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Old 04-01-2018, 05:43 PM   #1
canny
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Default Help me build my elk arrow

After a change of plans I will be taking my bow along with my rifle in September chasing WY elk. Now I have to look at my arrow setup. First off hereís the bow: Mathews Drenalin 27.5Ē @ 60lbs (50-60). I am currently shooting Axis 400s with 100g fixes heads.

My goal is to build a penetrating arrow. Iím not going to be shooting fast regardless so Iím looking for a good heavy hitter. Iím thinking about the Carbon Express Piledriver 340s which are over spined. But I would use a heavier insert and a 125-150g 2 blade broadhead to bring the spine back into range. My goal is a 500g arrow. However I am open to suggestions.


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Old 04-01-2018, 06:30 PM   #2
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If it was me I'd look at 700+ Grains, 20% FOC and a Single Bevel Broadhead.


http://www.grizzlystik.com/Bowhuntin...roadheads.aspx

I see that the Piledriver doesn't come in a 340 but a 350. spine.
Its says weight forward. not sure what that means.

I used to be a 420 Grain max weight shooter. @ 70# draw that's 6 grains per lb.
my current setup is 554 grain.
I shoot the Goldtip Pro Hunter in a 340 Spine. It weighs 8.9 Grains Per Inch.
I am using a standard Insert with 50 grains screw in weight and a 100 grain broadhead I want to shoot a heavier broadhead but they're hard to find at Walmart, also right now I'm hunting pigs so there's a high arrow loss rate.
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Old 04-01-2018, 06:42 PM   #3
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In as well. Iím at 476 grains and 250 fps with a no cam htx at 73# and 27Ē draw. Shooting axis 340 with 75 grain brass insert and 100 grain head. Iím actually looking for a different shaft thatís as tough but lighter so I can drop overall weight but get higher foc. Iím comfortable shooting out to 80 yards but would like to get some speed back.


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Old 04-01-2018, 06:43 PM   #4
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A 500 grain arrow with your setup is fine. High FOC and a coc broadhead and you are good to go. Good luck.
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Old 04-01-2018, 06:51 PM   #5
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I shoot the Gold Tip Kinetic 300 with a 125 Magnus Buzzcut for elk. They have several options for inserts to get your FOC and overall weight where you want it. I am at about 475 gr. You can also go to a 150 gr. Buzzcut or Stinger head.
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Old 04-01-2018, 06:54 PM   #6
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Go with the .340 Axis, 75gr inserts and 125gr heads. I have similar specs to your Drenalin and this is what Iím shooting. I come in at 505gr.
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Old 04-01-2018, 06:56 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Outlaw_6 View Post
Go with the .340 Axis, 75gr inserts and 125gr heads. I have similar specs to your Drenalin and this is what Iím shooting. I come in at 505gr.


Whatís your Specs?


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Old 04-01-2018, 07:07 PM   #8
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I am at 27.5 DL and around 67 lbs. Killed my elk this year with Goldtip 300, 60 grain insert, 100 grain wacem 4 blade. Quartering away went in back ribs and lodged into off shoulder. Walked 15 yrds and fell over.
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Old 04-01-2018, 07:32 PM   #9
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I am at 27.5 DL and around 67 lbs. Killed my elk this year with Goldtip 300, 60 grain insert, 100 grain wacem 4 blade. Quartering away went in back ribs and lodged into off shoulder. Walked 15 yrds and fell over.


Whatís your finished arrow weight?


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Old 04-01-2018, 07:33 PM   #10
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Look at blackeagle carnivores 300 spine. Use 50gr. Insert. Find youna good 200gr. Single bevel 2 blade.

If arrow is at 27.5 length then arrow will be in the 510gr. Rannge. Foc will be a little over 21%. This is a good weight and foc
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Old 04-01-2018, 07:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
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Whatís your Specs?


