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Old 03-18-2011, 08:38 AM   #1
hodat1957
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Default Tbot arrow rest re-clarification

Everybody get on the band wagon or CRAZY TRAIN . I was contacted last nite by members of the Tbot EC about my answer given on the arrow rest dilemma. I was WRONG! The Tbot EC voted on this 2 years ago(This meeting I did not attend) and said that no elevated or mechanical rest would be legal for competition. My interpretation of this rule was as wrong as some other peoples.The rules and guidelines will be made more clear and posted in the future. I apologize that I misinformed some of you. This in the past has been a non-issue, but now it is a hot topic for some. We will have an open forum and discussion at Hill Country.We welcome new and useful ideas.

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Old 03-18-2011, 08:44 AM   #2
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So if I read that correctly it's off the shelf or nothing... and pretty much rules out bows cut past center..

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Old 03-18-2011, 08:54 AM   #3
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As I understand it you can build out the riser and build up the shelf
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Old 03-18-2011, 09:03 AM   #4
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Now that's confusing. Are you saying that there cannot be any air between the rest and the shelf like a flipper type? That would make sense. What about the old style feather rests that glue to the shelf? A photo of what is legal and is not legal would clear things up...Van
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Old 03-18-2011, 09:24 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by hodat1957 View Post
Everybody get on the band wagon or CRAZY TRAIN . I was contacted last nite by members of the Tbot EC about my answer given on the arrow rest dilemma. I was WRONG! The Tbot EC voted on this 2 years ago(This meeting I did not attend) and said that no elevated or mechanical rest would be legal for competition. My interpretation of this rule was as wrong as some other peoples.The rules and guidelines will be made more clear and posted in the future. I apologize that I misinformed some of you. This in the past has been a non-issue, but now it is a hot topic for some. We will have an open forum and discussion at Hill Country.We welcome new and useful ideas.

Thanks,
Bud Murphy
Tbot President
So can a stick on elevated rest be used at the Hill Country Shoot or not!If not and it was voted on 2 years ago why were shooters using them last year in this shoot.If this is going to be a rule enforced now me and some others should have been made aware before we sent our $ in.The rules should be clear and enforced the same at every shoot as I expressed in the original thread.I have about 6 shooters going and making plans(took vacation,practicing with certain set-ups)and I am hearing about rules changing or going to be enforced this late!Somebody needs to get their s**t together!
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Old 03-18-2011, 09:56 AM   #6
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As I posted in the past this has been a non-issue, but because of a dispute at a Tbot shoot last weekend between two parties this has become a BUCKET FULL. The Tbot EC said that the rules would be inforced at Hill Country. As for the monies sent in please call me. My number is on the Tbot web site. SORRY FOR THIS MESS.
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:11 AM   #7
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So can a stick on elevated rest be used at the Hill Country Shoot or not!If not and it was voted on 2 years ago why were shooters using them last year in this shoot.If this is going to be a rule enforced now me and some others should have been made aware before we sent our $ in.The rules should be clear and enforced the same at every shoot as I expressed in the original thread.I have about 6 shooters going and making plans(took vacation,practicing with certain set-ups)and I am hearing about rules changing or going to be enforced this late!Somebody needs to get their s**t together!
ShaBow, I can understand your furstration, but think about it. Why don't you and your group just tie strings on some broomsticks and come out and win with them. Everybody knows ya'll can do it.
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:30 AM   #8
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Inconsistency, rules left to interpretation or situational enforcement are going to hurt tbot even more.... And with the stepped up attendance this year at the shoots this is just going to snowball.

I think this should be brought to a head before the shoot, before tbot's members start changing plans

Good luck

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Old 03-18-2011, 10:33 AM   #9
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I'm not for one side or another, because I feel like the top shooters will be at the top no matter what they're shooting... But these are the kinda issues that would deter me.... Rules are rules and need to be consistent
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:41 AM   #10
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I'm with John.
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:47 AM   #11
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I feel that this is gonna get ugly, before it gets better..
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:56 AM   #12
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It could, javi, but it dosen't have to. We just go with the bottom line-their shoot, their rules. However, this is a little late for an announcment. I have a friend who had to change her set-up last year (flipper rest had to go ). She may decide to just shoot for fun and not turn her score in (she shoots very low scores) if this would be allowed. But I can see problems with this as well. Not looking forward to breaking the news to her.
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:59 AM   #13
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I think we all know what a mechanical rest is. The problem seems to be the definition of an elevated rest. As I said before, pics with bows using legal style rests would clear this all up and then folks would know for sure...Van

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Old 03-18-2011, 11:03 AM   #14
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Wait, I'm confused. He said "no elevated or mechanical rests". That means off the shelf period. Or does it? Help me out here so I'll know what to tell my friend.
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Old 03-18-2011, 11:12 AM   #15
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Wait, I'm confused. He said "no elevated or mechanical rests". That means off the shelf period. Or does it? Help me out here so I'll know what to tell my friend.
Deb, it sounds as if you can build up the rest (as in add layers) and can build up the strike plate if needed but can't use a flipper or other rests of that type..

