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-   -   Draw length when shooting with d loop (https://discussions.texasbowhunter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=570561)

timw 01-03-2016 09:39 PM

Draw length when shooting with d loop
 
Would you set your draw length shorter when shooting with a loop or would you stay with true draw length?

Mac... 01-03-2016 09:41 PM

1/2" to an inch shorter

Daniel75 01-03-2016 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timw (Post 10942743)
Would you set your draw length shorter when shooting with a loop or would you stay with true draw length?

Do you currently shoot without a loop? Fingers?

timw 01-03-2016 10:13 PM

I just got my son a bow from a buddy. It has a loop on it and I just need to make sure I'm doing right for him.
My bow is set up without a loop.

Elite0429 01-04-2016 01:58 AM

usually 1/2" shorter will do the trick

old killer 01-04-2016 09:23 AM

You probably shouldn't change your anchor point. Adjust the draw length to accommodate your anchor.

Rat 01-04-2016 09:49 AM

Keep the draw length the same; draw length never changes!

The anchor point changes. Draw length is measured from the nock to the deepest part of the handle (for the sake of argument we will keep the AMMO and ATA math out of it for now); this measurement should never change. The nock should be positioned directly under the iris of the eye; no matter if you are shooting a release on the string, on a loop or fingers.

When transitioning from fingers to a release the DL stays the same but the anchor changes; from the corner of the mouth to the back of the jaw bone, for example. The DL stays the same.

Same thing when going from shooting a release off the string to shooting from a loop; we move the anchor backwards (maybe behind the ear) or we shorten the release to keep the same anchor point. In both cases the DL stays the same.

Again, Draw Length is measured with the nock under the eye, this should never change, to the deepest part of the grip.

Once a persons DL is known it will not change by much over their lifespan. It may change from bow to bow, because different manufacturers measure differently, but the ACTUAL measurement (on the body) will not change.

DO NOT shorten the draw length to make a loop fit or to keep the anchor point; it is far easier to learn a new anchor point than it is to adjust the whole body to a draw length that is too short.

Maverick351 01-04-2016 09:58 AM

Well said. The d loop has nothing to do with draw length at all. All a d loop changes is where your hand rests at anchor not where the string goes

AJ the TP Guru 01-04-2016 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rat (Post 10943977)
Keep the draw length the same; draw length never changes!

The anchor point changes. Draw length is measured from the nock to the deepest part of the handle (for the sake of argument we will keep the AMMO and ATA math out of it for now); this measurement should never change. The nock should be positioned directly under the iris of the eye; no matter if you are shooting a release on the string, on a loop or fingers.

When transitioning from fingers to a release the DL stays the same but the anchor changes; from the corner of the mouth to the back of the jaw bone, for example. The DL stays the same.

Same thing when going from shooting a release off the string to shooting from a loop; we move the anchor backwards (maybe behind the ear) or we shorten the release to keep the same anchor point. In both cases the DL stays the same.

Again, Draw Length is measured with the nock under the eye, this should never change, to the deepest part of the grip.

Once a persons DL is known it will not change by much over their lifespan. It may change from bow to bow, because different manufacturers measure differently, but the ACTUAL measurement (on the body) will not change.

DO NOT shorten the draw length to make a loop fit or to keep the anchor point; it is far easier to learn a new anchor point than it is to adjust the whole body to a draw length that is too short.

Re: bolded type

I do not know how you come to that conclusion. It is dead wrong!

Not only that, but taking said "advice" can be injurious to the archer's health.

I know whereof I speak, one seriously injured bowshoulder later. (Surgery upcoming.)

Rat 01-04-2016 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ the TP Guru (Post 10944253)
Re: bolded type

I do not know how you come to that conclusion. It is dead wrong!

Not only that, but taking said "advice" can be injurious to the archer's health.

I know whereof I speak, one seriously injured bowshoulder later. (Surgery upcoming.)

So you're saying that loop shooter's should be shooting with a short draw length, so the string doesn't touch the nose, the nock isn't below the eye? It should be out in front of the shooters face?

Not happening, I've set up hundreds, maybe thousands, of bows; the draw length is the draw length (of the bow). The shooter's DL (anchor point)changes with a loop, not the bow's DL.

If you must shorten the DL of the bow when you switch to a loop then you were shooting a DL that was too long to begin with (and is still likely too long)!

ALWAYS get the correct draw length and then use the loop to set your anchor point. This isn't theory, it is tried and true form management.

txdukklr 01-04-2016 01:20 PM

I've far less expertise then this crew but I originally clipped to the string and when I added a loop I saw an immediate increase in accuracy but I did in fact reduce my draw length of the bow.

Candidly depending on the bow I shoot different draw lengths. I love mathews but they are long compared to the hoyts and bowtechs so I shoot a half inch shorter.

