Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The definitive Single Vs. Multiple Pin thread.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    The definitive Single Vs. Multiple Pin thread.

    Adjustable, moveable, sliders, single pin; call 'em what you will but these sights have made a big impact in target archery. And now it seems they are making a big impact on our hunting as well.

    It wasn't long ago that you would be hard pressed to find an adjustable sight made for bow hunting; now just about every sight manufacturer has a model and some have abandoned all other accessories to build only sights!

    Common questions we hear are, "How many have tried sliders but gone back to fixed pins?", or "Who has tried single pins sights and liked them?"

    What we really want to know is, "Are they worth the money and do they work"?

    Let's go back in time. Single pin, movable sights are an offshoot of target archery, where repeatability in a sight is paramount. Shot after shot the sight must be stable, repeatable and easy to adjust for variables during a competition.

    Single pin, adjustable sights fit this bill very well. While they remained a mainstay in target archery they didn't quite fit the bill for the larger hunting crowd. The main reason being durability. The small pin was easily damaged, the small scope and housing was not much protection, the scope rod, or threaded connector, was small and easily damaged, extreme range adjustments required a lot of time to make or were noisy and a whole host of other things made them less than desirable for hunting.

    Some of us used our target archery sights and made custom pin housings for hunting in an effort to get the accuracy in the field we enjoyed at competition. We made PVC scope housings, we cannibalized other sights to build a better adjustable hunting sight and on and on...

    Thankfully, we no longer need to go to such extremes to have a quality adjustable sight that is tough enough for hunting.

    With the question of accuracy and repeatability out of the way the real question is:

    Are they tough enough?
    The answer is yes, but with a caveat. Like any precision instrument, they can be damaged; and more easily than their fixed pin brothers in many cases. Of course some companies build a bomb proof product (Spot Hogg, MBG etc.) and some build one that needs a lighter hand. They are all built to do the job (within reason) but some are better built to handle abuse.

    Also remember, they have moving parts; so regular maintenance is required, especially cleaning. Fixed pin sights do not need this but there is nothing worse than an adjustable sight that will not budge due to dirt build up in the mechanism.

    Next topic: How do they work?

    #2
    I've been thinking about switching to a 3-pin slider. I'm thinking that would give me the best of both worlds.... Fixed pin simplicity for 20-30-40 yards, and then adjustable bottom pin for longer shots (like if I was ever hunting elk spot and stalk and wanted to shoot 50-75 yards).

    Comment


      #3
      I was using a 5 pin slider. 20 to 50 yards. Bottom pin I put at the bottom and that was my 60 plus. Did this for stalking. But hunting pigs at night got where I was having problems. Eyes going bad. So now I have a two pin. Top pin is 0 to 60 yards. Bottom pin 65 plus



      Good write rat

      Comment


        #4
        How do they work?

        How do movable pin sights work?

        They work great! Yea, not what you meant right.
        Basically you have a pin affixed to a scope or housing and the pin doesn't move within the housing like a traditional multiple pin sight.

        There is an indexed (indexed with yardage) wheel that is rotated to select the target yardage; rotating this wheel or thumb screw moves the whole scope (with the pin) up or down to reference the indexed yardage. Make sense?

        One pin (in the scope or housing) moves up and down to cover multiple yardages.

        Sometimes, in lieu of a wheel, there is a pointer at the rear of the sight bracket or a rod used with the index finger of the grip hand; the job is the same, to move the pin to adjust for yardage.

        This is very important when thinking about movable pin sights depending on your style of hunting. Things to consider...

        Do you hunt with a bow mounted quiver? A forward mounted wheel may not be visible with a quiver or, a rear mounted wheel may not allow the quiver to attach to your liking. Think about how you will adjust the sight with the quiver mounted keeping in mind you also need to have a good line of sight to the tape.

        Sitting or stalking? Blind hunters may not need the ability to make on-the-fly adjustments like spot and stalk hunters. Having a sight that is adjustable at full draw may seem like a non-issue to a blind hunter but may be the deciding factor for a spot and stalk hunter. You must consider how you hunt and make the best determination for your style of hunting. I like the forward wheel myself, but I am also aware that I may miss a shot by not being able to make an adjustment while at full draw; I'm okay with that trade off, you may not be.

        Where is the tape? The index can be located inboard, outboard or both. Look at what is available to see if there is something better to fit your needs. If you want to be able to make adjustments at full draw you may want the tape inboard so you can see it through the peep when you make adjustments.

        Also, the tape color makes a difference and maybe whether or not it is glow-in-the-dark. It can be hard to see a tape in low light conditions sitting in a dark blind.

