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Old 08-05-2019, 06:27 PM   #1
JLivi1224
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Default OH - local Leo failure, yet again!

All the signs were there!

https://www.daytondailynews.com/news...rsqOI/amp.html
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Old 08-05-2019, 07:20 PM   #2
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Wow. Mental health is a huge issue. We do not treat it. We medicate it and can not force anyone to take the meds. Look at Austin. Austin state hospital medicates individuals to where they appear to be ok and then let them out. Nowhere to go and no money and they stop taking meds, next think you have is a bunch of homeless mental patients running around town
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Old 08-05-2019, 07:39 PM   #3
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Not sure about blaming the LEO's. Most doctors cannot talk about their patients. Do you listen to a bunch of teenagers about a person they do not trust. Tough situation for all involved. I have no answers.
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Old 08-05-2019, 08:07 PM   #4
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And he was walking out there amongst them.

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Old 08-05-2019, 08:19 PM   #5
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Not sure about blaming the LEO's. Most doctors cannot talk about their patients. Do you listen to a bunch of teenagers about a person they do not trust. Tough situation for all involved. I have no answers.
No, but someone should have mentioned something to someone to get the help he needed. I do not know the whole story such as was there medication he dod not take or stopped taking? Hippa las can be a pain however, Drs know what is right and wrong
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Old 08-05-2019, 08:30 PM   #6
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No, but someone should have mentioned something to someone to get the help he needed. I do not know the whole story such as was there medication he dod not take or stopped taking? Hippa las can be a pain however, Drs know what is right and wrong
It's not right are wrong. Dr's lips have to be sealed.
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Old 08-05-2019, 08:34 PM   #7
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Wow. Mental health is a huge issue. We do not treat it. We medicate it and can not force anyone to take the meds. Look at Austin. Austin state hospital medicates individuals to where they appear to be ok and then let them out. Nowhere to go and no money and they stop taking meds, next think you have is a bunch of homeless mental patients running around town
Man you ain't kidding. I'm here now for some Osha training. There's about a dozen or so camped out behind the 7-11 across from the hotel. Staring at the trees, talking, but to no one, just sitting in the dirt, etc..
Not like the hippie transit type, these are smooth off their rocker.
#Howard&35
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Old 08-05-2019, 09:28 PM   #8
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Wow. Mental health is a huge issue. We do not treat it. We medicate it and can not force anyone to take the meds. Look at Austin. Austin state hospital medicates individuals to where they appear to be ok and then let them out. Nowhere to go and no money and they stop taking meds, next think you have is a bunch of homeless mental patients running around town
Sadly, i had Cousin-n-law, if you will, take his own life in a scenario like this.
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Old 08-05-2019, 10:26 PM   #9
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No easy legal answer. Problem dramatized in movie "Minority Report", where savant beings could see into the future and tell who would commit crimes.

Can't actually see into the future.

Yet, this impending "red flag" legislation will no-doubt attempt to predict who is a danger and, therefore, immediately stripped of due process as weapons are confiscated (probably in no-knock, battering-ram raids). Will these be prompted by mad ex-wives/-girlfriends, strangers taking behavior out of context... or what?
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Old 08-05-2019, 10:43 PM   #10
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Default Every Mass Shooting has Something in Common

and it's not weapons.

https://www.ammoland.com/2013/04/eve...#ixzz5vanIKJxr

"Read more: https://www.ammoland.com/2013/04/eve...#ixzz5vmzUPFBc
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"The overwhelming evidence points to the signal largest common factor in all of these incidents is the fact that all of the perpetrators were either actively taking powerful psychotropic drugs or had been at some point in the immediate past before they committed their crimes."
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Old 08-05-2019, 11:25 PM   #11
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No easy legal answer. Problem dramatized in movie "Minority Report", where savant beings could see into the future and tell who would commit crimes.

Can't actually see into the future.

Yet, this impending "red flag" legislation will no-doubt attempt to predict who is a danger and, therefore, immediately stripped of due process as weapons are confiscated (probably in no-knock, battering-ram raids). Will these be prompted by mad ex-wives/-girlfriends, strangers taking behavior out of context... or what?

