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Old 05-10-2017, 01:59 PM   #1
bloodstick
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Default beginner shooter, questions

Ok,
To start off, I was in Madisonville yesterday and stopped in the shop on 45. I have been seeing posts on trad gear a lot lately and it really got me intrigued. I tried out one of the Ragim Wildcats they sell. I don't know much about any trad gear but it was super fun to shoot. It only took a handful of shots for the Trad bug to bite me It was 60" and 36lbs so it was very easy to draw and shoot without a tab or glove. I was shooting from the shelf one over, three under.
Just playing around with it without any experience at all and i was able to hit a 10" target every shot from 10 yards away. No real groups, just kinda all over the page. I was rather happy just to accomplish hitting the target without a sight.

Now for the questions,
The bow i was shooting (Ragim Wildcat) is that a decent bow? I realize i would need to increase poundage to say, what about 40 or 45# for targets and hunting as a newb? I know the DicksSporting Goods here in the Woodlands sells the Samick Sage. Would that be a better alternative, they are both in the same price range.
Also, my draw length for my compound is 28.5, how does that change going to a trad bow? I normally hunt from an elevated popup. Im not too sure if i could pull off shooting a 60" recurve from an elevated popup window. EDIT: i will not hunt with it right away, need some serious practice first

And lastly, what is the major differences in a longbow and a recurve besides the riser differences? Is one more difficult than the other to shoot?

Last edited by bloodstick; 05-10-2017 at 02:01 PM..
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Old 05-10-2017, 02:09 PM   #2
jerp
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Welcome to the trad side!
I am not familiar with the Ragim bows but the Samick Sage is a great bow for your introduction to trad. My recommendation it to start out with no more than 40# of draw weight. Keep in mind that if you draw 28.5" with a compound, your draw length with a trad bow is likely to be about 2" shorter. Since draw weights are measured at 28" you would actually be pulling around 37# at your draw length (40# bow) Once you get to the point that you have solid repeatable form you can buy heavier limbs for hunting if you want to. In most standard pop ups you will have to slightly cant a 60" bow to get clearance for your top limb. Several companies make a trad version of their blind with more headroom. (a shorter than normal stool helps too)
As far as longbow vs recurve, there are as many opinions on that as there are trad shooters. Once you get the bug you will likely own both so start out with whichever feels comfortable to you.

Last edited by jerp; 05-10-2017 at 02:12 PM..
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Old 05-10-2017, 04:02 PM   #3
CRM_95
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I think the Sage is a really good starter bow. I'm not very familiar with the Ragim bows. It'd be great if you could find somebody close to you that shoots trad to help you on your way. You can do it on your own, but there's a lot of trial and error that way. 40-45 lbs is a good starting weight, and as far as recurves vs longbows, you will never really know which you like best until you shoot both. If you could shoot several different bows somewhere, that would help too...then there's arrows. If you don't have the correct arrows it makes it hard to shoot with any consistency. But once you get a setup you like and get your bow tuned good there's nothing like it. Good luck!! And be careful, it's addictive.
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Old 05-10-2017, 04:02 PM   #4
bloodstick
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Thanks Jerp, I will probably go with the Samick since it is so widely liked.
So hypothetically, couldn't i get a 45# bow if at my draw length will be pulling a few pounds less? It would put me closer to 40# real weight correct?
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Old 05-10-2017, 04:05 PM   #5
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Thanks CRM. I will be sure to look around some more and deff do more research before getting down to the specifics. I'm sure i will have more questions as i go.
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Old 05-10-2017, 04:15 PM   #6
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Just googled the Ragim Wildcat. Looks like a Samick knockoff... (looks awfully like a Polaris) or might even be made by Samick and rebranded (they do that!)

I also didn't realize that the ****'s in the Woodlands Mall sold Sages. Good to know. The last thing I bought there was a pair of rollerblades.

I'd personal go with the Samick Sage. Your draw length is going to be around 27-28" would be my guess. The draw weight for mass produced bows are marked for 28" draw and are usually +/- 2#s from there... plus 2# per inch up/down you go. Figure if you are going to buy 40# limbs, YOU will draw about 40#.

