Reply
Go Back   TexasBowhunter.com Community Discussion Forums > Topics > Equipment and Tuning
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-07-2018, 01:43 PM   #1
Rat
Ten Point
 
Rat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bertram
Default Short Vs. Long Axle to Axle; Myth, Fact and Opinion...

I hear it all the time, I see it all the time and, as a coach, I am constantly trying to tech someone a less effective way to shoot due to it; It is a short axle to axle bow.

Myth, marketing and hype: A bow can't be a "hunting" bow unless it is short axle to axle. Do not be deceived friends, this is almost always a marketing ploy. For years we had nothing but long axle to axle bows and we hunted with them just fine. In fact, trad shooters of today still use bows in excess of 60 inches to hunt with; so what's the deal? Is a short bow a benefit in a blind, on a stand or when spot and stalking thick brush? Maybe, but does that benefit out weight the costs? Maybe not.

Why you should consider a long(er) axle to axle bow: Accuracy and repeatability.

This weekend my son bought his first bow (with his own money); he shot every bow in the bow shop and ultimately decided on the Centergy Hybrid. Gage is 6 feet tall and a DL of about 28.75 inches. But what I was able to see was, in shooting the shorter bows, how the string angle effected his posture while at full draw very clearly.

With the short bows his head was tilted way down to get his nose on the string, which is how he wants to shoot. It wasn't until he drew the Hybrid, at 35.25" A2A, that he was really comfortable. He picked the bow, and he picked one that fit him well and, I am sure, that he will be able to shoot very accurately because it fits him.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a long axle to axle advocate; I'm a right fit advocate. However, I see so many shooters (hunters) with a 28-30 inch bow that just doesn't fit them. Why? I can only guess, but it probably has something to do with that afore mentioned marketing and what is available and "hot" at the time.

Many people have been taught how to shoot by placing their nose on the string, and this is a good way to do it; unless you ruin your posture in the process. By needing to tilt the head down you build a certain amount of inaccuracy into the system; anchor points aren't the same if there is a lot of movement involved. It's just the nature of the beast. The only real cure for this is shooting many arrows, in the neighborhood of 15-20,000 per year, which is something most hunters aren't going to do. You can get away with a form flaw if you practice it enough, but most of us don't practice enough. This makes it paramount to get our form right and the accuracy (and repeatability) will follow.

I used to shoot a short bow, but I was okay with my nose not touching the string. This kept my head in an upright position but meant that I had to have an alternative anchor point; I used a kisser button. This is the best fix in this scenario, otherwise we are either shooting too long of a draw length or tilting our head (to get our nose to the string); both of which are detrimental to accuracy and repeatability.

Outside of the "form" category, it is universally recognized that a longer bow is more stable, which is why target archers shoot really long bows. They are usually slightly heavier, although this is getting to be less and less; and mass means a more stable bow and, generally, less hand shock.

So, the next time you go bow shopping pay attention to our posture when shooting that new "flavor of the day" bow. Try a longer bow, see if it feels better (it probably will). And remember, long bows kill animals just as dead.

But, if you just have to have that shorter bow, learn to shoot using an alternative anchor, like a kisser button, or a retina lock device. This way you can reap the benefits of both a short bow and good shooting form.
Rat is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 03-07-2018, 01:59 PM   #2
Stoof
Pope & Young
 
Stoof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Souther Austin
Hunt In: Will work for hunts.
Default

I bought the Hoyt we have been discussing just for this reason. My current ride is a Z7 Extreme which as you know is about as short as they come. With all that being said I am still more comfortable with the Extreme. And again, as we have discussed, there is probably some set up and tuning issues to work out with the Hoyt. I am comfortable shooting foam out 90-100 yds with the extreme with about an 8 inch landing pattern.
I guess what I am getting at is that I am not quite sold on the longer ATA quite yet, but I am not done trying.
Stoof is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 03-07-2018, 03:22 PM   #3
Miller
Eight Point
 
Miller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Wimberley
Hunt In: Fort McKavett, Laredo
Default

Great information as usual Rat. I'm so glad I saw the error in my ways and switched to longer Axle to Axle bows. It makes me cringe when I see some of the short little bows that came out this year. I hope the bow manufactures will try to keep the hunting bows in that 32-35 inch range in the future.
Miller is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 03-07-2018, 06:40 PM   #4
Razorback01
Pope & Young
 
Razorback01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Johnson Co.
Hunt In: where my Elite takes me!
Default

Another good information thread. May I add something?