Red flag laws usurp due process. Slippery slope. This can easily be abused.
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Old 08-05-2019, 11:27 PM   #12
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and it's not weapons.

https://www.ammoland.com/2013/04/eve...#ixzz5vanIKJxr

"Read more: https://www.ammoland.com/2013/04/eve...#ixzz5vmzUPFBc
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
Follow us: @Ammoland on Twitter | Ammoland on Facebook

"The overwhelming evidence points to the signal largest common factor in all of these incidents is the fact that all of the perpetrators were either actively taking powerful psychotropic drugs or had been at some point in the immediate past before they committed their crimes."
Johnathan Gilliam talked about it on david Webb’s show today. It was the first mention I’ve heard of it on any large platform.
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Old 08-06-2019, 06:21 AM   #13
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If they have found you to have a "hit list" or "rap* list". You are subsequently kicked out of school for a period of time because of those lists / texts. I dont care if you never have the ability to own a gun.
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Old 08-06-2019, 07:23 AM   #14
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If they have found you to have a "hit list" or "rap* list". You are subsequently kicked out of school for a period of time because of those lists / texts. I dont care if you never have the ability to own a gun.
Would a person who at one time made said list also not get a car, gas, bow, knife, pointy stick, baseball bat, hatchet, piece of rope, piece of wire, length of pipe, rock,and does he have to wear cushy mittens for life? Just looking for the line you are drawing, is it actually about hurting others, or just guns?
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Old 08-06-2019, 07:51 AM   #15
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Would a person who at one time made said list also not get a car, gas, bow, knife, pointy stick, baseball bat, hatchet, piece of rope, piece of wire, length of pipe, rock,and does he have to wear cushy mittens for life? Just looking for the line you are drawing, is it actually about hurting others, or just guns?
Guns / bow would be good to take away for me. I'd say okay for a butter knife.

It's about the ability to hurt others.
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Old 08-06-2019, 08:50 AM   #16
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Guns / bow would be good to take away for me. I'd say okay for a butter knife.

It's about the ability to hurt others.
You cant take that away. Its in the brain.
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Old 08-06-2019, 08:57 AM   #17
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Guns / bow would be good to take away for me. I'd say okay for a butter knife.

It's about the ability to hurt others.
Than take the person out of society. Some people are just wired differently and they want to cause harm. The tool they use to accomplish this is irrelevant.
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Old 08-06-2019, 09:18 AM   #18
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Some people are just wired differently and they want to cause harm. The tool they use to accomplish this is irrelevant.
^^^^ This

At least with a crazy person and a gun, people have a chance to get away or take out the shooter. When crazy people use vehicles, airplanes, bombs, fertilizer, the victims have pretty much no chance. You are just run over or blown to bits. Given the choice, I'd rather take my chances against a gun.
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Old 08-06-2019, 09:44 AM   #19
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^^^^ This

At least with a crazy person and a gun, people have a chance to get away or take out the shooter. When crazy people use vehicles, airplanes, bombs, fertilizer, the victims have pretty much no chance. You are just run over or blown to bits. Given the choice, I'd rather take my chances against a gun.
That why you don't want democrats making laws ( as seen in this thread already ) they don't really have a clue.
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Old 08-06-2019, 09:57 AM   #20
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Than take the person out of society. Some people are just wired differently and they want to cause harm. The tool they use to accomplish this is irrelevant.
I dont mind this at all - People who dont have hit lists and rap* lists can have all the guns they want.

I thinks it's a fairly simple policy that anyone with those lists needs nothing to do with guns or knives or bows or samurai swords.
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Old 08-06-2019, 10:10 AM   #21
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I dont mind this at all - People who dont have hit lists and rap* lists can have all the guns they want.

I thinks it's a fairly simple policy that anyone with those lists needs nothing to do with guns or knives or bows or samurai swords.
How do you determine who shouldn't have guns, knives or bows? How do you enforce it? What is to prevent the from using a different tool (car, gas can & match, fork)?
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Old 08-06-2019, 10:32 AM   #22
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I dont mind this at all - People who dont have hit lists and rap* lists can have all the guns they want.

I thinks it's a fairly simple policy that anyone with those lists needs nothing to do with guns or knives or bows or samurai swords.
At a young age, I was "diagnosed" with ADD. Got put on meds. This was late 80's when all this crap medicating took off. I hated taking them. Now I was very productive while at school but all social skills went out the window. I was literally a zombie. My parents misread it and thought I was depressed. Had to go to counseling. "Qualified" counselor called it deep depression. Potential suicidal. Long talk with my folks, got off the meds, and have been easily distracted happy young man for 30 years.
With these potential "red flag" laws, the only thing seen about my life will be that 2 year stretch. With no context. They won't see the endless hours of volunteer work, the productive input to society, etc. I'll be judged because of a crap medication.
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Old 08-06-2019, 10:46 AM   #23
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A guy I went to HS with, went on to attend UVA then got his masters at UT. Smart guy, but socially awkward. Went to work in the oil field, and his awkwardness got a more excessive. I dont think he fit in well during his hitches and he became more isolated. Ended up setting his truck on fire in his bosses driveway, had a gas can in his hand when cops showed up, no one was hurt. Got charged with felony arson in 2016.

