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    #16
    Maybe offer it as an option. I wouldn't pay extra for it. If I buy a custom built gun and it doesn't group it's going back.

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      #17
      Originally posted by bowpro12 View Post
      6 Creedmoor or Dasher?
      6 Creed.

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        #18
        If the rifle is complete and on the wall for sale than sure great selling feature. Is the customer capable of mounting a quality scope choosing the correct ammo and executing the shot? the customer that is knowledgeable about what they want case, twist already know what bullet they are going to shoot I doubt they want your target. Defiantly have it priced as a option. Soo many variables my smith uses a 42x benchrest scope a SEB rest his bench is inside his shop and rock solid to do testing. Am I ever going to repeat his group with a hunting scope and bipod.

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          #19
          If I was about to buy an APR and had the choice, I would opt to NOT pay for the additional service.

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            #20
            Thanks for the feedback gentlemen, please keep it coming. Most of your opinions seem to mirror my own at this point. Load development targets mean everything, factory ammo...not so much.

            Jake brought up a really good point that I failed to mention when listing reasons we are not doing it currently. Some rounds are just not commercially available in quality or variety suitable for meeting any kind of guarantee. No matter how well built a rifle is, you can bet it will not shoot ALL factory ammo into tight little clusters. Every barrel is an individual and likes what it likes. This is a problem when limited or low quality ammo choices are all thats available for a particular chambering.

            I'll take this a step further, and illustrate another situation that has some bearing on this. Even the "good" factory ammo is inconsistent enough to skew the results when attempting to judge a rifle's potential based on a test target. I built a fleet of demo guns last year to take to range days, press events, etc. I chambered them all in 6.5 Creed simply because of ammo quality and availability. I now have 3 different partial cases of 140 ELD sitting in my office from 3 different lots over the past year. One case averages .2-.3 in all the rifles, one averages .4-.5 and one struggles to maintain .75. A test target with any one of these rifles would simply be a test target for Hornady and their lot of ammo that was shot, as the .75 target would not show anything about the rifles capabilities in my mind.

            Thanks,
            Robert
            aprifles.com

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              #21
              Test target I do not see the value.

              Test firing I do. I like to see a piece of fired brass. It shows that the rifle is safe to operate, will go bang and that the chamber is polished.

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                #22
                I could go either way on this but I'd lean towards providing the target. I'm looking at it as strictly a business decision. I don't know if the bulk of your business on new rifles is made up of repeat customers or new(er) customers but I'm assuming you have a lot new clients. For them, an included target is a big selling point, imo. I look at a lot of the replies on here and many of them are from guys that know you and have personal experience with your rifles and level of customer service. I agree with them that I would not, personally, need a target from you but I have spent a LOT of time reading about your rifles and seeing people I respect rave about your rifles and customer service. If I just learned about you, though, I would find the combination of an accuracy guarantee AND a target very comforting, especially when spending $2k+ For many people $2k or more for a rifle represents a LOT of money. Putting their mind at ease is a great way to close the deal on a sale. Again, it all depends on your target market and client demographic. If the bulk of your sales are going to regular and accomplished handloaders and long range shooters, a 100yd target with factory ammo may be meaningless. On the other hand, if the majority of your rifle buyers are more traditional hunters and weekend range shooters who shoot factory ammo and consider 400-500yds "long range," then a target showing that a rifle produces .5" (or smaller) cloverleafs at 100yds is a huge selling point!