So, the next time you go bow shopping pay attention to our posture (have someone else pay attention) when shooting that new "flavor of the day" bow. Try a longer bow, see if it feels better (it probably will). And remember, long bows kill animals just as dead.
Razorback01 is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 03-07-2018, 07:09 PM   #5
clffrdfdge
Ten Point
 
clffrdfdge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Central Texas
Hunt In: Kempner Texas, Bandera Area
Default

I believe with the more parallel limbs these days the risers are longer therefore giving you the stability almost like a longer axel to axel bow without parallel limbs.
clffrdfdge is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 03-07-2018, 07:52 PM   #6
Jeremy7306
Pope & Young
 
Jeremy7306's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Burleson,TX
Hunt In: Whitney, Anywhere I can find
Default Short Vs. Long Axle to Axle; Myth, Fact and Opinion...

I shoot a ZXT, basically same bow as the Z7 extreme, 28 1/2in ATA, but I donít have an issue cause I donít use a kisser button and have never touched my nose to the string. An archery coach that taught my wife once watched me shoot, and said he didnít know how I was accurate, but not to change anything cause it obviously works for me! I just have the same anchor point I learned to use 20 years ago. just saying cause ya donít necessarily have to use a device or touch nose to be an accurate shooter.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Jeremy7306 is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 03-07-2018, 09:21 PM   #7
Rat
Ten Point
 
Rat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bertram
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by clffrdfdge View Post
I believe with the more parallel limbs these days the risers are longer therefore giving you the stability almost like a longer axel to axel bow without parallel limbs.
Good observation. Modern bows with long, stiff risers, parallel or beyond parallel limbs and big cam systems do have much better string angles than bows of the same A2A length of just a few years ago.

Ultimately, string angle is what we are looking for when we talk about how the string contacts our face in order to keep our posture correct.
Rat is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 03-07-2018, 09:26 PM   #8
Rat
Ten Point
 
Rat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bertram
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy7306 View Post
I shoot a ZXT, basically same bow as the Z7 extreme, 28 1/2in ATA, but I donít have an issue cause I donít use a kisser button and have never touched my nose to the string. An archery coach that taught my wife once watched me shoot, and said he didnít know how I was accurate, but not to change anything cause it obviously works for me! I just have the same anchor point I learned to use 20 years ago. just saying cause ya donít necessarily have to use a device or touch nose to be an accurate shooter.
As a part time coach I tech this exact same thing. There is no perfect form, only perfect form for an individual. Sounds like you have it dialed in and you are right, with a proper and repeatable form you may not need an additional aide.
Rat is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 03-08-2018, 10:31 AM   #9
popup_menace
Pope & Young
 
popup_menace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: El Campo, tx
Hunt In: Back yard, stand, or my dreams
Default

Totally agree, Rat! I really like my 32” ATA bow and may buy a longer ata bow in the future.
popup_menace is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 03-08-2018, 01:19 PM   #10
txcornhusker
Nubbin' Buck
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Prosper Tx
Default

Very informative thread. Thanks!
txcornhusker is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 03-08-2018, 03:27 PM   #11
Miller
Eight Point
 
Miller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Wimberley
Hunt In: Fort McKavett, Laredo
Default

I wish someone with a draw board would get some of the bow models and see what their axle to axle is when at full draw. I've always wanted to see if there is a big difference between the different kind of bows.

For example is what is the axle to axle length of a Halon 32 vs a Prime Centergy at full draw? is there more a less flex in the split limbs vs solid limbs at full draw, etc.?
Miller is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 03-08-2018, 07:31 PM   #12
muddyfuzzy
Ten Point
 
muddyfuzzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: gulf coast
Hunt In: Angelina County, Limpopo SA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller View Post
I wish someone with a draw board would get some of the bow models and see what their axle to axle is when at full draw. I've always wanted to see if there is a big difference between the different kind of bows.