The Sages run about $130 new, the Limbs somewhere around $75. When I got into it, I bought a 40# bow and then 6 months or so later bought 50# limbs to hunt with. You should be able to sell a sage used for about $100.

You will however need more than just a bow. The string that comes with the sage work fine, but they aren't the best, you will likely want to upgrade it (can run you between $15 and $20 for a fast flight Flemish string.) You will need to put a strike plate/shelf on it - another $6 or so. You will want a tab or glove to shoot with ($20 or so) and then you will need to get some arrows to shoot with at the onset. Your first set will just need to get you in the ballpark for tune until you get the hang of shooting a traditional bow (ie developing good form and finding a consistent anchor while holding 30-40#s)

Finding somebody nearby to shoot with is a great idea. I'm guessing if you frequent The Woodlands, then you aren't too terribly far from several of us on here, including myself.

Last edited by SwampRabbit; 05-10-2017 at 04:18 PM..
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Old 05-10-2017, 04:16 PM   #7
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Ha ha... it censored dicks.

edit: I guess it is okay to pluralize it... just not possessive.
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Old 05-10-2017, 04:22 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodstick View Post
Thanks Jerp, I will probably go with the Samick since it is so widely liked.
So hypothetically, couldn't i get a 45# bow if at my draw length will be pulling a few pounds less? It would put me closer to 40# real weight correct?
Go 40# limbs or lighter to start out.

Nobody knows that your draw length really is... everybody would be speculating. There is no set rule of what Compound->Trad draw length will be. For instance, I went from 27.5->27. I know guys that went more, less, or the same. It is all about what anchor you used when shooting a compound, D-loop length, and release used VS where you anchor when you pull on a trad bow.
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Old 05-10-2017, 04:34 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwampRabbit View Post
Go 40# limbs or lighter to start out.

Nobody knows that your draw length really is... everybody would be speculating. There is no set rule of what Compound->Trad draw length will be. For instance, I went from 27.5->27. I know guys that went more, less, or the same. It is all about what anchor you used when shooting a compound, D-loop length, and release used VS where you anchor when you pull on a trad bow.
Thanks for clearing that up. On my compound, my knock sits in the corner of my lip. The D loop isn't very long. I tried to replicate that when i shot yesterday with the Ragim. I shot one over, three under and tried to hook my index finger in corner of my lip and my thumb to the corner of my jaw. It felt strange probably because i'm not used to it. Im used to my hand being a little further back.


and FYI I live between huntsville and BCS.
Once i get my gear setup, i need to invite some guys out to shoot a little. Maybe burn some meat on the grill and enjoy a few adult beverages
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Old 05-10-2017, 04:35 PM   #10
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[quote=SwampRabbit;12417305]Just googled the Ragim Wildcat. Looks like a Samick knockoff... (looks awfully like a Polaris) or might even be made by Samick and rebranded (they do that!)

I also didn't realize that the ****'s in the Woodlands Mall sold Sages. Good to know. The last thing I bought there was a pair of rollerblades.

I'd personal go with the Samick Sage. Your draw length is going to be around 27-28" would be my guess. The draw weight for mass produced bows are marked for 28" draw and are usually +/- 2#s from there... plus 2# per inch up/down you go. Figure if you are going to buy 40# limbs, YOU will draw about 40#.

The Sages run about $130 new, the Limbs somewhere around $75. When I got into it, I bought a 40# bow and then 6 months or so later bought 50# limbs to hunt with. You should be able to sell a sage used for about $100.

