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Old 07-11-2018, 10:43 AM   #1
RJH1
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Default Asa allowing stringwalking

Asa is starting bare bow class next year for all of you string walkers. 30 yard max. Idk if it is known distance and I figure compounders will be shooting too. If you want the class to last, go shoot it
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:21 AM   #2
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I never understood why things like this are not legal in 3D??? It not like they are adding a sight bar on their bow. To me, it's just a smarter indian thing! Same with the bow restrictions at the Texas State Longbow Championship. I understand it is their shoot, so they can have whatever rules they want. I won't miss the longbow shoot because it is such a great venue and format, so I use a different bow than normal and play by their rules!

IBO has a trad class that allows string walking/crawl, but IBO is nearly dead in Texas.

ASA is not as appealing to most trad folks because they only have one trad class, and last time I shot it, it was a 25yd max where the womens compound class shot the same stake. IMHO, you will never make both of those groups happy if they are both shooting from the same stake, and the ASA is always going to try to please the compounders first, as that is their bread and butter.

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Old 07-11-2018, 12:00 PM   #3
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Right on Bisch ! Exactly.

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Old 07-11-2018, 12:06 PM   #4
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Women compound an trad don't shoot from the same stake in asa
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:22 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJH1 View Post
Women compound an trad don't shoot from the same stake in asa
They used to! So, does trad shooters have their own stake now?

EDIT: I just looked it up, and trad does not shoot with the women anymore. We get to shoot with the Elementary School Open Boys!!! That is an improvement. When I shot ASA, all the shots were between 20-25yds on almost every course I shot. As such, it was kind of boring. I hope they mix up the shots a little more these days to make a course more interesting.

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Old 07-11-2018, 01:27 PM   #6
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Calling Rick Barbee!

Go get 'em, buddy!
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:46 PM   #7
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Calling Rick Barbee!

Go get 'em, buddy!
If they are going to allow compound as barebow in the class, it will wind up being the same huge debacle as it is in other venues who do.
If that's the case, I'll pass.

If however, it will be stickbows only, then I might have to give it a serious looksee.

I don't mind gap shooting.

I'm kind of an outsider/in a class of my own anyway.
I shoot using non sighted target shooting methods (several),
but I do it all with my heavy draw hunting rigs.
I've never shot any bow other than my go to hunting rig in any competition, and don't plan on changing any time soon.
You won't/don't find many who reside in that catagory.

Rick
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:57 PM   #8
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Bisch, asa is still a lot of 20ish yard shots, and I heard people complain about them being too long...

Rick, I would be willing to bet that compounds will be included in the class. To set up a new class dedicated to equipment that has the least turnout currently seems highly unlikely,but I could be wrong

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Old 07-11-2018, 02:27 PM   #9
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Bisch, asa is still a lot of 20ish yard shots, and I heard people complain about them being too long...
I was not complaining at all! I just said it was boring having 30 of the same shots. And yes, there are a lot of guys who shoot trad who nearly never shoot much over 20yds, and as such, a course with all 20 yd shots would seem long to them.

Let's face it, ASA is a compound oriented organization. I don't have anything against that either, as the wheel guys and gals have to have a place to go have fun too. Even though they have a trad class, they are not geared toward the traditional shooter. That's why TBoT thrives the way it does; because it is focused on pleasing the trad shooters! There are way fewer trad shooters than wheel bow shooters out here, so we will never have as good of a turnout (esp at smaller shoots) as the wheel bow shoots do.

Just my 2 cents worth!

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Old 07-11-2018, 02:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJH1 View Post
Rick, I would be willing to bet that compounds will be included in the class. To set up a new class dedicated to equipment that has the least turnout currently seems highly unlikely,but I could be wrong
Oh, I know. Not worried about it.

Like I said, I'm kind of in my own category, and I like it that way. The only competition I have to worry about is myself, and my quarry.

No fuss, no muss.

Rick
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Old 07-11-2018, 02:44 PM   #11
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I've never understood having a different bow to compete vs hunt. Unless they are the exact same set up it would work that way for me I guess. Then why have 2?

