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    #46
    Originally posted by MQ32Shooter View Post
    I really envy you guys that have the ability to full deer. The state of Texas tells me what bucks I can and can’t cull based solely on width.
    Those antler restrictions have done more for the age structure of the deer herd than anything since the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.

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      #47
      Originally posted by Encinal View Post
      It’s a challenge for the average hunter to tell a 120 from a 150.

      If you know what you are looking for, it’s plain as day.
      Not with my deer it isn't plain as day. Not sure what released breeder deer you guys are used to seeing all the time? Maybe some with a lot of Northern blood?? A bunch of nontypicals?
      My deer are gray, almost black, especially in the fall and winter. Same color as our so called native South Texas and Mexico deer.
      I have hunted Mexico for a Looooong time, seen a gazillion deer. We have release deer down there too. The only way we can tell them from the "wild" deer is the tag.
      Most of the guys I hunt with are in their 60's and 70's and have been hunting down South their whole lives.
      They will tell you that they "saw a hell of a young buck that had a tag in it's ear".
      Or, they will describe a big deer to me and I will ask them if it had a "whatever color" tag.
      If they didn't see it, curiosity will usually get the best of them and they will go back and look for it. Usually, if the deer shows back up, Boom!! There it is.

      Not once has one mentioned that the deer looked different or out of place.

      Edit: Oh, and I guess my Texas boys are better than average hunters. They can at least age and score pretty well.
      I just think they would have a hard time telling a deers bloodline by looking at it's body.
      Last edited by bukkskin; 05-08-2018, 10:15 PM.

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        #48
        Originally posted by bukkskin View Post
        Not with my deer it isn't plain as day. Not sure what released breeder deer you guys are used to seeing all the time? Maybe some with a lot of Northern blood?? A bunch of nontypicals?
        My deer are gray, almost black, especially in the fall and winter. Same color as our so called native South Texas and Mexico deer.
        I have hunted Mexico for a Looooong time, seen a gazillion deer. We have release deer down there too. The only way we can tell them from the "wild" deer is the tag.
        Most of the guys I hunt with are in their 60's and 70's and have been hunting down South their whole lives.
        They will tell you that they "saw a hell of a young buck that had a tag in it's ear".
        Or, they will describe a big deer to me and I will ask them if it had a "whatever color" tag.
        If they didn't see it, curiosity will usually get the best of them and they will go back and look for it. Usually, if the deer shows back up, Boom!! There it is.

        Not once has one mentioned that the deer looked different or out of place.

        Edit: Oh, and I guess my Texas boys are better than average hunters. They can at least age and score pretty well.
        I just think they would have a hard time telling a deers bloodline by looking at it's body.


        Please keep your test tube deer tagged. They need to wear earrings so we can tell them apart! [emoji38][emoji38][emoji38][emoji38]

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          #49
          Originally posted by bukkskin View Post
          If all those deer were 4 1/2 or older I would absolutely take them out of the herd. For the reasons you listed and also to keep them from possibly injuring a deer with real potential.
          The one on the skinning rack was 3.5 or 4.5. The rest were 4.5 to 8.5 based on totally inaccurate tooth wear aging. I thought we were doing good by removing them from the herd, but apparently we were just shooting bucks that would have no impact on the herd whether they lived or died. Heck we shouldn't even call them culls, they are bucks.

          Comment


            #50
            Originally posted by bukkskin View Post
            Not with my deer it isn't plain as day. Not sure what released breeder deer you guys are used to seeing all the time? Maybe some with a lot of Northern blood?? A bunch of nontypicals?
            My deer are gray, almost black, especially in the fall and winter. Same color as our so called native South Texas and Mexico deer.
            I have hunted Mexico for a Looooong time, seen a gazillion deer. We have release deer down there too. The only way we can tell them from the "wild" deer is the tag.
            Most of the guys I hunt with are in their 60's and 70's and have been hunting down South their whole lives.
            They will tell you that they "saw a hell of a young buck that had a tag in it's ear".
            Or, they will describe a big deer to me and I will ask them if it had a "whatever color" tag.
            If they didn't see it, curiosity will usually get the best of them and they will go back and look for it. Usually, if the deer shows back up, Boom!! There it is.

