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Old 06-10-2018, 11:41 AM   #1
jdunn6092
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Default Arrow spine help???

Howdy,

I have a Mathews triax 70 lbs. with a 28Ē ATA and 6Ē brace height. My draw length is 29.4Ē on the draw board and I cut my arrows to 28.5Ē. Iím running a 100 gr ethics archery insert and 100 gr broadhead with aae max stealth 3 fletch vanes and a nocturnal nock. The arrows Iím thinking of using is a 250 spine black eagle carnivores but Iím wondering if I can get away with the 300 spine with this setup. If I use the 250 spine what is the optimum weight forward to get the correct spine?

Thanks for the help!!!


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Old 06-24-2018, 02:59 PM   #2
Mudslinger
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This is what I am shooting that is close to your specs.

Obsession Def Con 6 @70#'s, 29" draw.
Black Eagle Carnivore .250's cut to 27 3/4" carbon to carbon with a regular insert but 150 grains of rear insert weights and a 125 grain head for a total weight of 595 grains and an FOC of over 19%. Shoot bullet holes thru paper and BH's (Ramcat 125 grain) fly like darts!
My opinion is to go with the 250 spine. I have shot as little as a 350 spine with this type of setup, but it was very, very critical on form and tune, the 250's no problem.
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Old 06-30-2018, 10:56 AM   #3
Rat
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First chart is of the arrow as specified; and, as you thought, it is a little stiff.

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Here is the same arrow with the dynamic and static spine matched. To answer you question and to get optimum spine (on paper anyway) you will need a 190 grain broadhead (or 65 gr added up front somehow).

Name:  JDunnArowV2..jpg
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And just for grins, here is the same arrow, but using length to get the spine right instead of extra weight up front. Two inches should do the trick.

Name:  JDunnArrowV3.0.jpg
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Old 06-30-2018, 02:38 PM   #4
ken
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat View Post
First chart is of the arrow as specified; and, as you thought, it is a little stiff.

Attachment 913696

Here is the same arrow with the dynamic and static spine matched. To answer you question and to get optimum spine (on paper anyway) you will need a 190 grain broadhead (or 65 gr added up front somehow).

Attachment 913697

And just for grins, here is the same arrow, but using length to get the spine right instead of extra weight up front. Two inches should do the trick.

Attachment 913698
Is this a free program you are using or something that is purchased? I want to experiment with some heavier arrows using some arrows I already own and the variables are too much for the basic draw weight/arrow length charts.
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Old 06-30-2018, 02:43 PM   #5
muddyfuzzy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ken View Post
Is this a free program you are using or something that is purchased? I want to experiment with some heavier arrows using some arrows I already own and the variables are too much for the basic draw weight/arrow length charts.


They require purchase but are worth it imo. There are several different programs to use but all accomplish the same ends. They require a little practice to trim properly but once you have that portion down they are pretty reliable. Just remember as with any program; garbage in = garbage out. Be truthful with the software and it will normally give you a workable solution.


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Old 06-30-2018, 03:27 PM   #6
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Quote:
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Is this a free program you are using or something that is purchased? I want to experiment with some heavier arrows using some arrows I already own and the variables are too much for the basic draw weight/arrow length charts.
This is OnTarget2 by Pinwheel, it works pretty good, I just started using it again in the last few weeks.

I have been using TAP Pro for years, but he hasn't updated his 2018 database yet so I an trying others.

I used Archer's Advantage and I did not like the results very well.

None of these are free, but they do have free trials, some anyway.
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Old 07-01-2018, 07:12 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat View Post
This is OnTarget2 by Pinwheel, it works pretty good, I just started using it again in the last few weeks.

I have been using TAP Pro for years, but he hasn't updated his 2018 database yet so I an trying others.

I used Archer's Advantage and I did not like the results very well.

None of these are free, but they do have free trials, some anyway.
Thanks, I'll look into it.
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Old 07-01-2018, 11:12 AM   #8
dk_ace
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I want the shortest arrow I can safely get away with. I would definitely drop a spine size before shooting an arrow 2” too long.