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Old 07-11-2018, 03:08 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by DRT View Post
I've never understood having a different bow to compete vs hunt. Unless they are the exact same set up it would work that way for me I guess. Then why have 2?

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Probably like having a race car and a daily driver, while interchangeable, one is better suited to a particular task than the other
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Old 07-11-2018, 03:28 PM   #13
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Quote:
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I've never understood having a different bow to compete vs hunt. Unless they are the exact same set up it would work that way for me I guess. Then why have 2?

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I understand why some do.

My thing is - competition for me has always been about being a better shot for hunting, so I use the bow I hunt with.

Rick
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Old 07-11-2018, 03:34 PM   #14
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Bisch, I didn't think you were complaining, just happened to hear some people
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Old 07-11-2018, 03:38 PM   #15
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Saw a little more and it does look to be a non wheelie class after all
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Old 07-11-2018, 05:09 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by RJH1 View Post
Saw a little more and it does look to be a non wheelie class after all


Well, if that’s the case, it will give all the guys shooting a fixed crawl and regular string walkers a place to go play!!!!

Bisch


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Old 07-11-2018, 06:07 PM   #17
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I would love to see a traditional "Dangerous Game Hunter" class.

Rick
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Old 07-11-2018, 06:09 PM   #18
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I would love to see a traditional "Dangerous Game Hunter" class.

Rick
Yessir!
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Old 07-11-2018, 06:35 PM   #19
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I wish ASA would separate the trad classes, you almost have to shoot a bow with a stabilizer and Aluminium riser to be competitive.They should put the compound classes together and how many participants they get so they can understand. IBO separates the classes, TBOT separates the classes. The string walk class is ok especially for them by knowing how far it is so they can walk it. I probably would not shoot it unless it was unknown distance. I also think they should stretch out the shots out to 30.
ASA is a good organization I just wish they would concentrate on the trade shooter a little more.
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:19 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickBarbee View Post
I understand why some do.

My thing is - competition for me has always been about being a better shot for hunting, so I use the bow I hunt with.

Rick
Exactly.

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Old 07-12-2018, 01:10 PM   #21
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Pardon my ignorance... What exactly defines barebow?

I speculate that it means no stabilizers, no rests, off the shelf only, no sights, finger release only, etc...as it implies...just stick and string? Im curious how thatd work with compound too.

How did it exclude string walking before?
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Old 07-12-2018, 01:29 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Briar Friar View Post
Pardon my ignorance... What exactly defines barebow?

I speculate that it means no stabilizers, no rests, off the shelf only, no sights, finger release only, etc...as it implies...just stick and string? Im curious how thatd work with compound too.

How did it exclude string walking before?
It depends - governing organizations (FITA, IFAA, NFAA) have slightly different rules. What they have in common in their barebow definition is no sights, no releases. Many do allow elevated rests, cushioned plungers, counterweights/stabilizers, etc.

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Old 07-13-2018, 11:55 AM   #23
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It depends - governing organizations (FITA, IFAA, NFAA) have slightly different rules. What they have in common in their barebow definition is no sights, no releases. Many do allow elevated rests, cushioned plungers, counterweights/stabilizers, etc.
Fair enough. Thanks Jerp.
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Old 07-13-2018, 01:49 PM   #24
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Here's how I see it.

There are those who shoot instinctive, and those who can't get the hang of it.

There are those who gap shoot, and those who can't get the hang of it.

There are those who face walk, and those who can't get the hang of it.

There are those who string walk, and those who can't get the hang of it.

There are those who excel in whichever method they choose, and there are those who do not.

In ALL of the above, the archer is using ONLY the bow, string & arrow to make the shot, with NO added accessories, and each has chosen the method they are the most comfortable, and confident with.

There should be NO distinction, determination, consideration in which to split them into different classes, because when there is no equipment difference it all falls onto the shooters abilities to make the shot. No more. No less.

