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    #46
    Unfortunately "that is the rule" is the only true answer, i didn't right them and have no power to change them.

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      #47
      Originally posted by RJH1 View Post
      As for the reasoning of the rules, you said you were there, so I reckon you know
      I didn't mean I was at the ASA meeting where the rule was adopted.

      I meant I was around (long ago), and witnessed it when folks started throwing a fit over, and making arbitrary rules over non accessorized aiming styles.

      ASA simply adopted that old rule as an attempt to appease the traditional crowd who do not attend their competitions. Maybe they will come shoot now?

      Nothing changed Brother, except there's a new class.

      The traditional class/shooters will still have to compete with those "good shooters" shooting metal riser target bows (within the equipment rules) who don't want to go to the barebow class.

      Rick

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        #48
        That was the whole reason for this post, to let people know that there is a place where people who like to string walk, had another place that they could shoot. It was not really meant to be a huge rules/ what is right, wrong, or how it should be post. But, the internet, so..... HAHA

        Comment


          #49
          Let me give a scenario, and ask a question.

          Scenario:
          You and I are twin brothers, from a poor family.
          You and I love archery and bowhunting.
          We/Our Family can only afford one bow, and set of arrows for us to shoot with, but we happily share that bow, and those arrows, and have fun doing it.

          BUT, your aiming style makes you a better shot than me.
          I don't care, I love my twin brother, and love to shoot with him.
          I'm gonna get better, and beat him some day.

          We both work hard, save our money, and start going to a few 3D competitions when we can, BUT we are still having to share that same bow, and set of arrows.

          ``````````````````
          Question:
          Give me a good/reasonable answer as to:
          Why should we have to be separated into different classes just because we aim different, even though it's the exact same bow & arrows?

          Rick

          Comment


            #50
            Ok, I want to preface this by saying that I have no dog in this fight and just started this thread to inform some people of options.

            Here is my take on stringwalking vs not in you scenario:

            As an organization you have to draw a line somewhere, many drew it at stringwalking, so the question is why there? The simple answer is because when allowed, it has a definite advantage over other non sighted forms, to say otherwise would be a lie. You only have to look at classes that allow it, I would bet that statistically 0 of the top shooters in a bare bow class gap or shoot instinctive and the same would hold true in any other non sighted classes that allowed stringwalking. So by allowing it you effectively require it if someone wants to shoot for the win

            So, since bare bow was already around the powers that be probably wanted to allow people that shot single string bows that didn't want to stringwalk a place to compete in equal footing.

            So evev if the brothers were using the same one could have a big advantage over the other.

            So now answer my questions

            1 do you honesty believe that for most people in a target shooting stringwalking is not an advantage?

            2 if equipment is as big a deal as you think then why was the highest score posted at vanderpool in 2017 shot with a selfbow?

            3also on the equipment front, why should an organization have to adjust their rules to to fit a guy who wants to shoot a 60 # bow and then gripe, cause it ain't fair, when he could buy a bow that fits for not a lot of money?

            4 And lastly what is the likely good that you will shoot in either the trad class or the bare bow class?

            I can't post on leatherwall right now so feel free to copy and past this response over there for me, if you like

            Comment


              #51
              Originally posted by RJH1 View Post
              So now answer my questions

              1 do you honesty believe that for most people in a target shooting stringwalking is not an advantage?

              Answer:
              No.

              Target shooting is all about competition.
              If you, me, or anyone else learns & utilizes a better method to shoot the "exact same equipment" as everyone else in a class, then more power to them for their effort, and hard work.

              Restrictions outside of equipment are only dumbing down that competition, so it then begs to the question - Is it still a competition?

              Any method can be perfected, and those who perfect their method/methods (whatever they may be) will usually be the best shots.

              There are many shots on any given 3D course where one method will be an advantage over another. That advantage will not be the same for every method on every shot, so to be truly competitive you need to learn to be versatile.


              2 if equipment is as big a deal as you think then why was the highest score posted at vanderpool in 2017 shot with a selfbow?

