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Old 02-12-2018, 06:01 PM   #1
Dry Bones
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I have been shooting a G5 Quest Rogue for a few years now and have had zero reason for another compound. The fun thing to me about this bow is that I can change the draw cycle VERY easily.
With that being said, I have been shooting a longbow that is within a couple pounds of my compound. ( LB = 65# compound 68#)
I draw 27" on both bows.
My question is, IF I change the set-up of my compound to basically not have any letoff do I gain any performance? Currently I get almost 80% let off, but would removing the drop out of weight gain any performance?

This is not a question built out of necessity. As the last couple seasons I have been using the Carnifour Broadhead from Grim Reaper and have yet to not get at least the head hanging out of the off side. Most shots are clean through.

I only want to know from someone who understands this stuff a little better then I do, if I gain anything by holding more weight in the backdraw? and is so is it marginal at best?

Thanks for the help.
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Old 02-12-2018, 08:33 PM   #2
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I could be wrong but the way the cam rolls over I'm not sure you can go to zero let off. I'm interested to know myself.
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Old 02-12-2018, 08:36 PM   #3
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I would say you would gain some, the only way to know how much would be to chrono it and see
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Old 02-12-2018, 08:42 PM   #4
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In order to get no let off , unfortunately, I would set the draw length a little further, but keep the stop in place.. I think. Maybe?
As long as that did not make the poundage come down any at my draw?
Again just throwing out some food for thought right now. I do realize that by moving the draw further the cam rotation will not be complete, which gives us more let-off at the back of the rotation. Basically trying to stop the rotation at the top peak, just before break over.
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Old 02-12-2018, 08:45 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dry Bones View Post
In order to get no let off , unfortunately, I would set the draw length a little further, but keep the stop in place.. I think. Maybe?
As long as that did not make the poundage come down any at my draw?
Again just throwing out some food for thought right now. I do realize that by moving the draw further the cam rotation will not be complete, which gives us more let-off at the back of the rotation. Basically trying to stop the rotation at the top peak, just before break over.
In for the video of this. Sounds dangerous as h$ll....
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Old 02-12-2018, 08:47 PM   #6
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I would think you would lose energy by not letting the cam work to its full potential. You would also not be flexing the limbs to their full potential.
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Old 02-12-2018, 08:48 PM   #7
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Stoof, that is what I have been trying to figure out. Of course I could let the draw stop all the way out and then use a solid anchor point just like my longbow?

Let off does nothing for performance of the bow, it is only useful to the shooter in order to give you a low poundage to hold once at full draw allowing for longer times to line up pins, peeps, etc. And for some allowing them to draw a bow that is actually to stout for them but if they can just get it broke over .... Wrong soap box, anyhow.
Trying to figure out all the what if's of trying to do away with let off and utilize the cam rotation.