                I would think that test firing your rifles would be a minimal cost that could easily pay for itself. #1: It would certainly provide another level of quality control. Assuring that the errant fluke rifle doesn't make it into customers' hands. This would cut down on the expense of repair and even further increase customer satisfaction. Case in point- I had a rifle built by a well known and respected gunsmith that, upon arrival, only shot .7 with factory match ammo. Turns out there was a small flaw in the bedding. Once corrected, it shot .3 with same ammo. Point being, mistakes happen and without shooting, some can't be revealed. #2: It would provide you with proof positive evidence that the rifle shot as advertised when it left the shop. I would think that together, these two advantages would pay for the minimal expense. I mean, it wouldn't take long to slap a scope on a rifle, and the 5-7 shots it takes to get near the the bullseye and produce a 3 shot group. You could have a dedicated scope in a unimount that goes on a pic rail - you don't need to worry about any very minimal cant that might be present since you're only shooting 100yds for a group. At most, you're talking 15 minutes and probably $10 (average) in ammo. I would find it kind of surprising that the minimal cost of test firing couldn't be found somewhere in the cost of a $2k+ rifle.

                There are a LOT of great rifle builders out there today for consumers to choose from. I would imagine that the challenge for any builder today would be to differentiate themselves from the competition. I'm not saying test targets are the ultimate deciding factor but if I was looking at 2 great smiths to buy a build a rifle, and one offered a test target and the other didn't, I'd go with the guy including a test target. If I walk into a shop selling rifles off the shelf and they think enough of their rifles to include test targets to prove their claims, I find that more reassuring than just the claim.




                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                  #23
                  Test Targets With New Guns?

                  Originally posted by bphillips View Post
                  I wouldn't want to pay for it unless it included load development honestly.


                  Yep I feel the same. If I was paying to have load development done, then yes that should be part of that service.

                  Since most people that are buying custom guns usually don’t shoot factory Ammo, I don’t see the value of the additional cost.

                  However assuming that you do Test fire the rifle as part of a fire functional Test, I would expect those 2-3 fired cases to be included.

                  Edited to add: if you are offering an accuracy guarantee with your rifle then yes I think a target should be included. It should be discussed with the purchaser what the main purpose of the rifle would be and agree up front on exactly which factory Ammo it is to be tested with.


                  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
                  Last edited by Mike D; 10-12-2017, 10:57 AM.

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by Horitexan View Post
                    I could go either way on this but I'd lean towards providing the target. I'm looking at it as strictly a business decision. I don't know if the bulk of your business on new rifles is made up of repeat customers or new(er) customers but I'm assuming you have a lot new clients. For them, an included target is a big selling point, imo. I look at a lot of the replies on here and many of them are from guys that know you and have personal experience with your rifles and level of customer service. I agree with them that I would not, personally, need a target from you but I have spent a LOT of time reading about your rifles and seeing people I respect rave about your rifles and customer service. If I just learned about you, though, I would find the combination of an accuracy guarantee AND a target very comforting, especially when spending $2k+ For many people $2k or more for a rifle represents a LOT of money. Putting their mind at ease is a great way to close the deal on a sale. Again, it all depends on your target market and client demographic. If the bulk of your sales are going to regular and accomplished handloaders and long range shooters, a 100yd target with factory ammo may be meaningless. On the other hand, if the majority of your rifle buyers are more traditional hunters and weekend range shooters who shoot factory ammo and consider 400-500yds "long range," then a target showing that a rifle produces .5" (or smaller) cloverleafs at 100yds is a huge selling point!



                    I would think that test firing your rifles would be a minimal cost that could easily pay for itself. #1: It would certainly provide another level of quality control. Assuring that the errant fluke rifle doesn't make it into customers' hands. This would cut down on the expense of repair and even further increase customer satisfaction. Case in point- I had a rifle built by a well known and respected gunsmith that, upon arrival, only shot .7 with factory match ammo. Turns out there was a small flaw in the bedding. Once corrected, it shot .3 with same ammo. Point being, mistakes happen and without shooting, some can't be revealed. #2: It would provide you with proof positive evidence that the rifle shot as advertised when it left the shop. I would think that together, these two advantages would pay for the minimal expense. I mean, it wouldn't take long to slap a scope on a rifle, and the 5-7 shots it takes to get near the the bullseye and produce a 3 shot group. You could have a dedicated scope in a unimount that goes on a pic rail - you don't need to worry about any very minimal cant that might be present since you're only shooting 100yds for a group. At most, you're talking 15 minutes and probably $10 (average) in ammo. I would find it kind of surprising that the minimal cost of test firing couldn't be found somewhere in the cost of a $2k+ rifle.