Chill X @ 60lb and 27.5Ē DL.
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Old 04-01-2018, 07:57 PM   #12
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Mine calculates at about 455 grains. He was 34 yrds.
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Old 04-01-2018, 11:27 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by canny View Post
After a change of plans I will be taking my bow along with my rifle in September chasing WY elk. Now I have to look at my arrow setup. First off here’s the bow: Mathews Drenalin 27.5” @ 60lbs (50-60). I am currently shooting Axis 400s with 100g fixes heads.
What speed are you getting out of this setup? FMJ's?
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Old 04-02-2018, 08:54 AM   #14
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What speed are you getting out of this setup? FMJ's?


You know I donít remember exactly. They are not FMJs. Just standard Axis Nfused


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Old 04-06-2018, 08:58 AM   #15
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Well here's the updated plan. I did some dynamic spine calculations using the Stu Miller Calculator. My normal set up that I use has a Dynamic Spine of around 410. I figured that I know this spine will work with my set up so I will be building a heavier arrow with the target of around 410. Here's my build specs:

-Carbon Express Maxima Red 350s cut to 28" (normally these would be too stiff)
-100g brass insert (I could have went smaller but I would have had to buy heavier heads and I already have a lot of 100g points)
-100g broadhead (Shuttle T Locks)

This should give me a total arrow weight of 495 grains with 16% FOC and a dymanic spine of 412 which is right on point with what my set-up likes.
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Old 04-06-2018, 10:28 AM   #16
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Vap 350 with SS inserts and a 150-175gr head. I'm shooting a very similar spec'd setup to you(I'll be b/t 55-60lbs and 28" from an Obsession Turmoil RZ), and that's the arrow I'm going to be hunting with this fall(elk and mulies if I draw, and TX deer). With a 125gr head I weight components yesterday at 466. Throw a 150 on and you're at 491, 175gr puts you at 516. FOC should be pretty stout.
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Old 04-06-2018, 10:33 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by quackadikt View Post
Vap 350 with SS inserts and a 150-175gr head. I'm shooting a very similar spec'd setup to you(I'll be b/t 55-60lbs and 28" from an Obsession Turmoil RZ), and that's the arrow I'm going to be hunting with this fall(elk and mulies if I draw, and TX deer). With a 125gr head I weight components yesterday at 466. Throw a 150 on and you're at 491, 175gr puts you at 516. FOC should be pretty stout.
Awesome! I failed to mention that my bow setup will change as I just picked up that Hoyt Defiant in the Classifieds.
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Old 04-06-2018, 10:39 AM   #18
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Awesome! I failed to mention that my bow setup will change as I just picked up that Hoyt Defiant in the Classifieds.
Didn't see that you already built your arrows...My bad!

Forgot to include that I'll probably shoot a 150gr Stinger Buzzcut w/ bleeders. If not, then maybe a 150gr Kudupoint or Cutthroat. I don't know if I'll go to 175 heads just because they're so much harder to find, and aren't cheap when you do.

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Old 04-06-2018, 10:45 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by canny View Post
Well here's the updated plan. I did some dynamic spine calculations using the Stu Miller Calculator. My normal set up that I use has a Dynamic Spine of around 410. I figured that I know this spine will work with my set up so I will be building a heavier arrow with the target of around 410. Here's my build specs:

-Carbon Express Maxima Red 350s cut to 28" (normally these would be too stiff)
-100g brass insert (I could have went smaller but I would have had to buy heavier heads and I already have a lot of 100g points)
-100g broadhead (Shuttle T Locks)

This should give me a total arrow weight of 495 grains with 16% FOC and a dymanic spine of 412 which is right on point with what my set-up likes.

Isnít the Stu calculator for trad shooters
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Old 04-06-2018, 11:03 AM   #20
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Isnít the Stu calculator for trad shooters


It is...but you can use it to compare arrows. Build what you know works...record the dynamic spine then build a new arrow that matches the original dynamic spine. Since I went to a stiffer arrow I needed to know how much weight to add to bring it back down to what my setup likes.


