Killing Does

[PowThudBeer]

The thing that i would be worried about having to many does is that they are taking away feed from the bucks and then the bucks may not growth to there potential. So unless you are supplementing lots of food year round (big protein self feeders) then you need to cull does.
Where at in Montague?

Just outside of Ringgold.


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[Darton]

As Dustoffer stated, if you are not a high fence all a survey is going to do is tell you some numbers based off of that particular moment. Without the fence you cannot regulate numbers. I was on a lease growing up that was a wonderful place. Dr Deer got involved and influenced the powers that be to slaughter doe's and so that is what they did. Over 300 the first year on 4500 acres. Result was bucks left to bordering properties in search for doe! On a low fence place it is impossible to get the ratios of 1-1,1-2, 2-1 or the like. A property size of 400 acres cannot really be managed, especially if it is not high fenced. The strategy is to make it more appealing to deer than the other property owners to suck as many as you can to your place.

[Darton]

1. Dumbest thing I've read in a long time to " thin the does to get the bucks to have to chase". Trust me, the bucks are doing all the breeding they want if the property has "too many" does. Chasing doesn't do anything but reduce body condition and make them tired and more susceptible to sickness and predators.

2. Put a sheet of paper and a pencil in every blind this year and note what you see every time you sit. Have everyone do this. Note does, bucks, fawns. You can also note as additional info number of points on the bucks and rough ages.

3. Before next season, do some (3 minimum) spotlight counts on a determined line through the property. Along your spotlight line, check the distance at 90 degrees every 1/10 of a mile both sides of the road. Don't let that distance exceed 250 yards. If it does, just record down 250 yards. Take all those distances and then you will compute the total amount of acreage you are "seeing" on the property. Based on that amount of acreage, you can put in the amount of deer seen on the spotlight counts and get an estimate of how many deer are on the place. Remember, the number you get will be for the estimated number of acres you are seeing on the drive line. if you are only seeing 20 acres and figure to have 10 deer, but have 80 acres total, you can estimate that you have 40 deer. Make sense?

4. In that area, an ideal number is going to be around one deer per 15 acres. All that depends on habitat and other factors though as well. Ideally, you want a 2:1 doe to buck ratio, but good luck with that.....

Solid guidance

[lovemylegacy]

1. Dumbest thing I've read in a long time to " thin the does to get the bucks to have to chase". Trust me, the bucks are doing all the breeding they want if the property has "too many" does. Chasing doesn't do anything but reduce body condition and make them tired and more susceptible to sickness and predators.

2. Put a sheet of paper and a pencil in every blind this year and note what you see every time you sit. Have everyone do this. Note does, bucks, fawns. You can also note as additional info number of points on the bucks and rough ages.

3. Before next season, do some (3 minimum) spotlight counts on a determined line through the property. Along your spotlight line, check the distance at 90 degrees every 1/10 of a mile both sides of the road. Don't let that distance exceed 250 yards. If it does, just record down 250 yards. Take all those distances and then you will compute the total amount of acreage you are "seeing" on the property. Based on that amount of acreage, you can put in the amount of deer seen on the spotlight counts and get an estimate of how many deer are on the place. Remember, the number you get will be for the estimated number of acres you are seeing on the drive line. if you are only seeing 20 acres and figure to have 10 deer, but have 80 acres total, you can estimate that you have 40 deer. Make sense?

4. In that area, an ideal number is going to be around one deer per 15 acres. All that depends on habitat and other factors though as well. Ideally, you want a 2:1 doe to buck ratio, but good luck with that.....

Same way we do spotlight surveys.

[PowThudBeer]

1. Dumbest thing I've read in a long time to " thin the does to get the bucks to have to chase". Trust me, the bucks are doing all the breeding they want if the property has "too many" does. Chasing doesn't do anything but reduce body condition and make them tired and more susceptible to sickness and predators.

2. Put a sheet of paper and a pencil in every blind this year and note what you see every time you sit. Have everyone do this. Note does, bucks, fawns. You can also note as additional info number of points on the bucks and rough ages.

3. Before next season, do some (3 minimum) spotlight counts on a determined line through the property. Along your spotlight line, check the distance at 90 degrees every 1/10 of a mile both sides of the road. Don't let that distance exceed 250 yards. If it does, just record down 250 yards. Take all those distances and then you will compute the total amount of acreage you are "seeing" on the property. Based on that amount of acreage, you can put in the amount of deer seen on the spotlight counts and get an estimate of how many deer are on the place. Remember, the number you get will be for the estimated number of acres you are seeing on the drive line. if you are only seeing 20 acres and figure to have 10 deer, but have 80 acres total, you can estimate that you have 40 deer. Make sense?

4. In that area, an ideal number is going to be around one deer per 15 acres. All that depends on habitat and other factors though as well. Ideally, you want a 2:1 doe to buck ratio, but good luck with that.....

Thanks Hawkpuppy! Good advice.

[mastercraftka]

One buck can on do so many does, you can't tell me that the opportunity of good bucks breeding most of the does is the same if the ratio of bucks to does is 1:5 vs. 1:1.
You most definitely can have too many and it will affect your genetics.

It is a balance make sure the "right" bucks are living and keep the buck to doe ratio in line.

We have 300 acres and 10 years ago at one blind I would see 60 to 100 deer, no lie, 90 % were does and fawns. We starting killing does at about 10 per year and have now have our ratio at about 1:2 and the quality has been tremendous. That same blind I will only see maybe 40 to 50 deer but the quality is much better.