I have been following his case online. No expert here, but I want to say they have him listed as incompetent to stand trail. And he was just sentenced to a year at Rusk State Hospital, which is an awful place. Not sure what happens after that, but I am pretty positive he isnt coming out of Rusk less crazy than he went in. Think that is basically a life sentence served in 12 month intervals.
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Old 08-06-2019, 10:53 AM   #24
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At a young age, I was "diagnosed" with ADD. Got put on meds. This was late 80's when all this crap medicating took off. I hated taking them. Now I was very productive while at school but all social skills went out the window. I was literally a zombie. My parents misread it and thought I was depressed. Had to go to counseling. "Qualified" counselor called it deep depression. Potential suicidal. Long talk with my folks, got off the meds, and have been easily distracted happy young man for 30 years.
With these potential "red flag" laws, the only thing seen about my life will be that 2 year stretch. With no context. They won't see the endless hours of volunteer work, the productive input to society, etc. I'll be judged because of a crap medication.
Hit lists and rap* lists are all the context I need - I dont care if you are depressed or have ADD. I care if you wish and fantasize about harm to others, and are caught doing so.
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Old 08-06-2019, 11:18 AM   #25
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Hit lists and rap* lists are all the context I need - I dont care if you are depressed or have ADD. I care if you wish and fantasize about harm to others, and are caught doing so.
We are in agreement with your above statement. Once again, who gets to determine what your are thinking is real or faux?

This whole Ohio deal has the same traits as the Florida gunman. He was crazy, but protected by the Obama law not to label you as crazy.
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Old 08-06-2019, 11:31 AM   #26
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We are in agreement with your above statement. Once again, who gets to determine what your are thinking is real or faux?

This whole Ohio deal has the same traits as the Florida gunman. He was crazy, but protected by the Obama law not to label you as crazy.
He was reported by people that received heinous messages about how he was going gruesomely kill them or rap* them. They investigated and found the lists and other information. He was kicked out of school.

Next in this process should be never own any gun / knife.

These insane people are protected due to the litigation happy red tape creators that have everyone walking on egg shells.
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Old 08-06-2019, 11:36 AM   #27
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He was reported by people that received heinous messages about how he was going gruesomely kill them or rap* them. They investigated and found the lists and other information. He was kicked out of school.

Next in this process should be never own any gun / knife.

These insane people are protected due to the litigation happy red tape creators that have everyone walking on egg shells.
Here is the problem. There is already laws against murdering folks. He didn't follow that one. What makes you think he will follow the law that says he can't have a gun? There are laws that say people can't have drugs. Those work so well....lets add some more laws to the books. Criminals don't follow the laws. People that won't murder you do.
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Old 08-06-2019, 11:56 AM   #28
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I'm confused about what you are asking for.
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Old 08-06-2019, 01:12 PM   #29
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Hit lists and rap* lists are all the context I need - I dont care if you are depressed or have ADD. I care if you wish and fantasize about harm to others, and are caught doing so.
But where does it end. Starts out with your "obvious" lists. Guess what, 10 years and 10 shootings later, lets add to the list. Still not enough, lets add more.


For the record, I am tired of seeing these incidents just as much as the next guy. There is a bigger issue with this country than guns and mental health.

Last edited by SAC; 08-06-2019 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 08-06-2019, 01:32 PM   #30
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I'm confused about what you are asking for.
What is it you’re confused about? Did you read the article? We need to enforce laws we have. State and local law enforcement needs to communicate with feds in cases like this. We can’t dismiss credible threats like this. He’s been treating to kill and rape people for years. “Obsessed with killing”, as one acquaintance put it.
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Old 08-06-2019, 01:33 PM   #31
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yup
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Old 08-06-2019, 01:46 PM   #32
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But where does it end. Starts out with your "obvious" lists. Guess what, 10 years and 10 shootings later, lets add to the list. Still not enough, lets add more.