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Old 04-06-2018, 11:38 AM   #21
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Ok. Just info. Compound bows don’t care what spine it is. It’s all in tuning. Underspined arrows don’t group well so that is why we don’t shoot them. Over spine arrows is up to the shooter. A person with good form and grip can shoot a rod. It won’t matter. That is the best part of compounds shot with a release.
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Old 04-06-2018, 11:42 AM   #22
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First off I need to apologize as I made a critical error in that I did not convert the published ASTM spine to AMO Static Spine. This is why the Dynamic spine value was so large. After correcting that mistake I realized that I would need to modify my arrow build.

If I were to use a "normal" factory hunting arrow, Carbon Express Maxima Red 250 @ 28" with a 100g broadhead and the standard 11g insert I would have a dynamic spine of 117.4 and a FOC% of 9.2.

In order to match that dynamic spine with a heavier arrow with more FOC using the components I have I would need to build the following:
Carbon Express Maxima Red 350 cut to 26.5"
Using a 100g broadhead and a 100g insert this would give me a dynamic spine of 117.0. However it would give me a total arrow weight of 486 with 16.5% FOC.
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Old 04-06-2018, 12:42 PM   #23
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ontarget program
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Old 04-06-2018, 12:43 PM   #24
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i did 26 not 26.5 so its off just a bit
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Old 04-06-2018, 12:48 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by enewman View Post
i did 26 not 26.5 so its off just a bit


Also on the Maxima 250 that build is with the standard 11g insert not the 100g. Iíd be curious to what it will show with the Hoyt Defiant I just bought. IBO 331fps with 28Ē draw.


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Old 04-06-2018, 01:01 PM   #26
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Also on the Maxima 250 that build is with the standard 11g insert not the 100g. I’d be curious to what it will show with the Hoyt Defiant I just bought. IBO 331fps with 28” draw.


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which arrow and how long.

i do want to add. programs are a starting point only. i do not believe you can cut the arrow to the length the program states and it is correct. to many variables. this is why i dynamic tune.

i posted a paper on here looking at spine it shows why
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Old 04-06-2018, 01:02 PM   #27
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here is the link

https://1drv.ms/w/s!AtVqxLy9AZcGhTUuQBiHAB9m9LSF
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Old 04-06-2018, 01:06 PM   #28
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witch arrow and how long.

i do want to add. programs are a starting point only. i do not believe you can cut the arrow to the length the program states and it is correct. to many variables. this is why i dynamic tune.

i posted a paper on here looking at spine it shows why
Here's my thought process, hope I can explain it well enough:

First off I dont know how much weight I can add to a stiffer arrow before I have added too much and the arrow has a hard time stabilizing. Knowing this I took what I would consider a "normal, factory" hunting arrow for my draw weight and length which would be the Maxima 250 @ 28". This arrow would have all standard equipment such as the 11g factory nock and a 100g broadhead. I used this info to calculate dynamic spine for that set up. This dynamic spine was then my target for my heavy arrow build. Basically it allowed me to play with shaft spines, insert weights, and broadhead weights to build a heavier arrow that still had the same dynamic spine as the "normal, factory" arrow.
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Old 04-06-2018, 01:43 PM   #29
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nothing wrong with what your doing. there are ways to see if the spine is reacting correctly.

one you can take several bare shafts with different tip weights. set bow up to stating point. back up 10 feet. shoot each arrow through paper. the one with the tear closet to a bullet hole is the arrow reacting the best with that tip weight.

second you can take your bow at starting point and shoot one fletched arrow and one bare shaft and shoot at 20 yards. if bare is low nock high you need more spine. if its high and nock low need more tip weight. this is dynamic reaction tuning.

problem with some of this tuning is its very important to nock tune first or you can get bad results.

one thing I've seen since I've been testing arrows are they are not spine at what they say. this means programs are off. now how far can the be off i don't know. that is testing I'm still doing. tim gillingham told me .030 my ocd wont let me have that. i don't want more then .010 spine difference between the dozen.
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Old 04-06-2018, 01:45 PM   #30
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this method checks reactions

https://1drv.ms/w/s!AtVqxLy9AZcGhAyHZPxIO1153s-d
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Old 04-06-2018, 04:38 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enewman View Post
nothing wrong with what your doing. there are ways to see if the spine is reacting correctly.