All we do on a small place like that is to all get in the blind on the same hunt and corn the hec out of the roads and we count how many we see total and bucks vs. does. Then we just do the math trying to get it as close to 1:1 as possible. None of these ways are an exact science and you will "never" see all the deer. Getting good numbers also depends on the time of the year make sure you so it when you think you will see the most, for us it is late November up to Christmas.

good luck

[PowThudBeer]

As Dustoffer stated, if you are not a high fence all a survey is going to do is tell you some numbers based off of that particular moment. Without the fence you cannot regulate numbers. I was on a lease growing up that was a wonderful place. Dr Deer got involved and influenced the powers that be to slaughter doe's and so that is what they did. Over 300 the first year on 4500 acres. Result was bucks left to bordering properties in search for doe! On a low fence place it is impossible to get the ratios of 1-1,1-2, 2-1 or the like. A property size of 400 acres cannot really be managed, especially if it is not high fenced. The strategy is to make it more appealing to deer than the other property owners to suck as many as you can to your place.

Darton, that is our strategy right now. The bigger property next door is very thick but has about 100 acres of winter wheat and other pastures for cows mainly. We are planting 3, 1 acres plots with soybeans and other Fall deer varieties that will hopefully pull them over. We've been feeding protein all year as well. Don't know if they are next door or not. We'll see.

[tiberiuswade]

Best way is to get tpwd biologist to come out for spotlight survey they can help you make determination as to how many to take ( think they can also get tpwd to issue your lease more tags), but they would go to landowner who in turn issue them out. I've done this before Goodrich property

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[Hawkpuppy 1]

One buck can on do so many does, you can't tell me that the opportunity of good bucks breeding most of the does is the same if the ratio of bucks to does is 1:5 vs. 1:1.
You most definitely can have too many and it will affect your genetics.

Well, yes and no. First off, we are talking about managing doe numbers, not bucks. Bucks are a whole other discussion. But, since you brought it up, you are right in that a particular buck can only breed X amount of does. However, you mention the "opportunity" of good bucks breeding versus inferior bucks. That theory has been proven many times over that typically the "top bucks" actually breed fewer of the does in a given area as they spend more time fighting off the younger guys and trying to cover more area. It is usually the younger bucks that have been shown to breed more does than the so-called dominant bucks.

Now, that being said, yes, you should still manage your herd for the traits you want. Take out your culls and management bucks pre-rut and it will solve a lot of problems. I HATE when I see places that take out the culls late in the season. That accomplishes really nothing for that year as they have bred does and now you still have that genetic in the oven so to speak.

I always use a "formula" of 25%. I like to see the bottom 25% of each age class, with the exception of yearlings, shot every year. That may sound odd, but it works and I like it. For instance, if you have 10 two year old bucks. All of those are 10 points except two of them. Shoot the 2 that are not 10 points. Same goes for all other age classes except yearlings. Are there any real odd-balls in the herd? Take them out. Everyone is different in what they like, so you make the call on what it is you want on your property. That's why they make chocolate and vanilla.

Leave the yearlings alone. Act as if they don't even exist. As a yearling, there are way too many things that can effect what they look like the first year. Don't make the first cut until at least 2 years of age.

[JayKen86]

We went mld 4 years ago and have been issued 10 doe tags every year on 600 acres in Colorado county and honestly feel like it would help if we could get more. our buck sightings have dramatically increased and we witnessed actual chasing/ rutting activity for the first time last season. We don't discriminate which does we kill, from yearlings to old nannys get shot. We try our best to fill our tags early in the season, the only reason is they get tougher to take out after they've been hunted all season.

[Jakesfish]

You can always start with keeping a notebook in each blind . Each sit write the number of bucks and does you see. Then tally the number of each and divide by the number of blinds. This will give you a rough estimate.

^^^^^^^^^^^ X2, I agree

[Swamprat]

I wish I would see more does. I estimate that for every doe seen, I probably see 5-10 bucks. Most are 2-4yrs old.....I'm not a deer mgmt gurus by any stretch, but it sure does seem that my numbers are quite a bit out of balance.

[Space Ghost]

Thank you Dustoffer! Yes, we hope to hire someone to do a survey next year to know what we are working with.

Give Berry W. A call he'll come right over for a little price.

[tex4k]

My family of "if it's brown, it's down" hunters have been hunting out since back when you couldn't hardly find a deer out here. Deer numbers just keep going up along with deer hunters. I'm not so sure I would take advice about deer management from some of these shade tree deer management guys. After all I can remember when the county commissioners set the bag limits for their counties, Reagan County didn't have a deer season until the late seventies or early eighties, hasn't been that long since Midland County opened. IMO if your gonna manage deer you gotta do it like livestock, and that requires a lot of working with tpwd.

[Hawkpuppy 1]

My family of "if it's brown, it's down" hunters have been hunting out since back when you couldn't hardly find a deer out here. Deer numbers just keep going up along with deer hunters. I'm not so sure I would take advice about deer management from some of these shade tree deer management guys. After all I can remember when the county commissioners set the bag limits for their counties, Reagan County didn't have a deer season until the late seventies or early eighties, hasn't been that long since Midland County opened. IMO if your gonna manage deer you gotta do it like livestock, and that requires a lot of working with tpwd.

And what sir, do you do for a living?