Rick
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Old 07-13-2018, 03:13 PM   #25
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I agree it's up to the shooter to make the shot.
I don't agree that all of the sightless aiming methods are on equal standing competition wise.
However I'm not worried about it because when I shoot it's about me and how I perform to my expectations. Not the other shooters.
I can see someone who wanted to be competitive having an issue with it.


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Old 07-13-2018, 03:42 PM   #26
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I don't agree that all of the sightless aiming methods are on equal standing competition wise.
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The argument could easily be made, that one persons method of instinctive shooting isn't on equal standing competition wise as that of another instinctive shooter. Lots of definitions of instinctive floating around out there.

I can remember a time when folks threw a fit over someone shooting 3 under, and have personally seen shooters get chastised & disqualified from shoots for it. For the most part those days are long gone, Thank Goodness.

Point is - where equipment is equal - the accomplished shooters are going to rise to the top no matter what the rules of sighting methods are.

Just as an aside - I also remember folks complaining about stick on elevated rests, even though the one who was the brunt of most of their complaints could probably throw the arrow by hand, and still beat a lot of them. Sure, there definitely needs to be a line drawn on equipment, but I personally believe the socker mom mentality has taken that line to beyond the extreme.

That said - I follow, and shoot within the rules set forth by whatever venue I am shooting in. If there's enough about certain rules, that I don't like, then I just don't shoot, or I shoot as a non competitor. It's pretty simple, and keeps me happy.

Rick
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Old 07-14-2018, 01:35 PM   #27
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I'm right handed and shoot split finger instinctive.

I had a scout challenge me at summer camp. He is a very good shot for no more than he shoots.

First round he beat me 53 to 47 out of a possible 60 points. I hadn't shot the bow before but it was just 26lbs draw at 28 so after the first couple shots I was dialed in. Later in the afternoon he wanted to go left handed and after a couple practice rounds was doing decent. Then the challenge came for that. Having never shot left handed I asked for one 6 arrow end to prepare. I knew the best chance I had to be coordinated enough to not look stupid and accurate enough to be competitive I would need to shoot three under, string walk and figure out what if any gap in those 6 arrows. I did so and he knew then it was over. In the 6 arrows of the challenge I had two 10s, five 9s and one 8.

Granted it was only 10 yards. But I had never shot left handed before. I had not shot three under or string walked before. I had watched a couple of videos and Rick can tell you we've had some discussions about it before.

It's not the same as instinctive shooting. It's easier to get adequate at it at short ranges for most shooters. That's why the guy who does "the push" is so popular.

People look for the easier way. That's why they buy the sight with a level and range finder built in. Always looking for the edge.

And I really don't think that's bad but I do think it puts the average instinctive shooter at a disadvantage competition wise.

Let the lashes with a wet noodle begin.


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Old 07-14-2018, 01:52 PM   #28
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I'm right handed and shoot split finger instinctive.

I had a scout challenge me at summer camp. He is a very good shot for no more than he shoots.

First round he beat me 53 to 47 out of a possible 60 points. I hadn't shot the bow before but it was just 26lbs draw at 28 so after the first couple shots I was dialed in. Later in the afternoon he wanted to go left handed and after a couple practice rounds was doing decent. Then the challenge came for that. Having never shot left handed I asked for one 6 arrow end to prepare. I knew the best chance I had to be coordinated enough to not look stupid and accurate enough to be competitive I would need to shoot three under, string walk and figure out what if any gap in those 6 arrows. I did so and he knew then it was over. In the 6 arrows of the challenge I had two 10s, five 9s and one 8.

Granted it was only 10 yards. But I had never shot left handed before. I had not shot three under or string walked before. I had watched a couple of videos and Rick can tell you we've had some discussions about it before.

It's not the same as instinctive shooting. It's easier to get adequate at it at short ranges for most shooters. That's why the guy who does "the push" is so popular.

People look for the easier way. That's why they buy the sight with a level and range finder built in. Always looking for the edge.

And I really don't think that's bad but I do think it puts the average instinctive shooter at a disadvantage competition wise.

Let the lashes with a wet noodle begin.


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Granted it was only 10 yards.

That says a mouth full.

