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Old 09-11-2018, 08:44 PM   #101
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If she truly thought that was her apt, she could be aquitted, as accidental shooting because of castle law.
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Old 09-11-2018, 09:14 PM   #102
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If she truly thought that was her apt, she could be aquitted, as accidental shooting because of castle law.
What?
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Old 09-11-2018, 09:17 PM   #103
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If she truly thought that was her apt, she could be aquitted, as accidental shooting because of castle law.
I don't think it works like that.

She shot the guy in his house.
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Old 09-11-2018, 09:18 PM   #104
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If she truly thought that was her apt, she could be aquitted, as accidental shooting because of castle law.


Jesus Christ!!!
Are you serious ?


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Old 09-11-2018, 09:21 PM   #105
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If she truly thought that was her apt, she could be aquitted, as accidental shooting because of castle law.
I'm certainly no attorney, but i think you're on pretty shaky legal ground.
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Old 09-11-2018, 10:02 PM   #106
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If she truly thought that was her apt, she could be aquitted, as accidental shooting because of castle law.
The mere fact that you spelled everything in that post correctly leads me to believe you are smart enough to not really believe that. Novel idea however - you should be a defense attorney!
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Old 09-11-2018, 10:46 PM   #107
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What a horrible situation all around. I feel bad for everybody.
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Old 09-11-2018, 11:15 PM   #108
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Bad deal, No offense to the officer but this seems like it could have been easily avoidable. Deadly force doesnt seem remotely appropriate for the few facts given so far. Hell im sleep deprived every day, thats a **** poor excuse for horrible decision making. punishment shouldnt be any different tham if it was some one in the same boat with out the badge. I support law enforcement but itís hard to stand behind a mistake this reckless.
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Old 09-11-2018, 11:23 PM   #109
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Accident or not. Hang her
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Old 09-11-2018, 11:26 PM   #110
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Accident or not. Hang her
Easy. Not all mistakes deserve deserve that. I hate to talk about slippery slopes, but that certainly fits the bill.
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Old 09-12-2018, 12:06 AM   #111
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Yeah I understand but if that happened to my loved one that's what I would want. She was trained for this situation and chose wrong. She deserves the same. If I did it I'm sure it would happen to me. Eye for and eye. Forgiveness doesnt mean much when someone is 6 feet under.
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Old 09-12-2018, 12:51 AM   #112
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Wow, she not only went into the wrong apartment, she parked on the wrong floor of the parking garage, and didn't even notice that the deceased victim had a red door mat in front of his apt, while she has NO door mat in front of her own apt.
Can't wait to see what her toxicology report shows, because if there's not some drugs/alcohol involved here, then there must've been some other kind of reason/cause, as to how she could've made so many critical errors in judgement, for this scenario to possibly happen.
One witness reported hearing a woman yelling, ďLet me in! Let me in!Ē
If that witness account is accurate it puts extreme doubt on her claim that she mistakenly thought it was her apartment. That story would make no sense.
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Old 09-12-2018, 12:59 AM   #113
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Witness accounts in general are sketchy at best, especially stuff heard through multiple walls at 3 AM. And there are a lot of "Witnesses", that will say whatever they think will produce their desired result, these days.


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Old 09-12-2018, 07:33 AM   #114
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Forgiveness doesnt mean much when someone is 6 feet under.
You're not doing it right.
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Old 09-12-2018, 07:57 AM   #115
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Couple of things. My fiance has worked as a manager for several higher end properties around Houston. Each apartment try's to have a courtesy officer living there rent free from what she has told me.

I've came home after working a long night and went to a floor below mine by accident several times and tried unlocking the door which I was unsuccessful at since it wasn't my apartment. A lot of these apartments look identical each floor.

I'll ask her if it's common for the courtesy officer to have access to all the apartments. Honestly I doubt it though.
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Old 09-12-2018, 08:07 AM   #116
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If it comes out that it wasn't a mistake, throw the book at her. If it was truly a "mistake", I don't know what you do, but letting her off ain't it. It's one thing to accidentally walk into the wrong place. Saying "oops" it was an accident when some innocent guy gets killed is not acceptable. We already accept way too much stupidity in society today, we don't need more of this kind.