Which won't affect me at all, but it will hit a bunch of folks in the gut...
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Old 03-18-2011, 11:15 AM   #16
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Deb, it sounds as if you can build up the rest (as in add layers) and can build up the strike plate if needed but can't use a flipper or other rests of that type..

Which won't affect me at all, but it will hit a bunch of folks in the gut...
Won't affect me, either, I shoot off the shelf. But still...
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Old 03-18-2011, 11:27 AM   #17
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Won't affect me, either, I shoot off the shelf. But still...
Me too and I have no plans to change that unless it is to go to a selfbow and shoot of my knuckle..
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Old 03-18-2011, 11:51 AM   #18
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It would all be a non-issue if the rule was just posted when it was voted on. I don't mind shooting off the shelf at all, this year was my first year to attempt an elevated rest. These are target shooting contest and I setup a target shooting bow to compete in them. I understand some shooters use the same bows for hunting as they do for targets and this rule clearly favors those shooters. It will take an hour or so but I can have my bow shooting off the shelf . I am just sorry that it has blown up like this, and this close to biggest and best shoot that I have been to for TRADITIONAL shooters.
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:21 PM   #19
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I cannot even find this rule on the TBoT website.Maybe some signs or announcements at TBoT shoots last year could have cleared this up for this year.If I was not reading this right now(as Im sure some others are not)and showed up to the shoot with the setup I have been practicing with all year and been DQ'ed after all the time and expense of getting there we would have issues.I have no problem shooting off the shelf if I know ahead of time.If I decide to pull my rest(along with 5 more in my group) and do the shoot it would be BAD if we got there and others were shooting off the rests we had to pull off!Is it Off the Shelf and Only Off THE Shelf or Not?TBoT guidelines say no moving parts. The stick on rest I use has no moving parts.I need a # to call to be sure this is not going to change again before the shoot!

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Old 03-18-2011, 12:36 PM   #20
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Rules are rules and need to be consistent
I don't disagree at all John.

TBoT requires a minimum of three shooters in every group [since there was a huge controversy a couple of years ago at Vanderpool when a guy shot only with his wife (who didn't even shoot) and shot what appeared to everyone a practically impossible score]. Since weíre pinning down rules, if there are two actual shooters and the third party is a wife/girlfriend (who doesn't shoot) tagging along, would that be compliant with the three shooter minimum?

And doesn't Cowtown have this same three shooter minimum requirement as well?
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:39 PM   #21
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TBOT site /Officers page has all contact info.
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:47 PM   #22
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And doesn't Cowtown have this same three shooter minimum requirement as well?
I believe our rule reads 3 in a group and the double scoring also helps . We have also sent a range official with some shooters because their was no one to shoot with them. This usually occurs very early or late to accomodate someones work or church schedule. Occasionally workers will shoot together early so they will be available later in the day when the most shooters are present.

I have let non-competitive shooters go off in a twosome on several occasions though.

What gets me is when someone shoots a round and then based on the score writes a class on the card afterwards. Or when they shoot additional arrows at a target so they can make a better shot on it the next round.

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Old 03-18-2011, 02:22 PM   #23
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The Tbot EC voted on this 2 years ago(This meeting I did not attend) and said that no elevated or mechanical rest would be legal for competition.

Thanks,
Bud Murphy
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That rules out a stick-on rest. You know, the kind that have been in use for 50+ years.

It is a TBOT rule, they make the rules for their shoots. It doesn't effect me, I shoot off the shelf when I shoot, but it is, imo, a silly rule.

Trying to define "traditional" today by ruling out things in use back when "traditional" was all there was.

Just leave off the wheels and run what ya brung.

As someone else mentioned, the best shooters are going to shoot the best, regardless of what rules apply.

If someone thinks they are getting beat because the competition is using an elevated/mechanical rest, I'll break the news to them.