For example is what is the axle to axle length of a Halon 32 vs a Prime Centergy at full draw? is there more a less flex in the split limbs vs solid limbs at full draw, etc.?


I have a draw board but have never taken any measurements of ata while at full draw. Generally speaking I think more deflection occurs with solid limb bows at full draw, at least what Iíve noticed on mine. One of the advantages of split limbs is the fact they cam be preloaded more at brace than their solid limb counterparts, weíve clearly seen evidence of this with the ďbeyond parallelĒ trend that has become very popular the last couple of years. So while you pose an interesting question itís not all things being equal as the design and geometry of the system will ultimately dictate the amount of deflection through the draw cycle continuing to full draw.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
muddyfuzzy is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 03-08-2018, 08:46 PM   #13
Black-N-Red
Eight Point
 
Black-N-Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Willis,Tx
Default

I’ve always wondered about this short vs long ata. This week I’ve been shooting a little & came to realize that I shoot a short bow a lot better than a long bow. Example: my Spyder 34 vs Creed XS. At 40yrds I couldn’t get better than a 3” group with my Spyder 34 but get my Creed XS & was stacking them in a 1.5-2” group. It may have something to do with what I started shooting. My very first bow was a Switchback XT. Mate with more practice with the longer bow I maybe able to shoot it better. But I also feel more comfortable with my shorter bows.
Black-N-Red is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 03-08-2018, 09:58 PM   #14
DRT
Pope & Young
 
DRT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Fort Worth, Tx
Hunt In: Jones and San Saba Counties and Missouri
Default

Like a shorter bow. I have a Carbon Spyder 30. I can drive tacks with it. Then again my Mathews LX was much the same. Just heavier, slower and harder to shoot in an older pop up.

Sent from my SM-J710MN using Tapatalk
DRT is online now   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 03-09-2018, 08:15 AM   #15
Rat
Ten Point
 
Rat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bertram
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller View Post
I wish someone with a draw board would get some of the bow models and see what their axle to axle is when at full draw. I've always wanted to see if there is a big difference between the different kind of bows.

For example is what is the axle to axle length of a Halon 32 vs a Prime Centergy at full draw? is there more a less flex in the split limbs vs solid limbs at full draw, etc.?
String angle is what we should be measuring, at full draw. A couple of years ago Hoyt came out with a marketing ploy that stated their "new" cam system felt like a longer A2A bow. Subsequent measurements at full draw showed this to be what it was, a marketing ploy. 1Nestly did some comparisons on his youtube channel. Exactly what you are asking about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0UEKp8_Eu0&t=2s
IOW, it felt like a 1 inch longer A2A bow; not exactly the mind blowing experience the hype suggested.

I agree, that limb deflection plays a part in that, but what we are really looking at when we talk about the string's interaction with the face, and how it all fits together, is the string angle at full draw.
Rat is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 03-10-2018, 09:27 PM   #16
clay4626
Eight Point
 
clay4626's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Hearne TX
Hunt In: Roberston Co, Lincoln ranch and johnson ranch
Default

lots of good information here. I have a question related to the distance the site is from the riser. I have a Haylon 6 30 ata My site is a fixed single pin hha.
It has three spots to attach to riser. Right now I have it in the middle spot
What do you all suggest I would think the further from the riser the easer to keep head level
clay4626 is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 03-11-2018, 06:22 PM   #17
samson33
Four Point
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Default

I have owned and shot tons of bows. Length has never been much issue for me. For me, things such as riser reflex/deflex and grip have had much bigger roles in shoot-ability
samson33 is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 03-12-2018, 10:13 AM   #18
Rat
Ten Point
 
Rat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bertram
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by clay4626 View Post
lots of good information here. I have a question related to the distance the site is from the riser. I have a Haylon 6 30 ata My site is a fixed single pin hha.
It has three spots to attach to riser. Right now I have it in the middle spot
What do you all suggest I would think the further from the riser the easer to keep head level
The farther out from the riser the pin is located the more accurate it will be. This is due to something called a sight radius. For the same reason a rifle (with a longer sight radius) is more accurate than a pistol (with a shorter sight radius).