Last edited by FVR JR; 09-12-2018 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 09-12-2018, 08:47 AM   #117
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Involuntary manslaughter, 5 years out in three and a half.
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Old 09-12-2018, 12:37 PM   #118
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Couple of things. My fiance has worked as a manager for several higher end properties around Houston. Each apartment try's to have a courtesy officer living there rent free from what she has told me.

I've came home after working a long night and went to a floor below mine by accident several times and tried unlocking the door which I was unsuccessful at since it wasn't my apartment. A lot of these apartments look identical each floor.

I'll ask her if it's common for the courtesy officer to have access to all the apartments. Honestly I doubt it though.
Did you also park in the wrong parking lot??
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Old 09-12-2018, 12:57 PM   #119
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Involuntary manslaughter, 5 years out in three and a half.
That's kind of the feel I'm getting, provided they prove this was, in fact, and accident.
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Old 09-12-2018, 01:25 PM   #120
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If it comes out that it wasn't a mistake, throw the book at her. If it was truly a "mistake", I don't know what you do, but letting her off ain't it. It's one thing to accidentally walk into the wrong place. Saying "oops" it was an accident when some innocent guy gets killed is not acceptable. We already accept way too much stupidity in society today, we don't need more of this kind.
Pretty well sums up my thoughts on the deal. Tragic all the way around but as a LEO she should have been trained for this stuff.
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Old 09-12-2018, 02:27 PM   #121
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If she truly thought that was her apt, she could be aquitted, as accidental shooting because of castle law.
I agree with you... but hate the term castle law or castle doctrine. Those are concepts and opinions, not statutory law.

Defense to prosecution is based on a reasonable belief.

In Texas law if self defense is claimed and evidence of it is allowed in trial, the state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defense did not exist.
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Old 09-12-2018, 02:41 PM   #122
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Not exactly the same but.....

About 6 weeks ago police in Colorado shot and killed a man in his own home after the family called the police for a burglary in progress. The homeowner did have a gun but was defending his family from an actual intruder. It looks like the homeowner didnít comply with commands to drop the weapon and was killed. A completely innocent man who was defending his family from an actual intruder was shot and killed by the police. Does that officer(s) go to jail for murder?

In both cases a completely innocent person is killed by the police acting in a reasonable belief (assuming the officer in Dallas actually made a mistake).

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbc...amp/ncna896041
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Old 09-12-2018, 03:24 PM   #123
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Accident or not. Hang her
This is the most ignorant comment on this thread, which has quite a few ignorant comments in it.
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Old 09-12-2018, 03:47 PM   #124
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There is always 3 sides to every story....we may never know for sure
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Old 09-12-2018, 04:13 PM   #125
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If she truly thought that was her apt, she could be aquitted, as accidental shooting because of castle law.
it is not an accidental shooting! it was a deliberate shooting, the outcome is as yet to be determined
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Old 09-12-2018, 04:45 PM   #126
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it is not an accidental shooting! it was a deliberate shooting, the outcome is as yet to be determined
I have made that statement on various forums and to officers at work discussing it. I believe reckless Manslaughter is a totally wrong charge and she intended to do what she did. The only question then becomes, is there a defense under Chapter 9 of the Penal Code, does she have a defense from prosecution.
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Old 09-12-2018, 05:23 PM   #127
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I have made that statement on various forums and to officers at work discussing it. I believe reckless Manslaughter is a totally wrong charge and she intended to do what she did. The only question then becomes, is there a defense under Chapter 9 of the Penal Code, does she have a defense from prosecution.
i am glad in this case i do not have to decide,,, after doing 30 as an leo,, i also worked some long and tiring shifts,,, once having worked 24 hours straight through,,,, i have never been confused on were i lived however,,, and i have lived in apartments were everyone looked the same... i for one will withhold most of what i think until all or at least most facts are known
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Old 09-12-2018, 06:01 PM   #128
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Im not going to say throw the book at her right away but. For those defending the possibility of just a random mistake. What if she was not a LEO and rather just a woman with an LTC and had the same outcome?

I heard it was after a long 13hr shift. I bet there are several in this thread that work those hours pretty regular. So I'm kinda on the fence as to what should happen to her. If you believe a regular person would get the book thrown at them, then IMO a LEO should be held to a higher standard and def be punished.

Sad sad deal for sure
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Old 09-12-2018, 06:20 PM   #129
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I just don't see how a person, police or otherwise (though you'd think police would be held to a higher standard), can kill someone and just say it was an accident. I just go back to the idea of knowing your target. Rule 1.

