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    #31
    Originally posted by Livin'2hunt View Post
    As for the term "liberal", I actually respect those like Bernie Sanders who will stand on stage and proclaim their ideology for all to hear. I will nail a the liberal moniker to forehead of a Republican faster than I will a Democrat.

    One example that erupted over dinner was while discussing the true reason for the U.S. Civil War. The engineer/lawyer became so enraged when I told him slavery wasn't the cause of the Civil War, he stood up, threw his napkin on his plate and said, "I cannot believe I am dining with neanderthals. You can't be helped." Then, he stomped out. Prior to that, I was calm and tried to reason with him and cite every source I could recall. He wasn't having it.
    i guess im in need of a history lesson. every teacher or professor ive ever had for history taught that slavery was the root cause for the civil war.





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      #32
      Originally posted by texasnavy05 View Post
      i guess im in need of a history lesson. every teacher or professor ive ever had for history taught that slavery was the root cause for the civil war.





      Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
      That's where the indoctrination part comes in.

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        #33
        Originally posted by Ironman View Post
        That's where the indoctrination part comes in.
        Come on now. Obviously slavery was a massive part of the reason for the war, as was states rights, as was disagreement over many aspects of westward expansion.

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          #34
          Originally posted by Ironman View Post
          That's where the indoctrination part comes in.
          sigh...

          indoctrination implies an effort to stop critical reasoning when learning.

          ive been taught to have a healthy level of criticism. once you cross over that "healthy level" you turn into a conspiracy theorist.

          i have no reason to believe that slavery wasnt the biggest single cause of the civil war. feel free to show me otherwise.



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            #35
            [QUOTE=texasnavy05;12634511]i guess im in need of a history lesson. every teacher or professor ive ever had for history taught that slavery was the root cause for the civil war.


            Not so much. Here is a short write up....

            The war broke out over Secession. Lincoln won the 1860 election with maybe 40% of the vote, and the South said "***? I'm out of here!" Then Lincoln got ****** and sent in the troops. About halfway through the war, he decided that "preserving the union" wasn't a catchy enough reason to have thousands die, so he switched over to the slavery issue.


            The South felt exactly the way democrats would feel if Bush got a third term. They'd probably secede to. The main reason for secession was that the South felt threatened. Lincoln was a radical from a party whose platform called for the destruction of the Southern way of life. In the shoes of a Southerner, they had no choice but to leave. then to further complicate things, they weren't allowed to just leave peacefully.

            Kansas: the reason popular sovereignty failed was because thousands of abolitionists swarmed in to vote. So Missouri sent in their own voters. Soon Kansas was full of people from Missouri and Yankees. You even had a small shooting war taking place there.

            Abolitionists definitely hurt the union. They caused the South to feel threatened, and that increased tension. That tension boiled over in 1861.

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              #36
              Originally posted by texasnavy05 View Post
              sigh...

              indoctrination implies an effort to stop critical reasoning when learning.

              ive been taught to have a healthy level of criticism. once you cross over that "healthy level" you turn into a conspiracy theorist.

              i have no reason to believe that slavery wasnt the biggest single cause of the civil war. feel free to show me otherwise.



              Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
              Having been educated in the public school system, my level of skepticism/criticism is more than "healthy" now that I have learned what was withheld from me. I wont get into a history debate but to answer your question, it was about States Rights to secede from the Union. Among them, the Confederate States believed they had the Right to own slaves and slavery was their discretion. And, yes that sort of negligence is purposeful indoctrination. Just like my kids having never been taught one freakin' thing about 9/11. An event that formed generations of citizens is ignored....much like leaving out factual matters about the Civil War which formed the course of our history as a Nation. It's out there to be found. Just not in public schools.

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                #37
                Originally posted by thorthunder View Post

                The war broke out over Secession.


                The main reason for secession was that the South felt threatened.

                these are your points. i agree with them both. but, why did the south feel threatened? changing their way of life...aka freeing their slaves. in the states' declaration of secession they specifically state that as a reason for leaving. those are legitimate documents.

                so i guess you could say that the cause of the war was secession, but the biggest cause of secession was slavery.


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                  #38
                  Lincoln was not about the abolition of slavery. There's plenty more where that came from...
                  Attached Files

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                    #39
                    the issue of slavery caused secession, and secession caused the war. lincoln may not have declared war on slavery but it was still the root cause for the war.

                    this article articulates my point much more eloquently
                    Why the Civil War was really about slavery and other Civil War myths busted.



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                      #40
                      OK, I was not going to jump in on this but I cant help myself. First a little background. My southern roots go very deep - my mother is from Richmond Va and her people there go back to the 1690's. That side of my family were slave owners from about 1805 until Emancipation. My father's people moved to Texas From North Carolina in 1850 and also owned slaves. There is a long list of my kin that died for the South. This spurred my intense interest in the Civil War from an early age. Well into adulthood I believed the "states rights, not slavery" line I was taught. However as I have become more informed through decades of research I think both are correct depending who you are talking about. The overwhelming majority (almost all) of Confederate soldiers did not own slaves and fought - as one captured rebel said - "because y'all are down here!" Or like most every soldier throughout history, they fought for the men on the left and right of them. It is also hard to believe that your average northerner was willing to give his life to free the slaves. (most of them did not think blacks were equal to whites, but most thought that owning other people was wrong) They were fighting to preserve the Union and once again, for their comrades. So most of the guys doing the actual shooting - on either side - did not give one whit about slavery.