one you can take several bare shafts with different tip weights. set bow up to stating point. back up 10 feet. shoot each arrow through paper. the one with the tear closet to a bullet hole is the arrow reacting the best with that tip weight.

second you can take your bow at starting point and shoot one fletched arrow and one bare shaft and shoot at 20 yards. if bare is low nock high you need more spine. if its high and nock low need more tip weight. this is dynamic reaction tuning.

problem with some of this tuning is its very important to nock tune first or you can get bad results.

one thing I've seen since I've been testing arrows are they are not spine at what they say. this means programs are off. now how far can the be off i don't know. that is testing I'm still doing. tim gillingham told me .030 my ocd wont let me have that. i don't want more then .010 spine difference between the dozen.
Nice post
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Old 04-26-2018, 04:28 PM   #32
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Old 04-26-2018, 05:05 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quackadikt View Post
Vap 350 with SS inserts and a 150-175gr head. I'm shooting a very similar spec'd setup to you(I'll be b/t 55-60lbs and 28" from an Obsession Turmoil RZ), and that's the arrow I'm going to be hunting with this fall(elk and mulies if I draw, and TX deer). With a 125gr head I weight components yesterday at 466. Throw a 150 on and you're at 491, 175gr puts you at 516. FOC should be pretty stout.
Got everything put together with 150gr heads and FOC is 19%. Haven't shot them to get speed yet, so not sure what kind of Momentum and KE I'll have, but I'm betting it'll be good enough for what I've got.

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Old 04-26-2018, 06:14 PM   #34
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Got everything put together with 150gr heads and FOC is 19%. Haven't shot them to get speed yet, so not sure what kind of Momentum and KE I'll have, but I'm betting it'll be good enough for what I've got.

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Sounds like some killer sticks! I ended up building mine. Carbon Express Maxima Reds 350 spine cut to 26.5Ē with 100g brass insert and 100g head. FOC around 16% total arrow weight at 495g. Both my Defiant and Drenalin shoot these like darts and they will smack the heck out of the Morrell bag target.


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Old 04-26-2018, 06:30 PM   #35
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I'm thinking they're going to shoot great. Waiting on some 150gr field points to get here so I can give them a test run. I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think to the end of the insert/outsert bthey are 27 or 27Ĺ". I won't start tuning for them until later in the summer. I'm shooting some light 3d arrows right now.

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Old 04-26-2018, 08:30 PM   #36
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After listening to hours of podcast with John Dudley, I think Iím going to keep my foc between 14 and 16% based off what spines best with my arrow. Thatís about what he considers an optimum zone and he keep some velocity. Granted he could easily go a lot higher foc and heavier arrow bc he has a 31.5Ē DL. This coming from a guy that sets his bows up for long range and has no problems killing any animal at 60-70 yards getting pass throughs.


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Old 04-26-2018, 08:47 PM   #37
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Nice to see guys going with more aggressive setups, well done gentleman!


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Old 04-26-2018, 09:31 PM   #38
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Nice to see guys going with more aggressive setups, well done gentleman!


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I agree with more aggressive and foc as well as KE and MOM over speed. Just have to make sure you donít go too far and pas the point of diminishing returns


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Old 04-26-2018, 09:41 PM   #39
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I agree with more aggressive and foc as well as KE and MOM over speed. Just have to make sure you donít go too far and pas the point of diminishing returns


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Yeah I guess some of us just draw the line in the sand in different places.


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Old 04-26-2018, 09:48 PM   #40
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Yeah I guess some of us just draw the line in the sand in different places.


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Thatís really what it comes down to. Personal preference and what you feel confident in. I have a 27Ē draw so I have to draw the line a little sooner. If I had a 29Ē draw Iíd run a little heavier to be at the speed Iím at now and be happy.

But, Iím a firm believer in higher foc for penetration and stability. Kinda depends on the bow and the specs and what you want to do with it. What works for one guy may be too much or too little for another. I am setting my new bow up for 80 yard shots. So Iíd like to keep a tad bit of speed so Iím not adjusting the sight so far from 20 to 80. And I can be a few yards off and still be in the kill zone. 450-475 still isnít a light arrow.