But assuming it was decided to have been an accident, and for the sake of argument a 5 year sentence is imposed and out of jail in three years, folks had better get ready for some stuff to burn. Nationwide. I hope i'm wrong.

I have no idea what a "fair" punishment would be. Nothing is bringing Botham Jean back, nothing is going to undo Amanda Guyger going to wrong apartment and making the mistake of her life. Horrible.
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Old 09-12-2018, 06:23 PM   #130
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Definitely not murder as there has to be intent. If it was a case of mistaken apartment there was no premeditation, so murder is out. Manslaughter possibly if they can prove she was reckless. In my opinion it would fall more under criminal negligence so criminally negligent homocide would be a better fit.


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Old 09-12-2018, 06:26 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by tvc184 View Post
Not exactly the same but.....

About 6 weeks ago police in Colorado shot and killed a man in his own home after the family called the police for a burglary in progress. The homeowner did have a gun but was defending his family from an actual intruder. It looks like the homeowner didnít comply with commands to drop the weapon and was killed. A completely innocent man who was defending his family from an actual intruder was shot and killed by the police. Does that officer(s) go to jail for murder?

In both cases a completely innocent person is killed by the police acting in a reasonable belief (assuming the officer in Dallas actually made a mistake).

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbc...amp/ncna896041
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Originally Posted by tvc184 View Post
I have made that statement on various forums and to officers at work discussing it. I believe reckless Manslaughter is a totally wrong charge and she intended to do what she did. The only question then becomes, is there a defense under Chapter 9 of the Penal Code, does she have a defense from prosecution.
Can we get a synopsis of Chapter 9 of the Penal Code?
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Old 09-12-2018, 06:29 PM   #132
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It's definitely sad deal but from the information released I don't see any criminal intent so a definite no on charging her with murder.
Manslaughter is a definite possibility IMO as it does seem more like negligence.

They live one floor apart in apartments stacked on top of each other both with a very similar layout. If it were you entering what you at the time thought was your residence and seeing a large figure there what would your reaction be? Wether LEO or not she still shot and killed a man in his own residence.

Very much a Mistake of fact with the lack of known intent.


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Old 09-12-2018, 09:03 PM   #133
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I was reading some criminal defense attorney opinions on this case. If charged with murder a “mistake of fact” defense could allow her to walk if the jury buys it. If charged with manslaughter the prosecution has to prove recklessness. The evidence would show she was not reckless, she shot him on purpose. I do not envy the prosecutors on this - coming up with the right strategy - with the greatest chance of achieving justice - is very difficult. There is no way everyone will be happy with the results
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Old 09-12-2018, 10:20 PM   #134
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Can we get a synopsis of Chapter 9 of the Penal Code?


From my brief look over Chapter 9 of the Penal code this is what stuck out to me and seems to fit the circumstances well.

Sec. 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE. (a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force. The actor's belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:

(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used:

(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;




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Old 09-13-2018, 07:37 AM   #135
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Did you also park in the wrong parking lot??
Mine along with many apartments have a parking garage like those you find downtown. One level looks the same as the next and are only labeled on the pillar of the ramp leading to that level. So no I was in the right lot, just the wrong level.
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Old 09-13-2018, 07:47 AM   #136
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Common sense says if a good man is dead because you shot him in his home, there needs to be severe punishment.

I dont care what she believed. That's second to the fact that she killed him.
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Old 09-13-2018, 08:35 AM   #137
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Mine along with many apartments have a parking garage like those you find downtown. One level looks the same as the next and are only labeled on the pillar of the ramp leading to that level. So no I was in the right lot, just the wrong level.


I understand that...... My point was that she committed several different screw ups, before she got to the really big one and killed a man, who seems to have a to been doing nothing more than minding his own business, in his own apt. Based on the info/conjecture that has been offered so far, something just doesn't add up here, IMHO.
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Old 09-13-2018, 09:07 AM   #138
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I just don't see how a person, police or otherwise (though you'd think police would be held to a higher standard), can kill someone and just say it was an accident. I just go back to the idea of knowing your target. Rule 1.

But assuming it was decided to have been an accident, and for the sake of argument a 5 year sentence is imposed and out of jail in three years, folks had better get ready for some stuff to burn. Nationwide. I hope i'm wrong.