            Not once has one mentioned that the deer looked different or out of place.

            Edit: Oh, and I guess my Texas boys are better than average hunters. They can at least age and score pretty well.
            I just think they would have a hard time telling a deers bloodline by looking at it's body.
            Point is, they aren’t the same. I don’t share Other folks’ hostility towards the existence or the practice of breeding. My animus is exclusively reserved for those folks who irresponsibly move deer.

            Trying to put them in a category they don’t deserve to share with other deer is just annoyingly dishonest, and I know you’ve worded your posts just to for that purpose since you consider us “haters” to stir the pot. No sweat. What I’m not sure of though is if you actually are observant enough of your own animals to be able to tell (and being intentionally misleading) or just not that observant.
            Last edited by Encinal; 05-09-2018, 05:23 AM.

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              #51
              Are some of you guys serious? Do you have any experience managing a low fence or high fence place large enough to have a true impact. The statement " I wish the state of Texas would allow me to shoot a deer that walks out in front of me because I like it" is exactly why many of us LOVE that law. If you aren't smart enough to not shoot babies, then maybe you are enough of a law abiding citizen that prevents you from doing so.

              My goodness folks, you can definitely alter the genetics of deer on a place. Not 180 degrees, but you can definitely push it up or down the bell curve a little.

              Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

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                #52
                Originally posted by elgato View Post
                I’m going to shoot that ‘inferior ‘ buck to improve the genetics on my ranch. But I’m shooting that trophy cause...he’s a trophy. Hmmm seems counterintuitive to me.


                Every study without fail I have ever seen showes culling a genetic impossibility.
                Rusty, that is not always the case. Year before last we killed right at 50 mature slick 8's and below. 1 trophy was killed that year.
                Last year we killed around 30 mature slick 8's and below. 1 trophy.

                Originally posted by Sticks&Strings View Post
                Are some of you guys serious? Do you have any experience managing a low fence or high fence place large enough to have a true impact. The statement " I wish the state of Texas would allow me to shoot a deer that walks out in front of me because I like it" is exactly why many of us LOVE that law. If you aren't smart enough to not shoot babies, then maybe you are enough of a law abiding citizen that prevents you from doing so.

                My goodness folks, you can definitely alter the genetics of deer on a place. Not 180 degrees, but you can definitely push it up or down the bell curve a little.

                Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
                It's just a 5 yr study, offspring haven't even matured yet.
                Just shake your head up and down and say "OK" to the "experts"

                Comment


                  #53
                  On our place when we say "Cull" we are not implying that we are trying to genetically modify our herd. That's not a feasible task. We have lots of deer with lots of variety across the gene pools. When we "Cull" something, we are simply saying that the deer being killed is garbage and we believe it will always be garbage. We kill him in hopes that something with more desirable antlers will move in to fill his place. Its a never ending battle that we enjoy fighting!

                  Comment


                    #54
                    On my low fence place I'm trying to improve habitat and food sources and let the bucks reach maturity. When I shoot a "cull" I'm not kidding myself that I'm changing the quality of my deer herd. That's what the habitat improvement, food sources and letting deer mature is for. When I shoot a cull all I'm doing is taking a mouth off the place and that's good enough for me.

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Originally posted by WItoTX View Post
                      A doe contributes 50% of the genetics. No more, no less. To assert a fawn will receive more than 50% of its genetics from any one parent isn't true. However, mom will have a greater influence on the health of the fawn, as the fawn lives with her for the first year.

