management" and not "Wildlife Management" or QDMA.

You could actually drive yourself crazy trying to figure it out. I still prescribe to the frame of mind of manage your property and let the deer quality rise from that. Property quality is the only thing we can control. Even trying to control the population is a crap shoot, especially using state limitations.
Good question! There are lots of reasons for lots of different scenarios to remove deer. For me it’s way more about taking them off the payroll (both browse and feed) than trying to edge genetics. Genetic changes without line breeding or creating hard bottlenecks seem like effort towards insurmountable diminishing returns. Since I have restricted myself due to personal preference to managing a native deer herd, that’s effort wasted.

You can’t predict the future with certainty, certainly, but you can get closer by not just looking at one set of antlers at one age and deciding on a trigger pull.

What to shoot and what not to shoot is more about deer that already exist than some future expectation of genetic expression in a yet to be born fawn.

I take far greater interest in what deer to shoot, and when in his or her life to do it. (Haha yes you always shoot them at the end of their life).

When do you let a mature buck walk? When do you cut losses? When do you decide upside potential isn’t worth the extra time and death loss risk? How do you balance expenses vs income in a hunting operation with a 4-8 year inventory production time? Which big deer do you shoot a year earlier than you would like to because you need to shoot a big deer that year?

QDM doesn’t talk about those things because TDM is a step beyond. It’s everything QDM does plus extra attention to detail, not something else entirely.

Last edited by Encinal; 12-26-2017 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 12-26-2017, 02:40 PM   #41
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Donít shoot a buck until they are 7, thatís when they get fun to hunt and offer a challenge.
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Old 12-26-2017, 03:09 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elgato View Post
When you look at all the research done by the various universities, Ms. State, Auburn University and others, couple that with research done by Caesar kleburg
and other research institutions you find much of what we know scientifically about whitetail deer and its relationship to its environment. A vast amount of this research is conducted in controlled breeding pens. Going a step further many private breeders have by either working independently or in conjunction with universities furthered insights into how deer respond to various inputs. Much of the jargon and conventional wisdom we all use today came from such facilities .

take a look at the Caesar Kleburg current research and you will see pages of research conducted in relatively small enclosures. Same with Ms. State which has been a research leader for decades in the field and provided leading edge management advise from their university pens which is considered conventional wisdom today.

Practical impacts include:
All aspects of the nutritional needs of deer including seasonal needs, maternal needs , effects of nutrition on antler growth,etc etc etc. Deer breeders in particular have provided significant insight into nutritional needs.

Deer breeders especially have been at the forefront in formulating deer rations optimizing deer health. Much of that has parlayed over to private practices and formulas.

Deer pen research has essentially debunked culling as a practical field tool . Genetic research as well as observed results have shown ...and I quote" it appears that contributions of maternal, environmental and other factors to antler growth were more important than genetic potential for antler growth". There are numerous other studies supporting this position. All this has very practical field application.

I could go on and on. Suffice to say that many of todays management principles and practices, especially in situations where deer herds can be effectively managed have spawned from the knowledge gained from penned deer either raised for research or profit.

Perhaps I should add that I am not a deer breeder and don't particularly like most breeder pen deer I see. But I do respect what can be learned from them. Nor do I do any DMP,TTT, or anything else. Just feed deer and let them grow old.
I have read some of Dr Jacobsen's material, I think he was the Professor at Miss St. I was particularly interested in a spike buck he had in a pen that grew into a monster. That was a ways back.

These days I read and watch Grant Woods, it seems to me his info is more relevant to deer and wildlife management.

I also like Dr Kroll, his research seems to be done more in the wild. I especially like his on going argument with the TPWD enclosure that skewed all that data about spikes...for why? I have no idea

So yeah I get what you are saying, I just didnt think we were talking about college research.

I totally agree with the culling myth.


Good stuff
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Old 12-26-2017, 05:29 PM   #43
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Dr. Harry Jacobson is a good friend whom I have spent much time with. After retiring from Ms. State he went into private consulting and still to this day has many clients around the country. He has and does manage some of the best properties anywhere. He, Grant Woods,James Kroll, Bob Zaiglan are all buddies and would on almost all subjects regarding deer and deer management be in total agreement.
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Old 12-26-2017, 05:50 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovemylegacy View Post
I have read some of Dr Jacobsen's material, I think he was the Professor at Miss St. I was particularly interested in a spike buck he had in a pen that grew into a monster. That was a ways back.

These days I read and watch Grant Woods, it seems to me his info is more relevant to deer and wildlife management.

I also like Dr Kroll, his research seems to be done more in the wild. I especially like his on going argument with the TPWD enclosure that skewed all that data about spikes...for why? I have no idea

So yeah I get what you are saying, I just didnt think we were talking about college research.

I totally agree with the culling myth.


Good stuff
What is the culling myth ?
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Old 12-26-2017, 07:36 PM   #45
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What is the culling myth ?
Culling to change the genetic composition of a herd is impossible?
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Old 12-26-2017, 07:53 PM   #46
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Culling to change the genetic composition of a herd is impossible?
I donít think itís the ďcullingĒ part thatís impossible. Maybe the control over the influx of outside deer.
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Old 12-27-2017, 04:35 PM   #47
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What is the culling myth ?
That it actually works.
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Old 12-27-2017, 06:36 PM   #48
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That it actually works.
Can you define "works" ?
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Old 12-27-2017, 06:56 PM   #49
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IMO culling only works under the most intense management circumstances with the criteria of a) better be high fenced or b) large LF acreage ( several thousand acres) , c) and culling the right deer at the right age.
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Old 12-28-2017, 03:34 AM   #50
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Can you define "works" ?
Any time I am talking management, I am referring to wild free ranging whitetails. Not penned deer.

Works, worked, work- accomplished or finished

Culling is a lame excuse to shoot a buck to get around self imposed limitations. It does not accomplish anything as far as quality of the deer herd, to many variables. Besides, all whitetails have enough good genetics, that if you feed them and let them grow they will fulfill their potential.
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