is it Genetics or is it food ?

[Saddlehorse]

My best friend raises deer their only food is out of a protein feeder
He had a 1 1/2 year old buck score 225 this past year
Genetics
Protein
Age

[jshouse]

Hey buddy, that was your words.
My deer are as pure Texas as yours, which aren't!!!!

That doesn't make sense

[bukkskin]

That doesn't make sense

Years ago, deer were brought in to Texas by the government to repopulate. These deer were from up North.

[Encinal]

Years ago, deer were brought in to Texas by the government to repopulate. These deer were from up North.

Not into Dimmit County or anywhere close.

[jshouse]

Years ago, deer were brought in to Texas by the government to repopulate. These deer were from up North.

I couldn't find the Ron Burgandy meme.

[Hoss163]

You have to have the genetics to have the potential to grow big deer you can feed deer with bad genetics all you want yes he probably will get bigger then what he would on natural browse but he will not be a giant it’s just like human you can eat right lift weights until you turn blue every day if it’s not in your genes to have 20” arms your not going to have them naturally that is but we are not talking about illegal steroids here are we ? And yes they need to be of age to reach your full potential but with out genetics all you will have is a bunch of 120” 130” mature deer running around that’s just the facts .

[Mex. Bowhunter]

Big Big Deer are Truly just Freaks Of Nature. Meaning they are Not that Common regardless what People Like to Believe Out Side the Pen. By Raising the amount of available Food in an area to Support a Bigger Herd witch allowing More Deer to Survive . Will Allow Well Managed Ranch's To have a Bigger Selections in order to Fine Tune the Surviving Deer Herd Post Culling. So witch one Played the Biggest Role?

[bukkskin]

Big Big Deer are Truly just Freaks Of Nature. Meaning they are Not that Common regardless what People Like to Believe Out Side the Pen. By Raising the amount of available Food in an area to Support a Bigger Herd witch allowing More Deer to Survive . Will Allow Well Managed Ranch's To have a Bigger Selections in order to Fine Tune the Surviving Deer Herd Post Culling. So witch one Played the Biggest Role?

Bo, I thought you were out on a boat, with no cell service?????

Fair point, but if I was gonna feed a herd of wild deer, I would rather start with, say, your Mexico herd instead of these Pipe Creek(hill country)scrubs.
They are genetically superior, do you not agree?

[Mex. Bowhunter]

I Agree They Live in a Area That allows Far Better nutrition Witch Built a Better, Stronger Genetic Trait Visually. Witch one is Superior I Can Not Say Honesty.

My Dad Always Said "I Don't Care if the Deer only Weighs 75lbs as Long as 20lbs is Horns":

I said I was Offshore. Not On The Moon Buddy

[elgato]

These chicken and egg discussions are always fascinating. Of course it takes great genetics , age and nutrition to grow top end deer.To me the bigger question is are you getting the full potential out of the deer you have? I propose the answer is almost always no. I also propose that almost all herds have the potential to grow deer big enough to satisfy most with just age and nutrition.

Working with native home grown deer we are consistently growing 200"+ bucks essentially every year in two different countries using only age and nutrition { No dmp, ttt or any other 'manipulation'} . Maybe we hit the genetic lottery? Maybe our results aren't transferrable to all herds? Or maybe most herds in the country are simply on insufficient nutrition to realize their full genetic potential and have been for a long time! Its curious that here in La. we are growing bucks far larger than not only our neighborhood but the state at large. Why? Whats the difference? I can say with certainty that our deer are on a higher nutritional plane than any other herd in La. I am aware of. And have been for a long time. And of course we let deer mature.

I will agree it takes a little time { generally challenging in a fast food society } for the full impacts of nutrition to be realized but once established the benefits continue to accrue. I will also agree that genetics can be controlled in a pen environment to grow stupendous deer. In that respect the genetic question is unarguable. Another question remains though...can you work with the genetics available to you and grow deer that meet or exceed your expectations? For me the answer to that question is unarguably yes.

[elgato]

To add another data point to this discussion here is another experience I personably saw.

Years back Jackie Brittingham bought a pen raised deer with supposed pedigree genetics. Was a mature deer [ I don't recall exact age ] but while it had unique width was nothing special at all . Very average 8 pt. The previous owner kept the deer as a pet feeding it mostly corn as well as whatever was in the pen where it was raised.