Last edited by Dry Bones; 02-12-2018 at 08:56 PM.
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Old 02-12-2018, 09:01 PM   #8
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The only compound bow i can think of that doesn't have let off is a genesis bow. And they are designed that way to accommodate any draw length for new, young shooters but the cam still has to roll over to get the most potential energy from that bow.
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Old 02-12-2018, 09:18 PM   #9
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Why do you think removing the draw stop will remove all let-off? Let-off comes from cam rollover, so you would need a round cam, less aggressive cam, or cam mod to lose let off.
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Old 02-13-2018, 07:03 AM   #10
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In order to get no let off , unfortunately, I would set the draw length a little further, but keep the stop in place.. I think. Maybe?
As long as that did not make the poundage come down any at my draw?
Again just throwing out some food for thought right now. I do realize that by moving the draw further the cam rotation will not be complete, which gives us more let-off at the back of the rotation. Basically trying to stop the rotation at the top peak, just before break over.
If the bow is modular, you can start by leaving DS At your current setting, then put the 1/2 inch longer module in.
You should be able to get the performance of the additional power force curve, and LESS let-off, but not zero.
If you can shoot this setting comfortably, you can try the 1 full inch longer mod, and leave the DS at the same place, but I don't think you'll be able to peak the power force curve of the full inch, and you will be holding peak weight.
At best, I think with either of these, you will gain 5 to 7 fps if any.
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Old 02-13-2018, 07:03 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dry Bones View Post
In order to get no let off , unfortunately, I would set the draw length a little further, but keep the stop in place.. I think. Maybe?
As long as that did not make the poundage come down any at my draw?
Again just throwing out some food for thought right now. I do realize that by moving the draw further the cam rotation will not be complete, which gives us more let-off at the back of the rotation. Basically trying to stop the rotation at the top peak, just before break over.
yes try this and see what happens I would think as long as you set the draw 1 inch longer then the stops you will have what your looking for. I don't see how this will hurt anything. good luck.
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Old 02-13-2018, 08:10 AM   #12
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I’m curious to see what happens. I’m not an engineer, but it seems like robbing the bow of the full power curve would hinder performance.
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Old 02-13-2018, 08:27 AM   #13
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Thanks to all who have posted. I have been thinking about this for a while. and wanted some more input before I start to tinker.
In essence, I have been trying to figure out how to get the bow to stop at the most compression before let off occurs, thinking that maybe the brief moment when the bow goes from say 15# to 68# it would start at 68.
Would it change anything, I don't know, that's the point of the thread.
I reading I guess the deal about moving the stop probably is not the answer. More likely it will be with the draw mod.
It's a good idea to try it at 1/2" longer first, then increase to 1". BUT @ 1" more draw curve am I really gaining anything??
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Old 02-13-2018, 09:13 AM   #14
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This is what your wanting to try Iíve done this trying to shorten draw on my apa. I saw now speed gain at all. But it might not be same for other bows I do not know
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Old 02-13-2018, 09:37 AM   #15
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Now I'm not arguing just trying to imagine how any more energy could be created by doing this. We are basically talking about about a dynamically loaded system of levers and pulleys that is engineered to be as efficient as possible in the state that is was designed to operate. Not letting the cam roll over will not compress the limbs to full potential. That is the picture I have in my head anyways.
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Old 02-13-2018, 09:53 AM   #16
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enewman, that is what I am most curious about. And Stoof I agree, but again inquiring mind.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:04 AM   #17
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It seems counter-intuitive, but the more let off you have, the more speed you can get, but it doesn't make that big of a difference in the grand scheme of things (< 5 fps). The way it makes sense to me is that there is more acceleration of the arrow from a higher let off bow. Other people are correct that compound bows are designed to get their benefit from the cams and limb compression. If you want to increase performance, the most efficient ways are to lengthen your draw length (if possible) and increase draw weight.
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Old 02-13-2018, 12:30 PM   #18
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Due to weather I was not able to get any real work done today, so I made the most of it with this thread and then shooting. Sorry no video as I don't post videos. AND I do not have a chronograph, so results are not real scientific.
My bow has an draw length adjustable cam, so I can turn the draw mod to accommodate anything from 26-30"
I started in 1/2" increments. Unfortunately I found that the more I moved into longer draw the actual less total poundage from the bow at my desired anchor, and more hold weight. I know I do not completely understand cam systems and today proved it. When I finally had the mod turned to a 29" draw the let-off became minimal, but the bow never reached the overall poundage I had before actually showing 5 less pounds. without the true speed reading I know I may be leaving something on the table somewhere, but I cannot find it.
Ultimately I did increase my draw length a little and moved the draw mod ahead. Still comfortable and now i need a little sight tuning but probably nothing significant has changed. Draw mod to 28.5" draw and draw stop at 27.75" the cams are turning over and I am holding just over 20#. Total penetration is showing <1" more then I was getting originally.
Fun day spent playing and again thanks to all who posted.
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Old 02-14-2018, 09:29 AM   #19
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Not sure how I missed this thread, but what you found is what I was going to point out.

If you do as Rocky and Enewman have said you will end up with lower draw weight over all; this is due to not letting the cams roll over fully to deflect the limbs.

What you have done illustrated this.

All you need to do now is twist the cables to get the poundage back; and you may need to make slightly shorter cables. I would twist the cables to get the poundage back and then make new cables based on the measurement of the twisted cables. It will be a lot of twisting to get that bow back up to peak draw weight.

You are on the right track, you just need to keep going.
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:07 AM   #20
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Thanks for the response Rat. I may have to invest in a bow vise before I start twisting cables and making my own, (or ordering them to the desired specification). With this amount of decrease in cable length will the resting Brace height come up? any prolonged danger in the added constant compression?
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:52 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat View Post
Not sure how I missed this thread, but what you found is what I was going to point out.

If you do as Rocky and Enewman have said you will end up with lower draw weight over all; this is due to not letting the cams roll over fully to deflect the limbs.

What you have done illustrated this.