For the record, I am tired of seeing these incidents just as much as the next guy. There is a bigger issue with this country than guns and mental health.
Yep, this is why you can't just react off of emotions. It will not stop these shootings. And 50 years later folks will lose their 2A rights (if we still have 2A) if they disagree with a political post on FB. There is not stopping this once the cat is out of the bag. It will just give more power to the government who is terrible at running anything it touches.
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Old 08-06-2019, 01:51 PM   #33
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What is it you’re confused about? Did you read the article? We need to enforce laws we have. State and local law enforcement needs to communicate with feds in cases like this. We can’t dismiss credible threats like this. He’s been treating to kill and rape people for years. “Obsessed with killing”, as one acquaintance put it.
Assuming you meant to say "threatening," what would you have had state and local law enforcement communicate to the feds? What crime were these "credible threats"?
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Old 08-06-2019, 02:02 PM   #34
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Assuming you meant to say "threatening," what would you have had state and local law enforcement communicate to the feds? What crime were these "credible threats"?
Does terroriatic threats , TX penal code section 22.07 suffice for you?
Can be, AND SHOULDVE BEEN, charged as a felony. Will that do??
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Old 08-06-2019, 02:12 PM   #35
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But where does it end. Starts out with your "obvious" lists. Guess what, 10 years and 10 shootings later, lets add to the list. Still not enough, lets add more.


For the record, I am tired of seeing these incidents just as much as the next guy. There is a bigger issue with this country than guns and mental health.
I dont care where it ends. I care where it starts. This jack wagon having the same right as me to have a gun is a joke.
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Old 08-06-2019, 02:12 PM   #36
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Does terroriatic threats , TX penal code section 22.07 suffice for you?
Can be, AND SHOULDVE BEEN, charged as a felony. Will that do??
No, it won't do, since you can't charge a dude in Ohio with an offense under the Texas Penal Code.

While you're rereading the code, notice that these are misdemeanor offenses anyway.
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Old 08-06-2019, 02:22 PM   #37
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I’m was referencing the El Paso Guy. Though that would be pretty clear considering I referenced the Texas penal code.

Clearly you’re looking to pick a fight. I promise you, I’m not the guy.

And you’re wrong - https://texas.public.law/statutes/te..._section_22.07

Subsection a4, a5, and a6 can all be felony charges and in the case of El Paso, should’ve been treated and charged as such.
Move along.
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Old 08-06-2019, 02:32 PM   #38
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I’m was referencing the El Paso Guy. Though that would be pretty clear considering I referenced the Texas penal code.

Clearly you’re looking to pick a fight. I promise you, I’m not the guy.
Your post with the link daytondailynews dot com/news/local/new-details-dayton-shooter-obsessed-with-killing-bellbrook-classmates-say is about the El Paso guy, not the Dayton guy? Oh boy.

Quote:

And you’re wrong - https://texas.public.law/statutes/te..._section_22.07

Subsection a4, a5, and a6 can all be felony charges and in the case of El Paso, should’ve been treated and charged as such.
Move along.
Sure, we can talk about the El Paso guy here. Link me to something that says he threatened to commit any offense involving violence to any person or property with intent to
(4) cause impairment or interruption of public communications, public transportation, public water, gas, or power supply or other public service;
(5) place the public or a substantial group of the public in fear of serious bodily injury; or
(6) influence the conduct or activities of a branch or agency of the federal government, the state, or a political subdivision of the state.
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Old 08-06-2019, 02:37 PM   #39
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I dont care where it ends. I care where it starts. This jack wagon having the same right as me to have a gun is a joke.
Your right, but where it ends is, neither one of you having a gun.
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Old 08-06-2019, 02:40 PM   #40
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Your post with the link daytondailynews dot com/news/local/new-details-dayton-shooter-obsessed-with-killing-bellbrook-classmates-say is about the El Paso guy, not the Dayton guy? Oh boy.



Sure, we can talk about the El Paso guy here. Link me to something that says he threatened to commit any offense involving violence to any person or property with intent to
(4) cause impairment or interruption of public communications, public transportation, public water, gas, or power supply or other public service;
(5) place the public or a substantial group of the public in fear of serious bodily injury; or
(6) influence the conduct or activities of a branch or agency of the federal government, the state, or a political subdivision of the state.
Do you honestly think this doesn’t apply?? I could make the same argument for the parkland kid.

I simply had the two shootings/details mixed. Nonetheless, that doesn’t change my point that if we enforced current laws and local law communicated/followed up that way in which they should’ve, it would be a different conversation.