              Answer:
              Most likely, he has perfected his method/methods, but it's highly unlikely he would have scored as well against a fully tricked out barebow shooter who has also perfected their method, even if the barebow shower wasn't string walking.


              3 also on the equipment front, why should an organization have to adjust their rules to to fit a guy who wants to shoot a 60 # bow and then gripe, cause it ain't fair, when he could buy a bow that fits for not a lot of money?

              Answer:
              Starting with a question - Why are you trying to make this personal?
              I'm not.

              I'm not gripping. I'm just asking questions.

              I've already stated why I use my "hunting bow" to compete with, and it's no different than the equipment you use.

              As far as the draw weight thing is concerned - while I have made comments about those who are shooting heavier draw weights playing a different game, I've never gripped about it, done quite well shooting heavy against lighter in competition, and I am definitely not skittish about doing it again.


              4 And lastly what is the likely good that you will shoot in either the trad class or the bare bow class?

              Answer:
              And again, you are taking a personal level.
              I don't understand why? But, I'll play along.

              The likelihood of that is very strong, considering the fact, that the "only things" keeping me from competing in the ASA, and "several other" venues have been strictly due to my health, and financial situations for the past few years.

              I still have a very strong desire, and when/if I get back on my feet in both categories (I'm getting there) you'll be seeing me again.


              You: I can't post on leatherwall right now so feel free to copy and past this response over there for me, if you like.

              Naa, but you can copy & paste this there in it's entirety when you are able to post there again.
              Rick

              Comment


                #52
                Originally posted by RickBarbee View Post
                Let me give a scenario, and ask a question.

                Scenario:
                You and I are twin brothers, from a poor family.
                You and I love archery and bowhunting.
                We/Our Family can only afford one bow, and set of arrows for us to shoot with, but we happily share that bow, and those arrows, and have fun doing it.

                BUT, your aiming style makes you a better shot than me.
                I don't care, I love my twin brother, and love to shoot with him.
                I'm gonna get better, and beat him some day.

                We both work hard, save our money, and start going to a few 3D competitions when we can, BUT we are still having to share that same bow, and set of arrows.

                ``````````````````
                Question:
                Give me a good/reasonable answer as to:
                Why should we have to be separated into different classes just because we aim different, even though it's the exact same bow & arrows?

                Rick
                You do realize that being economically limited limits people to a whole lot worse than that right?

                Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

                Comment


                  #53
                  [QUOTE=RJH1;13490643]

                  Here is my take on stringwalking vs not in you scenario:

                  As an organization you have to draw a line somewhere, many drew it at stringwalking, so the question is why there? The simple answer is because when allowed, it has a definite advantage.

                  1 do you honesty believe that for most people in a target shooting stringwalking is not an advantage?


                  Exactly.

                  Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Originally posted by DRT View Post
                    You do realize that being economically limited limits people to a whole lot worse than that right?

                    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
                    LOL Gary, of course I do.

                    Still, it makes a good point for those who want to pay attention to it.

                    Rick

                    Comment


                      #55
                      First, thanks, RJH for posting the rule-change info.

                      Second, a question: am I correct in understanding that the Barebow class allowing stringwalking by traditional shooters would have un-sighted compounds in the same class? IF that's the case, then the footing would be far from equal. Any perceived advantage from the sighting method of stringwalking would be drastically overshadowed by the compound advantages of speed and let-off.

                      Third, an observation: the difference between instinctive aiming and stringwalking (and you might as well throw in facewalking) is that adjustments for elevation are made with the bowhand and a subconscious sight picture for instinctive, while adjustments are made at the nock end of the arrow, keeping the tip of the arrow on the target consciously for stringwalking and facewalking. (We'll just leave gap shooting out of the discussion because any regulation of it is unenforceable -- who's to say where a person is looking so long as the fingers and anchors remain constant.)

                      This use of stringwalking and facewalking has been described as a "mechanically adjustable sighting mechanism" (because the arrow itself is the adjustable sighting mechanism) by some. Many feel it gives shooters an advantage over instinctive aimers. If we accept this and seek competitive "fairness", the solution would seem to be to have a category of "traditional" equipment allowing "unlimited" human aiming methods. In the real world, this would be called hunting.