                      However there is absolutely no doubt that the political cause of the war was slavery. EVERY ONE of the southern state's secession documents made it crystal clear that they were leaving the union to preserve the institution of slavery. Alexander Stevens (vice president of the CSA) made it very clear just after the first shots were fired at Fort Sumpter. From his "Cornerstone" speech:
                      " Our new government is founded upon exactly [this] idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."

                      So if you continue to cling to the "states rights" argument, you must admit that the right they were fighting for was the right to own other humans they considered to be inferior.
                      Last edited by jerp; 08-08-2017, 06:53 PM.

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                        #41
                        Money and power. This started in Europe really. The thinking of the time mirrors this thread. Libs trying to grab more of your dollars and the control of middle America. ( Fly over states ) to the coastal states. Two completely different mind sets.
                        Slaves fell into the money part of the equasion. Don't mess with my wallet. The north wanted a piece of every pie. ( sound familiar ) and the south wanted to self govern.
                        We left the union and started the most deadly war in American history.

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                          #42
                          There have been some really good responses with obviously a lot of thought put into some but STILL some of the things liberals believe in and the agendas that they push make Absolutley no sense....
                          Their thought processes and beliefs are getting stranger and more disturbing, and disgusting as the years go by....

                          I truly believe that most of them know right from wrong but choose to take a path less traveled as to be different and to just see how far they can push the common people.... They love attention and the shock value that their agendas create... It's a game to them...

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                            #43
                            Originally posted by ttaxidermy View Post
                            There have been some really good responses with obviously a lot of thought put into some but STILL some of the things liberals believe in and the agendas that they push make Absolutley no sense....
                            Their thought processes and beliefs are getting stranger and more disturbing, and disgusting as the years go by....

                            I truly believe that most of them know right from wrong but choose to take a path less traveled as to be different and to just see how far they can push the common people.... They love attention and the shock value that their agendas create... It's a game to them...
                            A rich friend in Maryland just set up residency in Mexico so she can buy the level of medical care she wants. Retired business owner with tons of money. She is still a Hillary fan even after having to leave America for healthcare. Shaking My Head.......

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                              #44
                              Originally posted by jerp View Post
                              OK, I was not going to jump in on this but I cant help myself. First a little background. My southern roots go very deep - my mother is from Richmond Va and her people there go back to the 1690's. That side of my family were slave owners from about 1805 until Emancipation. My father's people moved to Texas From North Carolina in 1850 and also owned slaves. There is a long list of my kin that died for the South. This spurred my intense interest in the Civil War from an early age. Well into adulthood I believed the "states rights, not slavery" line I was taught. However as I have become more informed through decades of research I think both are correct depending who you are talking about. The overwhelming majority (almost all) of Confederate soldiers did not own slaves and fought - as one captured rebel said - "because y'all are down here!" Or like most every soldier throughout history, they fought for the men on the left and right of them. It is also hard to believe that your average northerner was willing to give his life to free the slaves. (most of them did not think blacks were equal to whites, but most thought that owning other people was wrong) They were fighting to preserve the Union and once again, for their comrades. So most of the guys doing the actual shooting - on either side - did not give one whit about slavery.

                              However there is absolutely no doubt that the political cause of the war was slavery. EVERY ONE of the southern state's secession documents made it crystal clear that they were leaving the union to preserve the institution of slavery. Alexander Stevens (vice president of the CSA) made it very clear just after the first shots were fired at Fort Sumpter. From his "Cornerstone" speech:
                              " Our new government is founded upon exactly [this] idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."

                              So if you continue to cling to the "states rights" argument, you must admit that the right they were fighting for was the right to own other humans they considered to be inferior.

                              Again, nicely done Jerp. That is exactly what I was trying to say. 620,000 people died in the War and an underwhelming majority of those fighting and killed never owned a slave. It wasn't about doing so, it was about the Right to do so if one chose to. The Right for the State to make that decision independently of the U.S. Government.

                              It would be no different if the Government of today told Texas we no longer had private property Rights. Most of us will wonder how long it takes to secede and who the first President will be, whether we own property or not.

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                                #45
                                Originally posted by thorthunder View Post
                                A rich friend in Maryland just set up residency in Mexico so she can buy the level of medical care she wants. Retired business owner with tons of money. She is still a Hillary fan even after having to leave America for healthcare. Shaking My Head.......
                                That makes as much sense as my former BIL, the surgeon, singing the praises of Obamacare before its implementation. I explained to him, we are headed down a road where the Gubmint can set the pay scale for his services. His face lost all expression (I guess he never considered that) and then, he said, "Well....I'm still for it. If that's the price I have to pay, I will do it." He no more believed what he was saying than he thought he could flap his arms and fly. I reminded him, if he "didn't selfishly take advantage of so many write-offs, more uninsured people could get health care". At that moment, I think he thought about killing me.

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