Last edited by JLivi1224; 08-06-2019 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 08-06-2019, 02:45 PM   #41
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Do you honestly think this doesn’t apply??
If you want us to believe El Paso Man should have been locked up for (a5) long before he committed his crime, all you have to do is provide us evidence that he threatened to commit an (a5) offense before the crime.
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Old 08-06-2019, 03:02 PM   #42
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If you want us to believe El Paso Man should have been locked up for (a5) long before he committed his crime, all you have to do is provide us evidence that he threatened to commit an (a5) offense before the crime.
Or I could simply direct you to the OH penal code. Still makes you wrong, regardless of me having the details crossed up for a moment. At the end of the day, we are arguing semantics, really. I am simply saying we need to enforce existing laws, before our govt proposing and supporting new laws!
would it have saved lives - MAYBE!! and as long as there is the possibility of lives being saved, then we need to do so.
We all recognize that criminals dont however, follow laws.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2909.23


2909.23 Making terroristic threat.
(A) No person shall threaten to commit or threaten to cause to be committed a specified offense when both of the following apply:

(1) The person makes the threat with purpose to do any of the following:

(a) Intimidate or coerce a civilian population;

(b) Influence the policy of any government by intimidation or coercion;

(c) Affect the conduct of any government by the threat or by the specified offense.

(2) As a result of the threat, the person causes a reasonable expectation or fear of the imminent commission of the specified offense.

(B) It is not a defense to a charge of a violation of this section that the defendant did not have the intent or capability to commit the threatened specified offense or that the threat was not made to a person who was a subject of the threatened specified offense.

(C) Whoever violates this section is guilty of making a terroristic threat, a felony of the third degree. Section 2909.25 of the Revised Code applies regarding an offender who is convicted of or pleads guilty to a violation of this section.

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Old 08-06-2019, 03:04 PM   #43
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How do you determine who shouldn't have guns, knives or bows? How do you enforce it? What is to prevent the from using a different tool (car, gas can & match, fork)?
Jer James you didn't answer this. I assume its because its a really hard question but please try and answer. Not trying to put you on the spot, just curious what the answer to this is.
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Old 08-06-2019, 03:09 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by JLivi1224 View Post
(A) No person shall threaten to commit or threaten to cause to be committed a specified offense when both of the following apply:

(1) The person makes the threat with purpose to do any of the following:

(a) Intimidate or coerce a civilian population;

(b) Influence the policy of any government by intimidation or coercion;

(c) Affect the conduct of any government by the threat or by the specified offense.
Goodness. You are all over the place.

What civilian population did Ohio Man threaten to intimidate or coerce?
What government policy did Ohio Man threaten to intimidate or coerce?
What government conduct did Ohio Man threaten to intimidate or coerce?
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Old 08-06-2019, 03:25 PM   #45
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Goodness. You are all over the place.

What civilian population did Ohio Man threaten to intimidate or coerce?
What government policy did Ohio Man threaten to intimidate or coerce?
What government conduct did Ohio Man threaten to intimidate or coerce?
Read the code first. I even highlighted it for you above, directly from the code.

Hard to make the argument, imo, that this does not apply.

Been real fun bud.

Last edited by JLivi1224; 08-06-2019 at 03:30 PM.
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Old 08-06-2019, 03:27 PM   #46
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I dont care where it ends. I care where it starts. This jack wagon having the same right as me to have a gun is a joke.
This is the problem with making laws based on emotions. Lawmakers should be forethinkers. Not knee jerkers.
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Old 08-06-2019, 03:30 PM   #47
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Read the code first. I even highlighted it for you above, directly from the code.
Yes, and you have to pick one of those three threats. So pick one.
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Old 08-06-2019, 03:34 PM   #48
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Yes, and you have to pick one of those three threats. So pick one.
Are you trolling now? Carry on bud.

Trump 2020- can we count on your vote ?
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Old 08-06-2019, 03:40 PM   #49
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Are you trolling now? Carry on bud.
Trust me, I can be a troll when I want to. No, I'm not trolling you.

I think you do not understand the words you are copy/pasting.

You are saying local LEO failed in Ohio. I have asked you how. You have shown us a law in Ohio making terroristic threats illegal. I have asked you for evidence that Ohio Man made terroristic threats.

This is the part where you share that with the class.
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Old 08-06-2019, 03:54 PM   #50
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Trust me, I can be a troll when I want to. No, I'm not trolling you.

I think you do not understand the words you are copy/pasting.

You are saying local LEO failed in Ohio. I have asked you how. You have shown us a law in Ohio making terroristic threats illegal. I have asked you for evidence that Ohio Man made terroristic threats.

This is the part where you share that with the class.
Well, then now that we are communicating better ...

Here’s a source you’ll prob like
https://www.thedailybeast.com/classm...-would-do-this

https://www.rawstory.com/2019/08/ohi...former-studen/

https://nypost.com/2019/08/04/dayton...all-report/Hey

Local Dayton newspaper if you prefer
https://www.daytondailynews.com/news...mpression=true

Same behavior was exhibited in work setting as well, as he threatened to kill customers if they didn’t tip him well.
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