Jackie gave the deer to Dr. Harry Jacobson who at the time ran the Ms. State research pens in Starkville. Dr. Jacobson put the deer on a high protein diet and with the following set of antlers the buck exploded growing well over 200"s of antler . He added almost 100" over his previous best set.

The point is you can have the greatest genetics in the world but without quality nutrition the potential will not be realized.

[bukkskin]

These chicken and egg discussions are always fascinating. Of course it takes great genetics , age and nutrition to grow top end deer.To me the bigger question is are you getting the full potential out of the deer you have? I propose the answer is almost always no. I also propose that almost all herds have the potential to grow deer big enough to satisfy most with just age and nutrition.

Working with native home grown deer we are consistently growing 200"+ bucks essentially every year in two different countries using only age and nutrition { No dmp, ttt or any other 'manipulation'} . Maybe we hit the genetic lottery? Maybe our results aren't transferrable to all herds? Or maybe most herds in the country are simply on insufficient nutrition to realize their full genetic potential and have been for a long time! Its curious that here in La. we are growing bucks far larger than not only our neighborhood but the state at large. Why? Whats the difference? I can say with certainty that our deer are on a higher nutritional plane than any other herd in La. I am aware of. And have been for a long time. And of course we let deer mature.

I will agree it takes a little time { generally challenging in a fast food society } for the full impacts of nutrition to be realized but once established the benefits continue to accrue. I will also agree that genetics can be controlled in a pen environment to grow stupendous deer. In that respect the genetic question is unarguable. Another question remains though...can you work with the genetics available to you and grow deer that meet or exceed your expectations? For me the answer to that question is unarguably yes.

Yes, you definitely got it figured out on your places, well done sir.

Another prime example is my neighbor to the South.
High fenced for years and years. Pellet feeders gallore + all they can eat alfalfa. Ranch stays green, not overgrazed.
I have never seen a deer in there that would go 130". Small bodies, small antlers.
It's disturbing, I shew them away from the fence.

[bgleaton]

I think el gato is 100% correct. Unfortunately, we are in the Texas hill country so we can’t really have spring or summer food plots due to lack of rainfall and poor soil so it’s hard for us to make sure our bucks reach their true genetic potential. We would have to irrigate our food plots to get continuous results and we all know that’s way too much $$$. We feed protein year-round and cottonseed 8 months a year but studies show that they will only eat on average around 25-35% of their diet out of a protein feeder. I know some deer are different and will be a protein hog but deer are browsers and would rather browse than stick their head in a tube and eat protein. I think if you are able to offer a buffet of nutrition with year-round protein and year-round food plots that you will definitely see a major improvement and help a buck reach his true genetic potential.

[Darton]

Darton, nobody in this thread is talking about CWD. Like I said my deer are clean. We were discussing if genetics or food was more important.
Now, you claim that my runt is bigger than the natives because he is 1/16th Northern?
SO, it is Genetics??
That small percentage of Northern blood has very little to do with it. Now the fact that there has been a Big buck breeding big blooded does in the pens for 25 generations has a lot to do with it.

True, but your practices produce and spread it! Here is the point! Take your prized bought and paid for breeder buck and then take your native whitetail buck! They can have the greatest genetics and you can pump all of the protein and any type of steroids in them you want, but without age they will not reach their peak! No matter how much protein you shove in his face or the genetics he or she may have without age it doesn't matter! Shoot your prize at 2 1/2 or shoot him at 5 1/2! Do you think that might change his gross score or your price tag? Age is first period!

[bukkskin]

True, but your practices produce and spread it! Here is the point! Take your prized bought and paid for breeder buck and then take your native whitetail buck! They can have the greatest genetics and you cant pump all of the protein and any type of steroids in them you want, but without age they will not reach their peak! No matter how much protein you shove in his face or the genetics he or she may have without age it doesn't matter! Shoot your prize at 2 1/2 or shoot him at 5 1/2! Do you think that might change his gross score or your price tag? Age is first period!

Huh?
I just posted a pic of a beautiful typical that has not had 1 pellet of protien in 5 1
/2 years. NOTHING!! A little corn and rain soaked coastal hay.
The only thing that deer has going for him IS genetics.
When I drove in there the other day I was scratching my head wondering what the heck he was eating. The place is rocks, cedars and a few oaks.
We don't give any deer steroids unless they are Super sick. That is a myth.
And I agree with you on the age, he has shown his best rack so far at 7 1/2.
Oh, and he will never be shot. He is busy breeding these sorry arrzed hill country does.