It ain't the equipment beating them.
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Old 03-18-2011, 02:55 PM   #24
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Are the rules written down anywhere? If so, where?
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Old 03-18-2011, 03:44 PM   #25
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I am nowell I'll be shooting meunster just for fun. I'm not changing my competitive setup for one organization at this time for another and having to resituate everything. Too bad too..i wanted to give the okies a legit thrashing :P

This is why I ordered a longbow...

I am not a tbot member and I don't believe my opinion counts for much however I planned on joining at meunster. I understand that it's tbot's choice what equipment is allowed and what isn't and I know someone said it before..it's not the elevated rest that's going to deliver the shot..it's the person pulling the string. I believe the flipper rest or elevated rest idea only hinders attendance and potential new members. Just saying.
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Old 03-18-2011, 05:50 PM   #26
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Keep in mind that TBOT (as are most of our archery organizations) is a non-profit volunteer organization and as such is not going to be perfect. The folks who run this organization donate their time and resources for our benefit. Many sacrifice vacation time that would otherwise be spent in the woods hunting to assist with the operations of the organization. The last several TBOT ballots I received had multiple vacancies, very few contested positions and most of the positions were being filled by the same individuals who donate their time year end and year out.

While I disagree with some of the aspects of the operation of the organization, I personally do not have the time, resources or desire to fulfill any of the thankless positions. As such I find it difficult to criticize their decisions even if I am in opposition of them.

If anyone is worried about the miscommunication of rules, I am sure the EC would welcome your assistance in ensuring that each member has a clear understanding moving forward.
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Old 03-18-2011, 05:56 PM   #27
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As I posted in the past this has been a non-issue, but because of a dispute at a Tbot shoot last weekend between two parties this has become a BUCKET FULL. The Tbot EC said that the rules would be inforced at Hill Country. As for the monies sent in please call me. My number is on the Tbot web site. SORRY FOR THIS MESS.
Fill out your profile so everyone will know who they are calling off of the TBOT list..
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Old 03-18-2011, 06:49 PM   #28
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Wow just joined TBOT cuz i like the people. I am fairly new to shooting a bow and not much competion yet but hopefully that will change. The improvement in my scores will have much more to do with me than the bow in my hands. I agree with Tom D bring what ya got but leave the wheels and sights behind and beat me if you can.
I also shoot in another league that allows any type of traditional setup including elevated rest and such. I see the good shooters in that league win and compete with old fashion wood bow and with modern equipment. It isnt the bow!!! Heck in the last shoot my wife and I went to my wife beat all but one man using a cheap wood bow with wood arrows. It is the man or woman behind the bow that matters. Not the bow
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Old 03-18-2011, 07:32 PM   #29
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Fill out your profile so everyone will know who they are calling off of the TBOT list..
Bud Murphy
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Old 03-18-2011, 07:43 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by TradAg02 View Post
Keep in mind that TBOT (as are most of our archery organizations) is a non-profit volunteer organization and as such is not going to be perfect. The folks who run this organization donate their time and resources for our benefit. Many sacrifice vacation time that would otherwise be spent in the woods hunting to assist with the operations of the organization. The last several TBOT ballots I received had multiple vacancies, very few contested positions and most of the positions were being filled by the same individuals who donate their time year end and year out.

While I disagree with some of the aspects of the operation of the organization, I personally do not have the time, resources or desire to fulfill any of the thankless positions. As such I find it difficult to criticize their decisions even if I am in opposition of them.

If anyone is worried about the miscommunication of rules, I am sure the EC would welcome your assistance in ensuring that each member has a clear understanding moving forward.
I think everyone appreciates the volunteers but having a COMPLETE SET of written rules which can be enforced consistantly at each shoot is not alot to ask out of an organization taking my $ every year!
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Old 03-18-2011, 07:43 PM   #31
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Wow just joined TBOT cuz i like the people. I am fairly new to shooting a bow and not much competion yet but hopefully that will change. The improvement in my scores will have much more to do with me than the bow in my hands. I agree with Tom D bring what ya got but leave the wheels and sights behind and beat me if you can.
I also shoot in another league that allows any type of traditional setup including elevated rest and such. I see the good shooters in that league win and compete with old fashion wood bow and with modern equipment. It isnt the bow!!! Heck in the last shoot my wife and I went to my wife beat all but one man using a cheap wood bow with wood arrows. It is the man or woman behind the bow that matters. Not the bow
Put two shooters of equal talent together... give one a longbow shooting off the shelf and the other a modern aluminum riser long limbed recurve bow shooting a button and an springy and the modern recurve will usually win..

Put the best shooter with a longbow and a marginal shooter with the modern recurve and the best shooter will win hands down.