                    There are a LOT of great rifle builders out there today for consumers to choose from. I would imagine that the challenge for any builder today would be to differentiate themselves from the competition. I'm not saying test targets are the ultimate deciding factor but if I was looking at 2 great smiths to buy a build a rifle, and one offered a test target and the other didn't, I'd go with the guy including a test target. If I walk into a shop selling rifles off the shelf and they think enough of their rifles to include test targets to prove their claims, I find that more reassuring than just the claim.




                    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                    Good input, and EXACTLY why we are on the fence when considering this. It does require a trip off-site, and it would be a number of rifles each day vs. a quick trip to test a single unit. All rifles are certainly test fired for safety function multiple times before they leave the shop, but short of our test fire chamber there is not much more that we can test in our current facility.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      I don't see how including a target can hurt your customer satisfaction in any way. I'm the kind of guy that would have to save for a log time to buy one of your rifles and it should would make me a lot less nervous if I had proof it was going to shoot well.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by M16 View Post
                        Maybe offer it as an option. I wouldn't pay extra for it. If I buy a custom built gun and it doesn't group it's going back.


                        I agree with this

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by 1shot View Post
                          I don't see how including a target can hurt your customer satisfaction in any way. I'm the kind of guy that would have to save for a log time to buy one of your rifles and it should would make me a lot less nervous if I had proof it was going to shoot well.


                          Only hurts if the extra costa associated with this drove customers to purchase elsewhere.

                          APR's if your not happy then we aren't happy guarantee should calm any nerves about whether or not your rifle will shoot. If it doesn't they will do what it takes to make sure it does.

                          IMO, provide the service on an as requested basis, using the buyers supplied glass. Charge this customer for mounting the glass and sighting the rifle and give them the sight target.

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                            #28
                            Just thinking out loud here ...

                            The APR rifles speak for themselves. As the custom rifle builder, you guys control the objective data: bedding, threading, chambering, tolerances, run-out, etc... You have no control over the subjective data which directly effects accuracy: factory ammo, bullet seating depth, shooter bench technique, front and rear rest used, weather conditions, etc... As noted above, factory ammo varies from lot to lot. Powder is usually custom blended for each specific cartridge. Regardless of manufacturer, no 2 lots of factory ammo are exactly the same which is why brand X may shooter better than brand Z. Hand loading is on a whole different planet where the shooter can fine tune multiple variables for precision accuracy.

                            Personally, I don't feel the need for a "test target" with my custom rifle build. I know what the rifles are capable of in the hands of a skilled shooter under ideal conditions. Cooper Rifles include a TT and they are impressive. However it helps to know the facts.... 47 yd indoor range using a 36x bench rest scope. Regardless, they still shoot darn good for a custom, production rifle.

                            In closing, any reputable barrel maker or Gun Smith will work with the customer to make sure they are satisfied should the barrel not meet realistic expectations. Carry on gentlemen.
                            Last edited by Cajun Blake; 10-12-2017, 01:25 PM.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              I don't think it's a big deal. Your business seems well established with a great reputation for accuracy. If you back it with a guarantee that your customers know you will honor, good enough.

                              I could see a benefit of it for a new company trying to break into the scene and woo customers from other builders. But, as you mention, an added expense.

                              My boss has bought several Cooper rifles in the past 6 years that I have worked for him. He is always peeing himself about the target they ship with the gun (but that includes load data).

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Why not just offer it as a paid option? Some guys (me) like to buy a bunch of factory ammo and figure out what their gun likes. Ammo, gas, range fees, and time are all "costs" that the customer incurs.

                                Some guys might like to defer those "costs" by having *you* do the work, send them a test target, and maybe even include the partially-filled box of ammo that shot best. Make it optional and everyone wins.

                                How cool would it be today to buy a rifle made in 1917 that came with the manufacturer's test target and half a box of ammo?

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