All you need to do now is twist the cables to get the poundage back; and you may need to make slightly shorter cables. I would twist the cables to get the poundage back and then make new cables based on the measurement of the twisted cables. It will be a lot of twisting to get that bow back up to peak draw weight.

You are on the right track, you just need to keep going.
I just pulled a bow off the rack, and tested poundage at 29” 80 percent let off. 69 lbs. Set drawstop to 28.5 and tested, 69 lbs. Both settings shot the exact same speed, just had higher holding weight at 28.5. Did not move module from 29.
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Old 02-14-2018, 01:57 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dry Bones View Post
Thanks for the response Rat. I may have to invest in a bow vise before I start twisting cables and making my own, (or ordering them to the desired specification). With this amount of decrease in cable length will the resting Brace height come up? any prolonged danger in the added constant compression?
Yes, twisting up the cables will increase the brace height, and slightly increase the draw length. No danger to the limbs unless you get over the rated maximum draw weight.
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Old 02-14-2018, 03:54 PM   #23
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Gotcha, thank you.
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Old 02-14-2018, 07:31 PM   #24
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If the bow is modular, you can start by leaving DS At your current setting, then put the 1/2 inch longer module in.
You should be able to get the performance of the additional power force curve, and LESS let-off, but not zero.
If you can shoot this setting comfortably, you can try the 1 full inch longer mod, and leave the DS at the same place, but I don't think you'll be able to peak the power force curve of the full inch, and you will be holding peak weight.
At best, I think with either of these, you will gain 5 to 7 fps if any.
T
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat View Post
Not sure how I missed this thread, but what you found is what I was going to point out.

If you do as Rocky and Enewman have said you will end up with lower draw weight over all; this is due to not letting the cams roll over fully to deflect the limbs.

What you have done illustrated this.

All you need to do now is twist the cables to get the poundage back; and you may need to make slightly shorter cables. I would twist the cables to get the poundage back and then make new cables based on the measurement of the twisted cables. It will be a lot of twisting to get that bow back up to peak draw weight.

You are on the right track, you just need to keep going.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rocky View Post
I just pulled a bow off the rack, and tested poundage at 29Ē 80 percent let off. 69 lbs. Set drawstop to 28.5 and tested, 69 lbs. Both settings shot the exact same speed, just had higher holding weight at 28.5. Did not move module from 29.
At what point in this conversation/ question, have you missed this info?
Rat is wrong about not acquiring peak weight.
I've been doing this type of modification for several years, and ultimately, most shooters simply revert to factory settings for hold.
5 fps is not worth the higher holding weight.
These techno/internet/AT/graphs and chart guys need to actually TEST the questions asked before responding with a "others on different forums agree" answers.
I literally took a bow off the shelf, and adjusted as you asked, and posted the results.
I understand that I didn't test wit EHFOC arrows, as these results might be different.
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Old 02-14-2018, 08:04 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocky View Post
T



At what point in this conversation/ question, have you missed this info?
Rat is wrong about not acquiring peak weight.
I've been doing this type of modification for several years, and ultimately, most shooters simply revert to factory settings for hold.
5 fps is not worth the higher holding weight.
These techno/internet/AT/graphs and chart guys need to actually TEST the questions asked before responding with a "others on different forums agree" answers.
I literally took a bow off the shelf, and adjusted as you asked, and posted the results.
I understand that I didn't test wit EHFOC arrows, as these results might be different.
Oooookay...

Dry Bones can't simply just move the draw stop, this will shorten the draw length, he has to increase the draw length and then adjust the draw stop. Depending on the cam's draw force curve this may decrease draw weight.

He made the adjustments, and posted his results, I was just trying to tell him how to get the bow back up to poundage based on what he had done. Your test bow is different than his bow, obviously, as the results were different.

I'm not saying I'm always right, but calling me some internet tuning no nothing is a personal affront. I have been tuning, coaching and shooting for 25 years. I'm not a know nothing idiot.

Having said all that, I agree with what you said about the performance gains not being worth the modification. But if Dry Bones wants to learn that for himself I will help him any way I can.
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Old 02-14-2018, 08:13 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rat View Post
Oooookay...

Dry Bones can't simply just move the draw stop, this will shorten the draw length, he has to increase the draw length and then adjust the draw stop. Depending on the cam's draw force curve this may decrease draw weight.

He made the adjustments, and posted his results, I was just trying to tell him how to get the bow back up to poundage based on what he had done. Your test bow is different than his bow, obviously, as the results were different.