Equipment does matter, but only at a certain level.. That's why the equipment was invented in the first place; to make it easier to shoot well... If a springy and button wasn't better, we'd all still be shooting off the shelf...
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Old 03-18-2011, 07:47 PM   #32
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I think everyone appreciates the volunteers but having a COMPLETE SET of written rules which can be enforced consistantly at each shoot is not alot to ask out of an organization taking my $ every year!
It ain't a lot of money neither... $15 a year or $30 for 3 years..
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Old 03-18-2011, 07:48 PM   #33
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As I understand it you can build out the riser and build up the shelf
Correct...thats the way Ive been taught by my mentors
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Old 03-18-2011, 08:00 PM   #34
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It ain't a lot of money neither... $15 a year or $30 for 3 years..
Not the point(5 or $500)! Having a consistant set of rules in place and enforcing them is probably the easiest step to ensure smooth operation for any organization and prevents this kinda BS which makes life hard for those volunteers!
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Old 03-18-2011, 08:09 PM   #35
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I have a 50 year old recurve bow with a arrow rest that illegal thats over 50 years old.
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Old 03-18-2011, 08:14 PM   #36
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I think everyone appreciates the volunteers but having a COMPLETE SET of written rules which can be enforced consistantly at each shoot is not alot to ask out of an organization taking my $ every year!
ShaBow I totally agree with rules etched in stone , or carbon, and it will be in place soon as per or conversation today ! All Tbot shoots will follow these rules. thanks
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Old 03-18-2011, 08:16 PM   #37
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Not the point(5 or $500)! Having a consistant set of rules in place and enforcing them is probably the easiest step to ensure smooth operation for any organization and prevents this kinda BS which makes life hard for those volunteers!

Unfortunately most clubs are run by people who volunteer their time and not by business majors.. Even the NFAA has similar problem with rule clarification and they are a much larger and older organization.. One of the major problems in any club is trying to please everyone and ending up pleasing almost no one..

I agree a well written and concise set of rules consistently enforced is always best, but I have rarely seen a club staffed by volunteers that could achieve that.. By the very nature it isnít usually gonna happen.

I just joined TBoT this past week not because Iíll compete that often but because I support their efforts to promote Traditional Archery in Texas. Iím not sure what the solution is and definitely canít predict the outcome of this rule issue but in the end a solution will appear.
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Old 03-18-2011, 08:17 PM   #38
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I have a 50 year old recurve bow with a arrow rest that illegal thats over 50 years old.
What rest would that be?
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Old 03-18-2011, 08:34 PM   #39
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Unfortunately most clubs are run by people who volunteer their time and not by business majors.. Even the NFAA has similar problem with rule clarification and they are a much larger and older organization.. One of the major problems in any club is trying to please everyone and ending up pleasing almost no one..

I agree a well written and concise set of rules consistently enforced is always best, but I have rarely seen a club staffed by volunteers that could achieve that.. By the very nature it isnít usually gonna happen.

I just joined TBoT this past week not because Iíll compete that often but because I support their efforts to promote Traditional Archery in Texas. Iím not sure what the solution is and definitely canít predict the outcome of this rule issue but in the end a solution will appear.
My problem is not with the rule either way.Its with the timing of the enforcement of a new interpretation of a vague rule!
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Old 03-18-2011, 08:46 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by JAVI View Post
Put two shooters of equal talent together... give one a longbow shooting off the shelf and the other a modern aluminum riser long limbed recurve bow shooting a button and an springy and the modern recurve will usually win..

Put the best shooter with a longbow and a marginal shooter with the modern recurve and the best shooter will win hands down.

Equipment does matter, but only at a certain level.. That's why the equipment was invented in the first place; to make it easier to shoot well... If a springy and button wasn't better, we'd all still be shooting off the shelf...
I was going to respond, but you did a much better job of it than I would have.

Dead on !!!!!!!!!!
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Old 03-18-2011, 08:54 PM   #41
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I also agree about it being untimely, but the president has no vote. Still I apologize to everyone on behalf of Tbot and hope that people will continue to support and help us get better .
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Old 03-18-2011, 09:05 PM   #42
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I also agree about it being untimely, but the president has no vote. Still I apologize to everyone on behalf of Tbot and hope that people will continue to support and help us get better .
Hey Bud.

TBoT is an awesome organization.
The support will always be there.

I just feel with the way it has grown over the years, it is time to really get some solid rules in place that are clearly understood.

You have my email, and I will help with anything I can.