Any method takes a lot of work to get it where it is working.

String walking not only involves good form to pull it off, because you are adversely influencing your tune when you do it, thus it also requires you to be spot on with your tune for it to be consistent & reliable.

It's not something you can just got out & do willy nilly, and count on. Well maybe at 10 yards.

Rick
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Old 07-14-2018, 01:59 PM   #29
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Stringwalking - if you are good at guessing distances - can give a distinct advantage IMO. Whether it is an unfair advantage is a matter of opinion. I think disallowing it goes back to the early days of 3D where you had two types of competitors. Many were hunters looking for competition as a realistic hunting experience but others came over from field archery where stringwalking is very common. There was conflict between two groups and the instinctive/gap guys won the argument. I’ve seen string walkers at our field shoots - remarkably accurate from known distances.

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Old 07-16-2018, 07:53 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickBarbee View Post
Here's how I see it.

There are those who shoot instinctive, and those who can't get the hang of it.

There are those who gap shoot, and those who can't get the hang of it.

There are those who face walk, and those who can't get the hang of it.

There are those who string walk, and those who can't get the hang of it.

There are those who excel in whichever method they choose, and there are those who do not.

In ALL of the above, the archer is using ONLY the bow, string & arrow to make the shot, with NO added accessories, and each has chosen the method they are the most comfortable, and confident with.

There should be NO distinction, determination, consideration in which to split them into different classes, because when there is no equipment difference it all falls onto the shooters abilities to make the shot. No more. No less.

Rick


This is spot on! I once more have to agree with Rick. We all gap at some point in some way. The arrow goes up and gravity takes it down! It's when you use peep sights and releases that are the real differences. Making the aiming smaller on small. If you don't know known distances by what ever method it's still a guessing game. The better you are at guessing the better archer. At the end
of the day all groups try to get there numbers up at the shoots how ever they can. Arvin
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Old 07-16-2018, 10:39 AM   #31
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since I don't go to asa shoots. ill just keep it to myself
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Old 07-16-2018, 11:08 AM   #32
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Dont want anyone thinking this will be replacing the trad class, they are adding barebow, but you can still shoot trad if you like. Don't know if that was clear
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Old 07-17-2018, 06:26 AM   #33
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I shoot a 3 piece take down recurve near 70# in draw weight, off the shelf, no stabilizer, no sights.

No gadgets of any kind. Heck, I don't even have any vibration dampeners on it.

The only things you could call accessories on it are, it has a 7 arrow bow quiver attached, and a KwickLoc arrow holder for hunting. It's my hunting bow plain & simple.

I shoot 640gr arrows having 3X4" fletching. Same arrows I hunt with, but with target points instead of broadheads.

It's definitely no barebow target rig by any stretch of the imagination. It's no different than say for example - a Blackwidow PMA, or a Martin Hatfield, except it isn't an all wood riser.

The way it is now, you could be shooting an Arvin Weaver Selfbow with a sinew string, bamboo self nock arrows, tied on fletching, and stone heads, but if you shoot it using the SWing method you would have to shoot in the barebow class. "Makes no sense."

Why can't I just pick the class that has the same configurations, and limits on equipment as I use, and shoot in it using my shooting style? I guess I should say "shooting styles", because I have several, and they vary from one shot to another depending on the shot at hand.

Anyway, back to my ^^above^^ question: Why can't I?

Rick
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Old 07-17-2018, 07:23 AM   #34
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Rick, you can't because that is the rules.

As far as equipment, no one forces people to use a selfbow or anything else that is at a perceived disadvantage. I see this line of thought all the time, "why can't I use my X in Y class? it is not fair?" You cant cause it is the rules.

!!! You can use any bow and or aiming method in any class that allows it, if you pick a bow/aiming method that puts you at a disadvantage, that is on you!!!!