You will however need more than just a bow. The string that comes with the sage work fine, but they aren't the best, you will likely want to upgrade it (can run you between $15 and $20 for a fast flight Flemish string.) You will need to put a strike plate/shelf on it - another $6 or so. You will want a tab or glove to shoot with ($20 or so) and then you will need to get some arrows to shoot with at the onset. Your first set will just need to get you in the ballpark for tune until you get the hang of shooting a traditional bow (ie developing good form and finding a consistent anchor while holding 30-40#s)

Finding somebody nearby to shoot with is a great idea. I'm guessing if you frequent The Woodlands, then you aren't too terribly far from several of us on here, including myself.[/QUOTE

I know Dicks sells them online so i just assumed they sell them in store too? I work just around the corner from there so i need to get in and see.
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Old 05-10-2017, 04:38 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodstick View Post
Thanks for clearing that up. On my compound, my knock sits in the corner of my lip. The D loop isn't very long. I tried to replicate that when i shot yesterday with the Ragim. I shot one over, three under and tried to hook my index finger in corner of my lip and my thumb to the corner of my jaw. It felt strange probably because i'm not used to it. Im used to my hand being a little further back.


and FYI I live between huntsville and BCS.
Once i get my gear setup, i need to invite some guys out to shoot a little. Maybe burn some meat on the grill and enjoy a few adult beverages
I'm in Crockett. They still have the indoor 3d range at Archery World in Madisonville? If so we can meet up over there and shoot one day if you want to. I'll try to help you out as much as I can. Which probably ain't much, but I'll try.
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Old 05-10-2017, 04:57 PM   #12
bloodstick
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Originally Posted by CRM_95 View Post
I'm in Crockett. They still have the indoor 3d range at Archery World in Madisonville? If so we can meet up over there and shoot one day if you want to. I'll try to help you out as much as I can. Which probably ain't much, but I'll try.

They sure do. There is a mobile indoor range with moving 3D targets, two standard indoor ranges, and two outdoor stationary 3D ranges. One elevated and one on the ground shooting out of a Hercules box blind.
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Old 05-10-2017, 05:10 PM   #13
SwampRabbit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodstick View Post
Thanks for clearing that up. On my compound, my knock sits in the corner of my lip. The D loop isn't very long. I tried to replicate that when i shot yesterday with the Ragim. I shot one over, three under and tried to hook my index finger in corner of my lip and my thumb to the corner of my jaw. It felt strange probably because i'm not used to it. Im used to my hand being a little further back.


and FYI I live between huntsville and BCS.
Once i get my gear setup, i need to invite some guys out to shoot a little. Maybe burn some meat on the grill and enjoy a few adult beverages
A couple quick pointers for the next time. You are describing shooting "split fingered" That is, index finger above nock, then TWO fingers under. You shouldn't need to get your pinky involved.

When you get a tab or glove, make sure you hook the string with a "deep" hook. That is in the first joint from your finger tips. Don't hold the string with the pads of your fingers.
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Old 05-10-2017, 05:28 PM   #14
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If you have not already done so, read the beginner's guide "Stickys". It will help with basic concepts and terminology we all use around here.
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Old 05-10-2017, 05:30 PM   #15
bloodstick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwampRabbit View Post
A couple quick pointers for the next time. You are describing shooting "split fingered" That is, index finger above nock, then TWO fingers under. You shouldn't need to get your pinky involved.

When you get a tab or glove, make sure you hook the string with a "deep" hook. That is in the first joint from your finger tips. Don't hold the string with the pads of your fingers.
Thanks,
I'll remember about that pinky finger.
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Old 05-11-2017, 07:34 AM   #16
singlearrow
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodstick View Post
Ok,
To start off, I was in Madisonville yesterday and stopped in the shop on 45. I have been seeing posts on trad gear a lot lately and it really got me intrigued. I tried out one of the Ragim Wildcats they sell. I don't know much about any trad gear but it was super fun to shoot. It only took a handful of shots for the Trad bug to bite me It was 60" and 36lbs so it was very easy to draw and shoot without a tab or glove. I was shooting from the shelf one over, three under.
Just playing around with it without any experience at all and i was able to hit a 10" target every shot from 10 yards away. No real groups, just kinda all over the page. I was rather happy just to accomplish hitting the target without a sight.