You could always go with a lighter gpi arrow and get more foc and keep the eight the same, but I like super tough arrows that have thicker walls. Again, personal preference.


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Old 04-26-2018, 10:16 PM   #41
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I'm looking at the RMS Cutthroat Single bevels. Lifetime guaranteed and not as brittle as the Grizzly's at half the price
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Old 04-27-2018, 08:42 AM   #42
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I'm thinking Stinger Buzzcuts with bleeders, Cutthroat single bevels, or Kudupoints(also single bevels) for my setup. I've got an elk hunt in Sept, I'll be in Texas trying to kill a couple whitetails in Nov, and have a muley hunt in Jan(and Sept, but I doubt I'll hunt them that month).

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Old 04-27-2018, 09:09 AM   #43
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I use Easton FMJs and Montec G5s.
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Old 04-27-2018, 12:00 PM   #44
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I'm thinking Stinger Buzzcuts with bleeders, Cutthroat single bevels, or Kudupoints(also single bevels) for my setup. I've got an elk hunt in Sept, I'll be in Texas trying to kill a couple whitetails in Nov, and have a muley hunt in Jan(and Sept, but I doubt I'll hunt them that month).

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I'll have to check them out. Right now I'm leaning towards the Shuttle Ts, Ramcat single bevel, or maybe a Strickland Helix if I go 2 blade. All in 100g.
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Old 04-27-2018, 12:10 PM   #45
mathews4life
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I agree, I think it all really depends on what you feel most confident with. Personally, I'm shooting a Halon 6 @ 28.5 DL pullin' 62 lb with the 5mm FMJ which is right about 500 grains and I've had complete pass through's on all the elk I've shot with fixed broad-heads. Arrow speed is 270-272 but packs a good punch. If you're going mid-west area, its not uncommon to take a 60+ yd shot(If your comfortable at that range). I do like to shoot 4 fletch arrows when I go mid-west only because I've been able to get tighter groups with fixed heads out to longer distances. But..... that's what I feel confident in and that's just my two cents. I hope you bring down a monster brother!!! Good luck.
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Old 04-27-2018, 01:05 PM   #46
quackadikt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canny View Post
I'll have to check them out. Right now I'm leaning towards the Shuttle Ts, Ramcat single bevel, or maybe a Strickland Helix if I go 2 blade. All in 100g.
I'm going to stick with a 2 blade just to help with penetration on elk(Magnus will have bleeders). Not as worried about it for deer, to be honest with you. Leaning towards the Cutthroats and Magnus just because of ease of re-sharpening. With the curved blade on the Kudupoints, sharpening is a little tricky and I'm not the world's greatest sharpener. I think the Magnus will give me the best penetration because of the longer profile, and they should all shoot good as long as my bow is tuned.
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Old 04-27-2018, 02:10 PM   #47
canny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quackadikt View Post
I'm going to stick with a 2 blade just to help with penetration on elk(Magnus will have bleeders). Not as worried about it for deer, to be honest with you. Leaning towards the Cutthroats and Magnus just because of ease of re-sharpening. With the curved blade on the Kudupoints, sharpening is a little tricky and I'm not the world's greatest sharpener. I think the Magnus will give me the best penetration because of the longer profile, and they should all shoot good as long as my bow is tuned.
Sounds like a good plan. I have some magnus buzzcut 2 blades, but only thing I don't like is since they are so long they are prone to tips bending if hitting something hard. I have 2 that the tips are curled up on.
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Old 04-27-2018, 02:16 PM   #48
quackadikt
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Quote:
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Sounds like a good plan. I have some magnus buzzcut 2 blades, but only thing I don't like is since they are so long they are prone to tips bending if hitting something hard. I have 2 that the tips are curled up on.
What did you hit to curl the tips??
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Old 04-27-2018, 02:19 PM   #49
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What did you hit to curl the tips??
I don't remember honestly
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Old 04-27-2018, 02:50 PM   #50
muddyfuzzy
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What did you hit to curl the tips??
they are good heads but prone to tip curling.
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