Farther away will also mean less pin gap, or closer sight marks on the tape for your single pin set up.

Farther away also means you will see more movement in the sight picture/pin.

The big benefit of having a sight with a dovetail or multiple mounting points is to be able to justify the scope housing with the peep sight. This means we can move the sight in or out to get a perfect eclipse with the peep sight. Many people also use an aperture peep for this so they can use the sight as far out as they want and then use the correct aperture to get the eclipse they want.

Most bowhunters want a sight closer to the riser due to the steadier sight picture and relatively short shooting distances. It also keep the sight from getting banged up due to sticking out much farther (climbing into stands, etc.).

It doesn't really make much difference for the head tilt as the peep is set for the eye, and that doesn't move. For a single pin shooter there is a degree of anchor point movement when shooting different distances, called a floating anchor, but the head should be in the same position while the anchor moves slightly. Now, some people keep the same anchor and use more or less nose into the string, but from a pure form perspective I neither teach nor advocate that approach; but many people do it this way successfully.

In real life order of importance for a bowhunter:

1. Use the mounting positions to get the peep aligned with the scope housing (eclipse). Most accurate at normal hunting distances.

2. Use the mounting positions to get it as far out as possible, for the most accuracy, and install a peep that will align with the scope housing. Most accurate at hunting and longer distances.

Links:
Specialty Archery Aperture peeps and apertures:
https://specialtyarch.com/specialty-peep-system-works/
Rat is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 03-12-2018, 08:41 PM   #19
clay4626
Eight Point
 
clay4626's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Hearne TX
Hunt In: Roberston Co, Lincoln ranch and johnson ranch
Default

thanks rat for the information
clay4626 is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 04-25-2018, 09:21 AM   #20
deerdynasty
Spike
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Default

im an ok shot at best... I picked up 4 2018 bows last month and shot them side by side at a range... between 28 and 36 inches. at 30 yards I was a pro... todays bows shot bullets if TUNED right... I think pulling less weight and having the right bow for your needs is most important... I like short bows in tree stands... easier to manage...
deerdynasty is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 04-25-2018, 09:22 AM   #21
Whiskey Hunter
Nubbin' Buck
 
Whiskey Hunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Annetta South, TX
Default

Good advice
Whiskey Hunter is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 04-25-2018, 10:11 AM   #22
canny
Pope & Young
 
canny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lufkin
Hunt In: Houston & Zavalla
Default

Good post. I have always shot a 33-34" ATA bow as the string angle fit my face very well. Recently I picked up a Hoyt Defiant 30 from the classifieds (I have shot this model before buying) as the claims that the engineering of the cam and limb system allows for a wider string angle. The Hoyt fit me very well, but it wasn't until I was shooting it and my Drenalin side by side till I noticed that it had from what I could tell almost the exact string angle as the Drenalin which is longer ATA.
canny is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 04-30-2018, 10:35 AM   #23
deerdynasty
Spike
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Default

I would shoot what your hunting situation calls for. tree stand hunting I use a very short bow. most of my shots are under 35 yards. spot and stalk and little longer heavier bow...
deerdynasty is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-01-2018, 09:22 AM   #24
Rat
Ten Point
 
Rat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bertram
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by canny View Post
Good post. I have always shot a 33-34" ATA bow as the string angle fit my face very well. Recently I picked up a Hoyt Defiant 30 from the classifieds (I have shot this model before buying) as the claims that the engineering of the cam and limb system allows for a wider string angle. The Hoyt fit me very well, but it wasn't until I was shooting it and my Drenalin side by side till I noticed that it had from what I could tell almost the exact string angle as the Drenalin which is longer ATA.
I'm in the same boat. I just bought a new bow, I shot everything, from 35+ to 28 A2A, and I ended up with the Prime Logic, which is 31" A2A.

As I said before, I'm all about the fit, shoot what fits you. I don't put my nose on the string and I shoot upwards of 12,000 arrows a year; this works for me.

As others have said, other things contribute to the way a bow feels for an individual; axel to axel is only one of those factors.

I cam from shooting my Tribute, I loved that bow. I really wanted to love the Centergy Hybrid, which is 35" A2A, but I ended up with the Logic. It wasn't until after I got her home and was tuning her that I realized how similar the Tribute and the Logic are. No wonder I like it so much!