Now for the questions,
The bow i was shooting (Ragim Wildcat) is that a decent bow? I realize i would need to increase poundage to say, what about 40 or 45# for targets and hunting as a newb? I know the DicksSporting Goods here in the Woodlands sells the Samick Sage. Would that be a better alternative, they are both in the same price range.
Also, my draw length for my compound is 28.5, how does that change going to a trad bow? I normally hunt from an elevated popup. Im not too sure if i could pull off shooting a 60" recurve from an elevated popup window. EDIT: i will not hunt with it right away, need some serious practice first

And lastly, what is the major differences in a longbow and a recurve besides the riser differences? Is one more difficult than the other to shoot?
From the picture, Samick Sage look a lot stronger. I am not sure if the Ragim can handle hunting draw weight. I have been shooting Samick Sage/Journey for more than two years. I have no plan to change it.
It's possible that your draw length with recurve will be longer. People shoot differently. Prepare everything for longer draw length is a good idea. My recurve draw length is longer and it keep expanding for awhile. A short bow can(possible) put your draw length under limit. If that happens, it will be difficult to get your true draw length. FYI, I can pull my Samick Sage 40 lb to 30 in. I don't feel anything unusual. I am a small person( and not strong).
I shoot Samick Sage/Journey with Hoyt Super Rest. This rest allows me to shoot my left over compound bow arrows which come with plastic vanes.
Search on internet about the difference between recurve and long bow. You will get a lot info.
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Old 05-11-2017, 08:59 AM   #17
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Go to a trad shoot and meet people, see what they shoot, talk about different equipment and styles.
Come to Chester, May 20-21. Chester is located approx 70-80 miles northeast of Houston
Email me and I will send you a flyer
bdecker@nederlandisd.org
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Old 05-11-2017, 09:49 AM   #18
bloodstick
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Originally Posted by BillDecker View Post
Go to a trad shoot and meet people, see what they shoot, talk about different equipment and styles.
Come to Chester, May 20-21. Chester is located approx 70-80 miles northeast of Houston
Email me and I will send you a flyer
bdecker@nederlandisd.org
Thanks for the invite Bill, but i will be out of town those two days unfortunately.
I'll try to stop in at any trad shoots nearby whenever i can.

Thanks for all the help and tips fellas. I appreciate it
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Old 05-11-2017, 10:04 AM   #19
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I'm still a trad beginner. I bought a Sage and like it a lot. It's great that you can buy new limbs to increase the draw weight.
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Old 05-11-2017, 10:44 AM   #20
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I have a 45lb sage with a new custom string from DanielB89 I will sell you at a fair price if your interested.

Sent from my SM-J710MN using Tapatalk
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Old 05-11-2017, 10:45 AM   #21
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I think you will really like the Sage. The one I have and most of the ones I have seen shot are real shooters. I like it almost as much as my custom bows. I do think you may want to consider getting another bowstring for it. I am also not familiar with the Ragim Wildcat. Start with no more than 40 lb limbs as the others have said. Please do not overbow yourself initially as that alone can kill your interest in shooting a traditional bow. The great thing about the Sage is that you can get a new set of limbs for $75.00 so you can work your way up in poundage as you progress. Work on form and accuracy with the lower poundage until you get comfortable and then settle in on a weight that is comfortable for you. I am sure you can find someone in your area to mentor you. Tuning of the arrow and bow is critical to good arrow flight and when you are by yourself, it is a lot, I SAY A LOT, of trial and error. You should take Bill Decker up on his invite to Chester. There are a lot of good shooters there and lots of people who would be willing to give you some pointers. It is a lot of fun. Good luck and welcome to the Traditional side of archery.
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Old 05-11-2017, 10:58 AM   #22
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As others have said go with the Sage. I've got a 35lb one that was essentially my beginners bow after I bought a 45lb Journey that was too much bow for me. I hung onto the Sage and still use it several times a year for form work or whenever I feel that something just isn't "right" in my shooting.

Richard.
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Old 05-11-2017, 05:11 PM   #23
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Thank you for all the info guys. I would love to take up Bill's offer and go to the shoot but i will be out of town that weekend.

DRT, I shot you a PM.
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