A lot of people seem to want organizations to have a class set up for exactly what they want, if that happened there would be about 10,000 classes. Heck ASA has 41 classes now, 42 when barebow is added, if you can't find a class that suits you, maybe you are being too hard to please. In the pistol sport I shoot there are 8 classes and a couple of years ago there were only 6, but guess what, people want to gripe and moan about "why can't I do this or that"? Truth is they usually can but that puts them in a tougher class and they don't want that either, so we end up with a thread like this one on a different forum
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Old 07-17-2018, 07:26 AM   #35
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Jerome, I understand the rules as they are written, and I participate within the confines of them. Always.

I say KUDOS to the ASA for putting forth the effort. It's just a shame they based that effort on an old, non sense, "arbitrary" decision.

I'll rephrase the question.

Why not set the classes according to style of equipment, instead of by some "arbitrary" rules on aiming styles/methods, that make no sense?

I actually know the "real answer" to that. I was around to see it all unfold (it was ugly). But, I wouldn't say it here, nor anywhere else in public, because it would start a !@#$ storm the likes of which we seldom see. 8^)

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Old 07-17-2018, 07:37 AM   #36
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Didn't they just do that with Barebow? So see there is a class doing exactly what you are asking for, but you don't seem happy :-)


The issue that always arises is that people want classes set around THEIR equipment, and there are just too many variations for that to be feasible

I am not trying to be a smart alec, I know tone is hard to tell on the interweb
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Old 07-17-2018, 07:40 AM   #37
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No, no they did not.

Determining classes according to non accessorized aiming methods makes about as much sense as determining classes according to shooters height, or whether they are left, or right handed.

LOL wait - classes determined by height, or left or right hand (especially in 3D competition), actually makes more sense if you think about it, and how/who set the 3D courses.

Rick
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Old 07-17-2018, 07:45 AM   #38
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You have never addressed why you seem so opposed to shooting in barebow class when it seemingly gives you exactly what you are looking for. So, why you no like it, when it does what you want?
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Old 07-17-2018, 07:56 AM   #39
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Not sure arbitrary is the word I would use.

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Old 07-17-2018, 07:56 AM   #40
RickBarbee
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If you think the barebow class will be even "remotely similar" in equipment "by most" to the equipment I use to hunt with, then you really need to look it all over again real good.

I compete exclusively with the same rig I happen to be hunting with, and with exception to it being a metal riser, it is exactly like most any other recurve you would see at just about any "traditional only" shoot there is.

Well, it's generally heavier draw weight than most also, but I won't count that.

I'm not debating the rule. I'm debating, and "asking for" the "reasoning" for the rule.

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Old 07-17-2018, 07:59 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRT View Post
Not sure arbitrary is the word I would use.

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Maybe you wouldn't, but I used the word intentionally.

ar·bi·trar·y
ˈärbəˌtrerē/
adjective
adjective: arbitrary

based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.

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Old 07-17-2018, 08:11 AM   #42
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I don't have a big stake in archery competition.

In rifle and pistol shooters always tweaked stocks, sight hoods, mounts, etc ro get any perceived advantage. Then wanted to be placed in hunter class.
The rules are what they are because someone is trying to protect what they perceive is the integrity of the spirit of the sport regardless of what sport it is.
I think it's curious that people think the way they do on much of this. Then again people seem to not like being excluded even though they wouldn't participate even if things were changed.


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Old 07-17-2018, 08:14 AM   #43
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What "Way to many" folks seem to have forgotten is - 3D competition was intended to make us better shots for hunting.

I took/take that intent to heart, and compete with exactly what I hunt with, with exception to the type points/heads I use. It makes ZERO sense for me to try to improve my hunting accuracy with a bow I'm not going to be hunting with.

Folks gasp at having to compete against metal risers, thinking they are different. They are not at all different functionality wise than all wood.

Folks swallow their tongues over competing against ILF rigs, thinking they are different. They are not at all different functionality wise than all wood.

I was making the same adjustments with my all wood risers/bows (oh be it a bit more difficult) as I do now with my metal riser ILF, and ILF is just a limb attachment system.

Thinking I am upset, and/or unhappy is a mistake. Thinking I am being combative is a mistake. I am none of those.