I have no idea what a "fair" punishment would be. Nothing is bringing Botham Jean back, nothing is going to undo Amanda Guyger going to wrong apartment and making the mistake of her life. Horrible.
The shooting was not an accident.

She knew her target. She saw a threat, aimed at it and hit her target.

An accident is like shooting at a target and hitting something else or playing with a gun and accidentally pulling the trigger.
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Old 09-13-2018, 09:21 AM   #139
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Definitely not murder as there has to be intent. If it was a case of mistaken apartment there was no premeditation, so murder is out. Manslaughter possibly if they can prove she was reckless. In my opinion it would fall more under criminal negligence so criminally negligent homocide would be a better fit.


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While I think a jury might clear her, I believe that the correct charge in this case is Murder and not Manslaughter.

Texas has no premeditation and intent to kill is also not required. The law is Intentionally OR Knowingly. Knowingly is when a person should anticipate the result. In this case a person intentionally fired a gun into a person's center mass. That is knowingly no matter if the person intended to kill or simply stop.

The officer was charged with recklessly killing someone. In my opinion that is nonsense. She wasnít target practicing or playing with her handgun and accidentally fired a shot. She looked at a man, pointed her pistol and pulled the trigger twice.

The reckless part in this case was not knowing where she was, not how she took a life. A DA can charge what he/she wants but I think that here they wanted to charge her something to calm people down.
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Old 09-13-2018, 09:30 AM   #140
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Her body cam footage should clear most of this up since she was in uniform right? What and how she interacted with him should give a decent indication of her thoughts and intent as well as any danger she was in.
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Old 09-13-2018, 09:37 AM   #141
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Her body cam footage should clear most of this up since she was in uniform right? What and how she interacted with him should give a decent indication of her thoughts and intent as well as any danger she was in.


Why would she have a body cam running, when she's off duty, at home?
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Old 09-13-2018, 09:48 AM   #142
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Why would she have a body cam running, when she's off duty, at home?
Definitely not at home.
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Old 09-13-2018, 09:54 AM   #143
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i'm worried she is going to either get off completely or be given some light sentence and that will just exacerbate the tragedy of the entire situation. she should be in jail for the next 15-20 years.
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Old 09-13-2018, 09:57 AM   #144
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The shooting was not an accident.

She knew her target. She saw a threat, aimed at it and hit her target.

An accident is like shooting at a target and hitting something else or playing with a gun and accidentally pulling the trigger.
Agreed. Just to be clear: I don't believe it was an accident. She made a horrible decision and, in my opinion, should be punished accordingly. But, what a court or jury may decide is another matter...
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Old 09-13-2018, 10:01 AM   #145
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The shooting was not an accident.

She knew her target. She saw a threat, aimed at it and hit her target.

An accident is like shooting at a target and hitting something else or playing with a gun and accidentally pulling the trigger.
She did not know her target. A mistake was definitely made.

She mistakenly saw a target. Her mistake cost him his life.
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Old 09-13-2018, 10:01 AM   #146
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Insert rampant speculations and arbitrary theories with absolutely no information about the situation except from a disinformation producing news outlet that also was not present.
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Old 09-13-2018, 10:01 AM   #147
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Definitely not at home.
She (allegedly) thought she was at her apt........that's "home" in most people's opinion, right??
Maybe I made an incorrect assumption, but I wouldn't expect a LEO to have their body cam on 24/7; especially when they're off duty.
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Old 09-13-2018, 10:02 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by QuackHunter View Post
From my brief look over Chapter 9 of the Penal code this is what stuck out to me and seems to fit the circumstances well.

Sec. 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE. (a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force. The actor's belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:

(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used:

(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;




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It wasn't the actors occupied habitation. We have her word, and no reason to believe otherwise, that she thought it was her habitation. I don't see that she would have protection under that code. But, alas, i know nothing. We'll see...
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Old 09-13-2018, 10:20 AM   #149
Traildust
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Heard an interview will the familys lawyer of the dead guy. Said she didnt know him and that she killed him because he was black.
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Old 09-13-2018, 10:20 AM   #150
JHT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyMikey View Post
She (allegedly) thought she was at her apt........that's "home" in most people's opinion, right??
Maybe I made an incorrect assumption, but I wouldn't expect a LEO to have their body cam on 24/7; especially when they're off duty.
I was just saying we can count this as fact not speculation.

Or can we?
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