I'm not saying I'm always right, but calling me some internet tuning no nothing is a personal affront. I have been tuning, coaching and shooting for 25 years. I'm not a know nothing idiot.

Having said all that, I agree with what you said about the performance gains not being worth the modification. But if Dry Bones wants to learn that for himself I will help him any way I can.
You might need to read my response better.
If he has a 28 inch draw, I told him to leave the DS at that setting.
I told him to install,(or adjust), the DL MODULE, 1/2 inch longer.
At this point, he will still achieve peak weight, but have a higher holding weight.
At this setting, he should get the benefit of the power force curve of the longer DL setting, and same DL, but with a higher holding weight.
I've tested this for years.
You and others are constantly referring to studies and "tests" done by others, and claiming that knowledge.
Test the questions asked.
I'm no rookie myself.
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Old 02-14-2018, 08:17 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocky View Post
T



At what point in this conversation/ question, have you missed this info?
Rat is wrong about not acquiring peak weight.
I've been doing this type of modification for several years, and ultimately, most shooters simply revert to factory settings for hold.
5 fps is not worth the higher holding weight.
These techno/internet/AT/graphs and chart guys need to actually TEST the questions asked before responding with a "others on different forums agree" answers.
I literally took a bow off the shelf, and adjusted as you asked, and posted the results.
I understand that I didn't test wit EHFOC arrows, as these results might be different.
Rocky. That chart I posted was a draw curve I did testing efficiency of my m5. I drew the spot asking the op Is this what your talking about. It was for information only. Now I tested what the op is asking but not to the extream he is wanting. I only did it to shorten the draw a little. I did not care for it nor did it improve anything for me.

So I confused as what your getting at.

Thank you
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Old 02-14-2018, 08:26 PM   #28
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Rocky. That chart I posted was a draw curve I did testing efficiency of my m5. I drew the spot asking the op Is this what your talking about. It was for information only. Now I tested what the op is asking but not to the extream he is wanting. I only did it to shorten the draw a little. I did not care for it nor did it improve anything for me.

So I confused as what your getting at.

Thank you
It can't be confusing unless you don't understand DL.
Set the DRAW-STOP at 28'
Set the DL module at 28.5"
Draw the bow.
Draw length will be 28" but let-off will be lower.
Holding weight will be higher.
You will gain from the longer power force curve of the longer DL, but still have a 28" DL.
Arrow speed will benefit from the longer power force curve.
Once a bow peaks on a DL, and starts into let-off, poundage has been achieved. doesn't matter if let-off is 20 percent, or 80 percent.
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Old 02-14-2018, 08:30 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Rat View Post
Oooookay...

Dry Bones can't simply just move the draw stop, this will shorten the draw length, he has to increase the draw length and then adjust the draw stop. Depending on the cam's draw force curve this may decrease draw weight.

He made the adjustments, and posted his results, I was just trying to tell him how to get the bow back up to poundage based on what he had done. Your test bow is different than his bow, obviously, as the results were different.

I'm not saying I'm always right, but calling me some internet tuning no nothing is a personal affront. I have been tuning, coaching and shooting for 25 years. I'm not a know nothing idiot.

Having said all that, I agree with what you said about the performance gains not being worth the modification. But if Dry Bones wants to learn that for himself I will help him any way I can.
I simply said you were wrong about the bow not achieving peak weight adjusting as I suggested.
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Old 02-14-2018, 08:31 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocky View Post
It can't be confusing unless you don't understand DL.
Set the DRAW-STOP at 28'
Set the DL module at 28.5"
Draw the bow.
Draw length will be 28" but let-off will be lower.
Holding weight will be higher.
You will gain from the longer power force curve of the longer DL, but still have a 28" DL.
Arrow speed will benefit from the longer power force curve.
Once a bow peaks on a DL, and starts into let-off, poundage has been achieved. doesn't matter if let-off is 20 percent, or 80 percent.
If I remember right this was a big deal a few years ago. Donít remember which bow. But I think they where doing to change feel. For me I didnít care for it.
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Old 02-14-2018, 08:39 PM   #31
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If I remember right this was a big deal a few years ago. Donít remember which bow. But I think they where doing to change feel. For me I didnít care for it.
As I said in my previous post.
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Old 02-16-2018, 07:57 PM   #32
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Just curious, did any body other than myself test this?
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