Rick
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Old 03-18-2011, 09:28 PM   #43
ShaBow
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Hey Bud.

TBoT is an awesome organization.
The support will always be there.

I just feel with the way it has grown over the years, it is time to really get some solid rules in place that are clearly understood.

You have my email, and I will help with anything I can.

Rick
X2! Bud,I enjoyed talking with you!

Last edited by ShaBow; 03-18-2011 at 09:31 PM.
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Old 03-18-2011, 09:29 PM   #44
Van/TX
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So, what is considered an elevated rest? You say that the shelf can be built up. Built up with what and in what configuration. Can it be built up with a stick on feather rest? Makes no difference to me but it may to others...Van

also X3
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Old 03-18-2011, 09:35 PM   #45
hodat1957
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Thank you Rick
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Old 03-18-2011, 09:39 PM   #46
hodat1957
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So, what is considered an elevated rest? You say that the shelf can be built up. Built up with what and in what configuration. Can it be built up with a stick on feather rest? Makes no difference to me but it may to others...Van

also X3
I hope to have more information Monday or Tuesday. Then I will post what I have learned
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Old 03-18-2011, 09:52 PM   #47
Buff
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What ever rule they want to have at what ever shoot they have suits me....best most fun shoots in the state
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:05 PM   #48
trad"Doc"53
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OK, should but can't stay out of this one. I'm sure I will be misunderstood and get flogged like I did about a comment I put on here about a Daas recurve, but here goes. Rules are rules, so therefore they should be in place and understanable as well as enforced from the time they are put in place with no complacity. That way a person does know up front what to expect. We must keep in mind that if we give here or there to the whims of those that are never satisfied that we will wind up having new classes upon classes which will add many more confuseing rules. Bottom line TO ME is that trad archery is about one's OWN ability to take stick and string and become proficent with THEIR ability, not a bunch of add on crap to try an take shortcuts. I know people are tired of me harping on the TLC, there is not a shoot that is more discriminateing than it, and from what I have heard, it all depends on how hard they want your bow to fit the jig as to whether it is "legal" or not, as well as the 3 finger under thing which they did finally change. I personally don't care if somebody has a stick-on, flipper, dipper whatever rest. I don't care if you shoot 3 under or 4 over, I like wood over metal. I would like to win but it is not necessary. If my style of shooting and equipment isn't legal, I will go someplace where it is. My main reason for doing these shoots is to be with wonderful people,friends,future friends of ALL ages and see youngsters learning how to shoot. I love visiting with the venders and seeing their beautiful works. All this is the high point for me, not the equipment. TBOT is a good organization as well as one of the cheapest you will ever be a member of, and yes it is easy to sit back and chunk rocks when it is not your time being volunteered to keep it up and running. I am very sorry this situation has come up because it will only make some of the newer folks wonder what they have gotten into. Hopefully there will be a satisfactory outcome for most if not all.
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:06 PM   #49
Thumper
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Unfortunately most clubs are run by people who volunteer their time and not by business majors.. Even the NFAA has similar problem with rule clarification and they are a much larger and older organization.. One of the major problems in any club is trying to please everyone and ending up pleasing almost no one..

I agree a well written and concise set of rules consistently enforced is always best, but I have rarely seen a club staffed by volunteers that could achieve that.. By the very nature it isnít usually gonna happen.

I just joined TBoT this past week not because Iíll compete that often but because I support their efforts to promote Traditional Archery in Texas. Iím not sure what the solution is and definitely canít predict the outcome of this rule issue but in the end a solution will appear.
Javi, that's a pretty good post.


We do need to remember TBoT is a bowhunting club run by Bowhunters trying to run a target shoot.....

I was at a meeting where a vote was taken a couple of years ago. I didn't think the elevated part got voted out, just the mechanical part. Put a seal skin rest on the shelf this elevates and it flexes. The Hoyt rest does the same. But the flipper and/or spring button move by mechanical means, this is what I remember getting voted out. It was a compromise. Was it a good one, probably not, but where do you draw that line?

If it were my call alone I'd just make another class for elevated above the shelf rests.
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Old 03-18-2011, 10:11 PM   #50
JEFFRO
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As for me and my family,
we support traditional bowhunters of texas.
There rules and reg's....
We support all the people that give their time away from
family, friends, and hunting,
i find it funny that "people" over the years will bring negitive post's not only to the green screen but other bowhunting web based chat line and never use the t.b.o.t. Page,
we as archers should support not degrade, be positive not negitive, and be proud of a long standing organization like t.b.o.t.

Jeff murray
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