Even with 200 grains up front, I think you’ll be fine and probably better with the 300 spine if you don’t want to be too stiff. I honestly wouldn’t shoot that rig with 200 in front though. I think you’d see better performance with 125-150 up front than with the 200 you’re planning to use. I’d definitely run a 300 spine if you shot that setup.

D
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Old 07-02-2018, 09:10 AM   #9
enewman
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Originally Posted by dk_ace View Post
I want the shortest arrow I can safely get away with. I would definitely drop a spine size before shooting an arrow 2Ē too long.

Even with 200 grains up front, I think youíll be fine and probably better with the 300 spine if you donít want to be too stiff. I honestly wouldnít shoot that rig with 200 in front though. I think youíd see better performance with 125-150 up front than with the 200 youíre planning to use. Iíd definitely run a 300 spine if you shot that setup.

D
Why do you think he would have better performance with 125/150 over 200 on the front.
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Old 07-02-2018, 11:06 AM   #10
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Why do you think he would have better performance with 125/150 over 200 on the front.
Because heís using it for hunting and his speed is going to be what I consider too slow with 200 grains up front. I think heíll be happier with 125-150 out of that setup. Heíll have sufficient FOC, reasonable speed (270-285), and a good overall arrow weight.

With the 200, heíll have a very high FOC (which isnít always a good thing despite what people on the internet say), a very heavy arrow (which I generally prefer), but his speed will be much slower which will make his pin gaps bigger and limit how far he can shoot.

I think the 125-150 approach is better for an overall balanced setup. However, if youíre only shooting 40 yards or less, nothing I talked about matters and either of these setups is perfectly fine. If you want to stretch out and be able to shoot well at longer distances, then Iíd shoot the 125-150 setup.

D
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Old 07-02-2018, 12:32 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by dk_ace View Post
Because he’s using it for hunting and his speed is going to be what I consider too slow with 200 grains up front. I think he’ll be happier with 125-150 out of that setup. He’ll have sufficient FOC, reasonable speed (270-285), and a good overall arrow weight.

With the 200, he’ll have a very high FOC (which isn’t always a good thing despite what people on the internet say), a very heavy arrow (which I generally prefer), but his speed will be much slower which will make his pin gaps bigger and limit how far he can shoot.

I think the 125-150 approach is better for an overall balanced setup. However, if you’re only shooting 40 yards or less, nothing I talked about matters and either of these setups is perfectly fine. If you want to stretch out and be able to shoot well at longer distances, then I’d shoot the 125-150 setup.

D
Ok nice opinion.

Here’s mine. I can and have killed a few animals nothing big. Mainly rams at or close to 100 yards with arrows no faster then 250 fps.

Increasing foc. It improves flight. Not as important on arrows longer then 28 inch but it is important at around 26 inches.

Foc improves impact flex. Depending what your hunting this may or may not matter. But it is a plus

There is zero cons to foc. But a person must understand it and know how to tune it. Or it can be a problem. Most people that claim it’s a problem lack the understanding. Not there fault lack of teaching by others.

Again what you consider to slow is fast for short draw people and low draw weight. Even with light arrows some cannot reach 270fps which your posting and teaching is to slow. So what do they due.

Now you did cover your self with the 40 yard mark. So I guess with that your good

By the way my last year arrow was around 500 gr with 25% foc.
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Old 07-02-2018, 01:01 PM   #12
dk_ace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enewman View Post
Ok nice opinion.

Hereís mine. I can and have killed a few animals nothing big. Mainly rams at or close to 100 yards with arrows no faster then 250 fps.

Increasing foc. It improves flight. Not as important on arrows longer then 28 inch but it is important at around 26 inches.

Foc improves impact flex. Depending what your hunting this may or may not matter. But it is a plus

There is zero cons to foc. But a person must understand it and know how to tune it. Or it can be a problem. Most people that claim itís a problem lack the understanding. Not there fault lack of teaching by others.

Again what you consider to slow is fast for short draw people and low draw weight. Even with light arrows some cannot reach 270fps which your posting and teaching is to slow. So what do they due.

Now you did cover your self with the 40 yard mark. So I guess with that your good

By the way my last year arrow was around 500 gr with 25% foc.
I disagree that there are no cons to more FOC especially as you approach the numbers I see a lot of guys trying to get to today (20%+), but I donít want to turn the OPs thread into a discussion of that since it isnít what his thread is for.