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Yes I know you do bud but my point is it's the brothers choice whether to compete or not and in any organization it's normal to adjust to the higher percentage of members/participants to build your guidelines around.

                        The majority of non string crawlers believe it to be a "mechanical method of aiming" and an advantage.

                        Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Rick, none of it was personal, sorry if it sounded that way.

                          I have a hard time believing that you don't believe string walking is an advantage, if not why do all the top bare bow shooters do it? Kinda like why do all their bows look similar, cause there is an equipment advantage there too, and yes I know equipment matters, just like I know sighting style matters.
                          And I think if you looked at it objectively you would too.

                          Tradtiger, originally I thought it was going to be a wheel bow class too, but it is not. It will apparently be single string only, sorry for the confusion
                          Last edited by RJH1; 07-17-2018, 11:16 AM.

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Originally posted by RJH1 View Post
                            Rick, none of it was personal, sorry if it sounded that way.

                            I have a hard time believing that you don't believe string walking is an advantage, if not why do all the top bare bow shooters do it? Kinda like why do all their bows look similar, cause there is an equipment advantage there too, and yes I know equipment matters, just like I know sighting style matters.
                            And I think if you looked at it objectively you would too.

                            Tradtiger, originally I thought it was going to be a wheel bow class too, but it is not. It will apparently be single string only, sorry for the confusion
                            Okay, then. Thanks.

                            Still an interesting discussion of aiming methods. I can see advantages and disadvantages within all styles, really -- especially when applied to hunting situations.

                            I know that -- at least a couple of years ago when their Mid America shoot was in Austin -- IBO had a "Traditional Hunter" division, and the main distinction I recall about it was that you had to use arrows that weighed at least 10 grains per pound of the bow's drawweight. (Might have needed to be wood or aluminum, as well. Not sure on that.)

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Jerome, just some food for thought.

                              Do you know what riser mapping is?

                              It is almost exactly like having a fixed pin for different distance's.

                              You use spots you learn to recognize on your riser, for the different distances.
                              No marks, nothing added, just spots on the normal natural riser. Those spots mean nothing to anyone else, but for you they are precision spots you use to get spot on for your distance, and you use/line up the arrow for your windage.

                              (Fancy wood risers with lots of grain, and pretty belly overlays lend themselves to being one of the most conducive to use for this.)

                              Sure, you are having to triangulate two different points, but it works, and for those who have perfected it, it works just as well as string walking, and almost as well for some as actually using an added on sight accessory.

                              Now, I have known, and know of folks who shoot the all traditional shoots/classes, and they use the riser mapping method to aim & shoot. I guarantee you, and others shooting the ASA Trad class have, and often do shoot against those using this method, and chances are most of them are among the top shooters.

                              How would you go about banning that, and governing it to keep it out of what is supposed be an all instinctive aiming method class?

                              Answer: You can't.

                              I'll admit it is one of several methods I use to aim, and I'll also freely admit I will use it in any competition without remorse.

                              Like I said sometime earlier, I don't mind gap shooting, and you'll never be able to tell if I am pure gap shooting, riser mapping, or shooting instinctive from one shot to the next.

                              Versatility is the name of the game, and whether they will admit it or not, there are many out there who use said versatility, and you probably know a few of them.

                              Heck, I even know a guy who shoots longbow who uses the knuckles on his bow hand as his sights for different distances, and his arrow only to line up his windage. He spent a lot of time (A Lot Of Time) learning that method, and perfecting it. Perfect it he did, and he used it to beat the socks off most the guys he shot against, but he never publically admitted to shooting any other way cept instinctive.

                              Rick

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                                #60
                                In asa "riser mapping " is illegal and in tbot , it is at least strongly alluded to being illegal. So I guess if people are comfortable with cheating, that is just who they are. And just cause I can't catch them, don't mean they are not cheaters. Kinda like people using their binos as range finders, cheaters gonna cheat....

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