        Smooth adjustment or click adjustment? Sights will generally have two types of adjustment. Smooth and Click. Many have a smooth rough adjustment and then a click micro adjustment; others may have a click adjustment on both smooth and micro adjustment. For hunting sights the micro adjust feature is less used than in competition. But it is very useful for indexing the sight for variables. For instance, if it is raining I can shoot my 20 yard setting and I may need to adjust up 4 clicks to make it perfect. Then, once in the field, I know I will need to adjust up a few clicks (or hold over) for whatever yardage I am shooting. Extreme elevation changes can also account for your equipment being off; use the micro adjustments to account for this.

        Accuracy and repeatability, Circling back to this suffice it to say that virtually all modern movable sights are going to be more accurate and repeatable than their fixed pin brothers all else being equal, which it usually isn't.

        Next: Set up.

        Comment


          #5
          Movable Pin Set Up.

          How difficult are movable pin sights to set up? Contrary to the popular thinking, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to set up a movable pin sight; in fact, you only need to be able to count to the longest distance you want to shoot.

          How long does it take to set up a slider? That depends on the shooter and the sight. I can set up a slider that comes with factory tape in about 30-35 minutes. I can set up a slider using an archery program like Archer's Advantage, a good scale and chronograph, in a little less time, say 20-25 minutes.

          Compare that to how long it takes you to set up a fixed pin sight and you can see that there isn't much of a difference in the time it takes. Especially when you can shoot out to 100+ yards with the slider and you would need to set up eight pins on your fixed pin sight!

          Of course, setting one up for the first timer will take longer than my posted times, but still, it's a one time investment of labor plus, who doesn't like tinkering with new gear?

          Tapes? Print tapes, order factory tapes, scales, chronographs: whaaaaaat? It's okay, just breath; all you really need is some masking tape and a pencil... You don't NEED to have all the fancy tape for your index, but it is easier. You can just shoot in the sight for each yardage out to as far as you are willing, or able, to shoot. Use a pen to make the marks on your masking tape for your index. This will at least get you started until you can get some pre-printed tapes ordered.

          While we are on set up let's talk about mounting options.

          Dovetail versus fixed. I like a dove tail mount for two reasons: 1) it is easy to remove for transporting and to make adjustments (like adding a new tape) 2) it is easy to adjust the distance to get the perfect fit with my peep.

          Fixed has some advantages, namely: 1) more compact design sits closer to the riser 2) no adapter needed for the bow mounted quiver.

          The long bar dovetail has one other advantage. The farther away from the peep the scope is the more accurate you will be. If you are moving to a slider pin sight for accuracy then a long bar dovetail should be considered. Chances are it will not stick out past your stabilizer and definitely not past your arrow; so the odds of it being 'in the way' are largely in our heads and have no place in the real world.

          Next: Scope Options

          Comment


            #6
            Thanks! Nice job.

            Comment


              #7
              Scope Options

              If you can think of it, they probably have it! Back in the day, Classic Scope was really the only game in town for good quality aftermarket scopes. Now there are a truck load of scopes in every configuration you can imagine, almost.

              Cross hair, dots, fiber, clarifiers lenses, hoods, lights, shaded reticle even holo sight scopes! What works for you depends on your hunting style. For me, I like the single pin, bottom mount, 1 5/8 scope with a good hood and a fiber optic pin in .010 size, green.

              But this is only one of hundreds of configurations!

              Now let's talk about multiple pin scopes. The name of this thread is Single Vs. Multiple pin sights, but I only used that because it is still common to call movable pin sights "single pin". The fact is, there are numerous models of "Multiple Pin Movable Sights" on the market now. These are specifically tailored for the hunters. You can have any number of fixed pins, say 20-30-40-50 and then have an index that lets you move the reference pin to anything in-between, below or above these yardages. It truly is the best of both worlds.

              A word of caution here; one of the great benefits of a single pin movable sight is the uncluttered sight picture. Do yourself a favor, before you buy a multiple pin movable sight shoot a single pin first; you may be amazed at the difference it makes. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but give yourself a chance to see the difference before you buy.

              Scope size
              Size matters, just ask anyone! The larger the scope the larger your field of view, if that matters to you. I like a larger field of view for hunting and a smaller for target. The size of the scope will matter for your peep size; a larger peep needs a larger scope or the scope needs to be moved closer to the peep (remember what we said earlier about being more accurate the farther away the scope is from the peep?). This is important to have a large enough peep to allow for low light shooting so you need to match up the scope size to the peep size.

              Pin Orientation
              I like to shoot with one pin mounted to the bottom of the scope. In this configuration the pin 'leg' seems to disappear when I put the dot on the animal; maybe it blends with the leg or something, I don't know, but it works for me. I know guys who shoot with a single fiber dot and who shoot with the pin affixed to the top of the housing; whatever works for you.