Clearly what youíre doing works for you, so I wouldnít change a thing either.

I tend to respond to people shooting setups I know as they are close to ones that Iíve spent a lot of time with. I almost never offer advice to short draw length archers as Iím not one and I have no idea what does or doesnít work well. Their setups are going to be very different from guys around 30Ē and 70lbs, which is the space I know well. If youíre a short draw archer and/or one that canít pull a lot of weight, lots of things change and you have to approach your arrow setup differently. Iíll leave that advice-giving to people whoíve extensively tested things in that range and know what theyíre talking about.

If youíre an average to long draw archer and can comfortably shoot 70 lbs, Iíll maintain that I think the best balance of performance is to be found at speeds just north of 270 throwing the heaviest arrow you can get to that speed. I prefer 10-15% FOC. I know those setups well, because that is what is I shoot. Iíve tried slower and faster, higher and lower FOC, etc and found that a balanced approach works best for me.

The OP here is running the kind of setup I know, and thus I gave him my opinion based on my experience with setups like his.

D
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Old 07-02-2018, 09:29 AM   #13
Rat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dk_ace View Post
I want the shortest arrow I can safely get away with. I would definitely drop a spine size before shooting an arrow 2Ē too long.

Even with 200 grains up front, I think youíll be fine and probably better with the 300 spine if you donít want to be too stiff. I honestly wouldnít shoot that rig with 200 in front though. I think youíd see better performance with 125-150 up front than with the 200 youíre planning to use. Iíd definitely run a 300 spine if you shot that setup.

D
I don't see how an arrow can be too long, it tunes where it tunes.

It would be the same as saying you don't want to add 4 grains of powder when working up a load for a rifle; if it shoots better with 4 more grains then it isn't too much.

Same with an arrow, if it shoots and tunes better with two inches then it isn't too long.

It isn't a perfect analogy (because you can have too much powder and be unsafe) but you get the gist.
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Old 07-02-2018, 11:08 AM   #14
dk_ace
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Originally Posted by Rat View Post
I don't see how an arrow can be too long, it tunes where it tunes.

It would be the same as saying you don't want to add 4 grains of powder when working up a load for a rifle; if it shoots better with 4 more grains then it isn't too much.

Same with an arrow, if it shoots and tunes better with two inches then it isn't too long.

It isn't a perfect analogy (because you can have too much powder and be unsafe) but you get the gist.
If the wind never blows, then sure you can shoot as long of an arrow as you want as long as it tunes. Assuming we hunt somewhere where the wind might blow, then Iíll take the appropriately spined, shorter arrow every time. I would never consider shooting a stiffer, longer arrow when a weaker one that could be cut shorter and tune as well was available.

D
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Old 07-03-2018, 04:28 PM   #15
Mudslinger
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I have more or less tuned out of the "what works best, High FOC. Middle FoC or light fast arrows compared to heavier maybe High FOC arrows, but this is what has worked for me and my findings after many trials and errors.

The heavier arrows, 500+ grains (mine right now are 595 grains) and a high FOC, 19%+ showed me that at any distance they are more accurate, more forgiving due to form or whatever else and way quieter than the 420 grain arrows I was shooting. Surprisingly my pin gaps did not widen out as much as you would think going from 420 grains to 595 grains, but even if they did, the forgiveness in lack of form execution and the accuracy gain outweighed the pins gap spread!
I have found my sweet spot in arrows for NA and have found my sweet spot for my arrows to take to Africa for my Cape hunt hopefully next year. No need for me to tinker much anymore as I am getting to old and lazy!
BUT it is a blast to read these threads as most of the contributors on here know what they are talking about period! Muddy, Rat, Enewman and others!
Thanks for all you guys do to help people figure out their best set ups!
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Old 07-03-2018, 05:50 PM   #16
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Default Arrow spine help???

Great write up Doug, you have been at this awhile and your FIELD data is very respected. I feel that you are spot on appreciate your insight as always. Thanks for keeping it real and sharing! I shot those 797ís and they are tough bro!


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Last edited by muddyfuzzy; 07-03-2018 at 05:55 PM.
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