                      True culling is the removal of mouths to feed on the land so that way each animal gets adequate food, water, and shelter. With those three things, even small bucks will become big fast. How a person determines which deer are "culls" is up to the individual landowner though.
                      The article posted, according to their study, the doe has more to do with antler genetics or at least as much as the buck. Something about DNA link or chromosome size and length....yeah, I don't know about all that. I just want to hunt and take the best deer I can. It is however interesting be it true or false.

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                        #56
                        I have no plans to enter this fray. All I will do is regurgitate what our real life experience over 11 years on a 16,000 acre LF ranch and what it has produced.

                        If left totally alone, I believe the 8 point genetic will rule. Look at the Hill Country before protein and management. I grew up hunting that area 40-50 years ago when protein, cottonseed, or management was not even a thought. Most every deer was an 8 point or less. That is nature doing what it is designed to do without manipulation.

                        I agree that culling does not change genetics. But if I have different sets of genetics in a herd, both good and bad, and if I consistently remove the "bad" genetic deer (8 points and under) so that they do not breed, then over time it seems I am leaving the better genetic deer (10 pts and up, stickers, splits, drops) to breed then eventually it has to improve the overall herd for the better. We have seen so many bucks over the years that are clearly off spring of a previous trophy we killed.

                        We are very aggressive with our culling (when I say cull I include management deer too - 8 points or less and 3-4 years old and under 140 inches) We have so many 2-4 year old multi point bucks with kickers, stickers, etc. and score high even at young ages that there is zero reason to let an 8 point or less walk.

                        The quality of our deer has improved over the past 11 years dramatically. We take 170 to 200 inch deer consistently year after year. We also take a significant amount of does each year if range conditions are good.

                        So I am no expert on the studies - all I know is that if "it ain't broke don't fix it" as far as our ranch goes.

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Originally posted by Sticks&Strings View Post
                          Are some of you guys serious? Do you have any experience managing a low fence or high fence place large enough to have a true impact. The statement " I wish the state of Texas would allow me to shoot a deer that walks out in front of me because I like it" is exactly why many of us LOVE that law. If you aren't smart enough to not shoot babies, then maybe you are enough of a law abiding citizen that prevents you from doing so.

                          My goodness folks, you can definitely alter the genetics of deer on a place. Not 180 degrees, but you can definitely push it up or down the bell curve a little.

                          Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
                          if you can alter the genetics on a low fence place then you are doing something all of the top whitetail experts in the world have not been able to do

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                            #58
                            Originally posted by Javelin View Post
                            if you can alter the genetics on a low fence place then you are doing something all of the top whitetail experts in the world have not been able to do
                            Who are these "experts" you speak of? You can't change a deers genetics, but you can modify/improve the genetic profile of your deer herd. If you killed all the short people in a city, do you think the majority of babies made by only tall people will be tall or short?

                            Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

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                              #59
                              Originally posted by Sticks&Strings View Post
                              Who are these "experts" you speak of? You can't change a deers genetics, but you can modify/improve the genetic profile of your deer herd. If you killed all the short people in a city, do you think the majority of babies made by only tall people will be tall or short?

                              Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
                              I have been trying this argument for years, and nobody seems to agree.

                              If you wanted a professional basketball player, would you bet on the son of Danny Devito crossed with a Mayan women. Or, the son of David Robison and a 6'2" volleyball player?

                              I mean, duh!!!!

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Originally posted by bukkskin View Post
                                I have been trying this argument for years, and nobody seems to agree.

                                If you wanted a professional basketball player, would you bet on the son of Danny Devito crossed with a Mayan women. Or, the son of David Robison and a 6'2" volleyball player?

                                I mean, duh!!!!
                                Lol, well the three biologists we have used also agree with this. They also said this.

                                If I was given the best nutrition in the world, I still wouldn't be 6'5" because it's not in my genetic makeup, but I can be a pretty good looking 5'11". So nutrition is important but genetics determine the most. However, it also is a bell curve just like anything and everything else. Remove the far left end of the bell curve, and it shifts. Pretty simple logic.

                                Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

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