              Scope Ring
              The side that faces the shooter is called the scope ring or shooter ring. On many scopes this is a threaded ring and can be sued to hold any number of accessory rings. I like to have a nice colorful ring of Chartreuse on my shooter ring; some use white, green, yellow, orange, red the list goes on and on. Whatever color works for you use it; the contrasting color will help to quickly center the scope in the peep and keep it there.

              Lights
              Our eyes work by processing light waves as they bounce and refract off of and through objects; our brains process this information and turn it into a visual spectrum that we can then reference. Light plays an important role in how we shoot. Other than the obvious fact that light is needed in low light or dark conditions it can also help us be more accurate in the broad daylight.

              If we are dependent on light for all this to work then it is logical that the changing light also can play tricks on our brains. A morning sun is different than an afternoon sun in intensity and angle; this could be causing accuracy decay and we don't even know it! An easy way to correct for varying light conditions is to have alight on all the time that never varies! A good hood is required for this to work properly and a good light; but if used correctly this could take away those days when you just can't seem to get far enough to the left to get that bullseye. Remember, if you are switching to get the most accuracy you can don't just dismiss stuff like this; it may not work for you but, you should at least consider it if you are striving to be as accurate as you can.

              Clarifiers
              Clarifiers are lenses attached to the scope house on the front of the scope (the side away from the shooter). They help to clarify the target and many times shooters use them to magnify the target. If you are wanting to try this I would suggest starting with a small power lens and working your way up in power. If you start with a 4x lens you may start to suffer from target panic (due to the large perception of movement) and no one wants that. Most hunters are okay with a 2x lens, they just need a little something to clear up the target. There are also companies, like Classic Archery that will grind your scope lens to your prescription if you wear glasses' pretty cool eh?

              While we are talking about clarifiers let's touch on verifiers. If you are having trouble with blurry pins you need a verifier; this is a small lens that goes in the peep sight to help clear up the fuzzy pin. Fuzzy pin verifier, fuzzy target clarifier. You can not use a clarifier and a verifier together and if you have an astigmatism you may not be able to use a verifier; some can, some can't. I am in the can't category.

              Everything else is pretty common knowledge; so let's talk specific brands, if ya want.

              Comment


                #8
                In recent history the two sights I have used are the Axcel Sight and the Spot Hogg.

                I have use the Axcel for target and love the X-41 scope; it has a nifty built-in torque indicator.

                http://www.axcelsights.com/index.html

                My favorite hunting sight is the Spot Hogg Hogg Father; I have used many of the Spot Hogg sights over the years and they are built tough, and heavy!

                http://spot-hogg.com/sights/

                I like the single pin configuration.

                Classic Archery has many scope options and accessories, plus they have the best lenses hands down. These are quality glass Zeiss lenses, not plastic. They also now have their own sights! Never used the sights but if they are to the same quality that the scopes are then they will be lights out fantastic.

                http://www.classicarchery.com/default.asp

                What about weight?
                I like weight (more correctly mass); weight does many things for the archer. Mass helps to hold steady better, absorbs more vibration (thereby dampening sound) and have a better follow through. I like my bows full tilt to be about 7.5pounds give or take. Now, I know everyone on the boards spends all their time in Colorado lugging their bows after Elk for 20 miles a day every year; whatever. I would rather have a pound on my bow and leave something else out of my pack; If accuracy is paramount then mass is your friend. I'm not advocating you carry around a 20 pound bow, but let's be sensible, you could loose a few pounds off of your waistline and make a bigger difference than trying to shave 3 ounces off of your sights; well, I could anyway.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Shane View Post
                  I've been thinking about switching to a 3-pin slider. I'm thinking that would give me the best of both worlds.... Fixed pin simplicity for 20-30-40 yards, and then adjustable bottom pin for longer shots (like if I was ever hunting elk spot and stalk and wanted to shoot 50-75 yards).
                  You can also use the reference pin for gap shooting; like at 25, 35 or 45 yards. The reference pin isn't just for shooting past your fixed pin range, but for ANY range on the tape; even very close which could come in handy for a 3D tournament.

                  But yes, it would give you the best of both worlds and they are gaining in popularity.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Spot Hogg, Hogg Father, Dovetail mount, long bar.

                    Last edited by Rat; 12-29-2015, 03:11 PM.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Rear mounted dial, HHA Sports, Optimizer Ultra

                      Last edited by Rat; 12-29-2015, 03:16 PM.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I switched to a single, HHA , and couldn't be happier ! I like having one pin to worry about, or see through. It has helped me shrink groups down and be far more confident when it's time to take the shot.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Sight Tape inboard, Black Gold, Ascent Verdict.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Copper John, Mark IV, Slider

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Copper John, Mark IV, Slider, Multi Pin.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X