Anyway, the point of the post was really to point out the fact that you don't NEED a short A2A bow for hunting, this is just marketing hype. IOW, don't let the marketing specialists tell you what you need, find it for yourself.
Rat is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 05-01-2018, 12:04 PM   #25
Robert58
Four Point
 
Robert58's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Azle, Texas
Hunt In: LBJ Grasslands
Default

As mentioned before. String Angle is the most important thing to me. I would like to see a chart of ATA and string angle at full draw.
Robert58 is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-06-2018, 08:00 PM   #26
billp141
Nubbin' Buck
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Default

Great discussion.
billp141 is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-08-2018, 05:51 AM   #27
chris1911
Ten Point
 
chris1911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Longview
Hunt In: Brownwood,Marion
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat View Post
.
Ultimately, string angle is what we are looking for when we talk about how the string contacts our face in order to keep our posture correct.
i went with a longer ATA for this reason. i shot my 28" ATA with a 31" DL bow fine,but, in deep winter when i needed to have a thick face mask i couldnt find my knuckle to jaw bone anchor. after a ton of research i realized i dodnt need to anchor the way i have all my life IF i could get 3 points of contact with the string. well i couldnt get that with the current setup so i bought a 35" ATA, with huge cams landing me around 38" -39" overall. now i can get tip of the nose, corner of mouth and cradle the nock anchor....and clear peep. can shoot with a thick mask and glove too, and shoot a hinge for hunting....longer does make a difference.......so ive heard anyway
chris1911 is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-29-2018, 09:22 AM   #28
express
Spike
 
express's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default

Its all in who is shooting the bow and their form. I've shot short bows and long ATA. The longer the bow the better you are able to stay on target but the lighter shorter bows can be accurate too but the discipline in the hold is harder to find due to lighter bows not being able to stay on target like a longer ata but like I said if you practice with them enough you can be just as accurate.
express is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-29-2018, 09:36 AM   #29
BlackHogDown
Ten Point
 
BlackHogDown's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: NW Houston
Hunt In: Duval County, Livingston
Default

Good read, Rat. Thanks. As a longer, lanky dude, I've found the shorter ATAs don't fit me well.
BlackHogDown is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-29-2018, 09:42 AM   #30
bloodstick
Ten Point
 
bloodstick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Hunt In: All over Texas
Default

My problem with using my nose on the string method is my face. Lol.
I have a big, round melon that if my nose touches the string, i cant look far enough to get a good sight picture. It doesnít line up. So i adapted. I let the string rest on the corner of my cheek bone and my knuckle on my earlobe. Been shooting a Z2 for a while with 30Ē A2A at 29Ē draw.

Im about to go pickup a Triax tomorrow and not have any worries about string angle


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
bloodstick is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Old 06-29-2018, 10:28 AM   #31
dk_ace
Four Point
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Sherman
Hunt In: Grayson and Lamar
Default

I’m 6’ y’all with long arms and draw slightly longer than 30.5”. I think it’s worth adding that not all short bows are created equally. I’ve had short bows that were critical and didn’t handle well at long draw lengths, but I also have a triax that shoots and handles amazingly well at my draw length. The string angle allows for a comfortable anchor and the string touching the top of my nose without dipping my head. I typically set my peep a little snug so that at short distances I’m dipping into it just a little, but that’s a setup choice so that I’m more comfortable when shooting longer distances (shooting a moving sight).

It gets repeated often that longer bows are more stable, but it’s also worth pointing out that short bows with long risers can be very stable. The triax for instance holds nearly as well as my target bow.

I probably wouldn’t shoot a short bow, even the triax, for everything. The target bow is slightly more comfortable for extended target shooting and I can shoot a little higher scores with it. That’s much more a function of the lower draw weight and the higher holding weight though IMO than the ATA length.

I’ve shot short bows that I hated, but some of them are great hunting bows even for long draw guys. I’d much rather carry my triax in the field and through the woods than my longer, heavier bows.

D
dk_ace is offline   Reply With Quote Back To The Top
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright 1999-2012, TexasBowhunter.com