I enjoy serious discussion, with serious, pertinent, descriptive, and honest input.
I'm simply asking questions, and looking for descriptive answers.
The descriptive answers haven't happened yet.

Saying - "That's the rule" don't cut it.

Tell me WHY that's the rule.

Rick
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Old 07-17-2018, 08:16 AM   #44
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Rick, it looks like to me that you are not really after a class that is equipment based like you are advocating, more, that you are looking for a class that is based around the equipment in your bow rack, which is why these "debates" always come up in shooting sports. The "I think trad/production (pistol reference)/barebow class should be like X, because it is what I have, and believe it should be that way" mentality.


Once again the only way to get that is to start your own organization, or get on the board of an existing one. As for the reasoning of the rules, you said you were there, so I reckon you know
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Old 07-17-2018, 08:17 AM   #45
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PS, i also shoot my hunting rig
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Old 07-17-2018, 08:20 AM   #46
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Unfortunately "that is the rule" is the only true answer, i didn't right them and have no power to change them.
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Old 07-17-2018, 08:31 AM   #47
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Quote:
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As for the reasoning of the rules, you said you were there, so I reckon you know
I didn't mean I was at the ASA meeting where the rule was adopted.

I meant I was around (long ago), and witnessed it when folks started throwing a fit over, and making arbitrary rules over non accessorized aiming styles.

ASA simply adopted that old rule as an attempt to appease the traditional crowd who do not attend their competitions. Maybe they will come shoot now?

Nothing changed Brother, except there's a new class.

The traditional class/shooters will still have to compete with those "good shooters" shooting metal riser target bows (within the equipment rules) who don't want to go to the barebow class.

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Old 07-17-2018, 08:44 AM   #48
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That was the whole reason for this post, to let people know that there is a place where people who like to string walk, had another place that they could shoot. It was not really meant to be a huge rules/ what is right, wrong, or how it should be post. But, the internet, so..... HAHA
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Old 07-17-2018, 08:46 AM   #49
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Let me give a scenario, and ask a question.

Scenario:
You and I are twin brothers, from a poor family.
You and I love archery and bowhunting.
We/Our Family can only afford one bow, and set of arrows for us to shoot with, but we happily share that bow, and those arrows, and have fun doing it.

BUT, your aiming style makes you a better shot than me.
I don't care, I love my twin brother, and love to shoot with him.
I'm gonna get better, and beat him some day.

We both work hard, save our money, and start going to a few 3D competitions when we can, BUT we are still having to share that same bow, and set of arrows.

``````````````````
Question:
Give me a good/reasonable answer as to:
Why should we have to be separated into different classes just because we aim different, even though it's the exact same bow & arrows?

Rick
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Old 07-17-2018, 10:31 AM   #50
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Ok, I want to preface this by saying that I have no dog in this fight and just started this thread to inform some people of options.

Here is my take on stringwalking vs not in you scenario:

As an organization you have to draw a line somewhere, many drew it at stringwalking, so the question is why there? The simple answer is because when allowed, it has a definite advantage over other non sighted forms, to say otherwise would be a lie. You only have to look at classes that allow it, I would bet that statistically 0 of the top shooters in a bare bow class gap or shoot instinctive and the same would hold true in any other non sighted classes that allowed stringwalking. So by allowing it you effectively require it if someone wants to shoot for the win

So, since bare bow was already around the powers that be probably wanted to allow people that shot single string bows that didn't want to stringwalk a place to compete in equal footing.

So evev if the brothers were using the same one could have a big advantage over the other.

So now answer my questions

1 do you honesty believe that for most people in a target shooting stringwalking is not an advantage?

2 if equipment is as big a deal as you think then why was the highest score posted at vanderpool in 2017 shot with a selfbow?

3also on the equipment front, why should an organization have to adjust their rules to to fit a guy who wants to shoot a 60 # bow and then gripe, cause it ain't fair, when he could buy a bow that fits for not a lot of money?

4 And lastly what is the likely good that you will shoot in either the trad class or the bare bow class?

I can't post on leatherwall right now so feel free to copy and past this response over there for me, if you like
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