Get your DL measured and if possible shoot the bow with different mods or cams on it to find the number you want. I shot 28" Mathews up until I hit the no cam and found I couldn't shoot the bow to save my life. I dropped down to a 27.5 and found that I improved drastically. On a draw board the no cam was more then 28 although it had the 28 module in it.

Rat 01-04-2016 01:42 PM

I will incorporate the replies of the PMs into this post.

When we talk about Draw Length (DL) we are really talking about form. To make matters worse there are different definitions of DL; for this we will use the definition that a bow's DL is measured from the deepest part of the bow's grip to the vee in the nock of the arrow when at full draw. A person's DL is measured from this point to the release arm elbow.

The Perfect DL: This is the bow's DL that is the best possible DL for proper horizontal and vertical alignment as well as a stress free neck/head and a full sight picture. Roughly, this looks like the nock ends just below the eye and the string touches the tip of the nose, or something very close to this.

This DL never changes, the bow is drawn to full draw and this is the alignment that happens, every, single, time.

Now, let' stalk about what happens from the nock rearward to the elbow, this is the big deal. To be in proper form you MUST have a release arm elbow that is perfectly in-line with the arrow or just slightly outside, like a very small degree of outside.

How the release elbow looks is DIRECTLY related to the loop length and the release length.

Anchors, and I'm not talking about our wives, are an essential part of this equation. We set anchors to ensure that we have the perfect release elbow. To hit these anchors every time we adjust both the loop size and/or the release length to hit the anchors perfect so we have a perfect release elbow.

If this distance is too short (from the nock to the elbow) the elbow will be outside of the wedge and will cause, not only shot problems, but likely shoulder damage. If this distance is too long we blow the ability to use the rhomboids in the shot execution and to be consistent.

But we adjust this distance with the size of the loop (thereby hitting our anchors) or by adjusting our release length (again, hitting our anchors). This way the bow's DL (the perfect DL for our posture and sight window) is not altered but we can fine tune the release elbow.

Draw Length can be broken down into three adjustable points:
1) The bow's draw length.
2) The loop size.
3) The length of the release (some releases anyway)

All of these MUST work together for the archer to reach the maximum potential through proper form; there is no silver bullet or magic pill, every shooter must make these adjustments to fit their unique body and shooting style.

So, to answer the OP's question; no, the string loop will not change the perfect (bow's) DL, but it will affect the OVERALL draw length (from the nock back to the shooter's elbow).

Fine tuning the DL is the most overlooked, and important, aspect in archery today, I believe; when you get it right you will shoot better than you ever have.

Watch the video for a definition of "The Wedge".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pCejcb6DAI

Rat 01-04-2016 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txdukklr (Post 10944842)
I've far less expertise then this crew but I originally clipped to the string and when I added a loop I saw an immediate increase in accuracy but I did in fact reduce my draw length of the bow.

This is a good example txdukklr. Did you shorten the DL because of the elbow placement and/or anchors? IOW, did you need to shorten the DL to get your old anchors back?

If so ask yourself this (this is all hypothetical but bear with me) was the DL too long to begin with (most likely) or should I have adjusted my release length to compensate?

I only ask this because I see, and have helped, many shooters with a DL that is too long; it is the number one thing I see incorrect at ranges.

In your case either the DL was too long and it is now correct or, it is now too short and you have had to adapt to shooting with a different sight picture and posture (not that there's any thing wrong with that, see below).

I only point this out because I always hear people say, "Yea, but what about so-and-so world pro who shoots a long draw?" like Reo Wilde for example. The answer I have is this; when you shoot 300-400 arrows a day you can have form that is slightly off. The sheer number of arrows produces a level of muscle memory most of us will never get close to achieving.

But, I have shot against people who lean into the string, shoot corner eyed and all kinds of things I can't do; but it is right for them.

The fact remains though, they don't change their DL, how they shoot is how they shoot, all the time every time.

AJ the TP Guru 01-04-2016 05:21 PM

My DL was always 31", which is what I had my Mathews Drenalin set at in 2008, that being the first bow I'd ever owned on which a D-loop was installed.

I shot it well for about two years, then noticed that my bowshoulder had begun to awaken me in the middle of the night asking for Tylanol. It got so bad that target panic ensued. (For those who have been to my website, this story is old hat, just not the particulars.)

Finally, I had a bowshop owner (Mathews dealer) in Las Vegas look at my form, and he suggested a 1" shortened cam. I said I wasn't doing anything different with form than I'd ever done, shooting compounds since the 70s.

He asked if I'd ever had a D-Loop installed before. I said no, and he said that's why your shoulder is hurting, and why the target panic has shown up.

One 30" cam later, the shoulder stopped hurting. It took another couple of weeks though, to get rid of the target panic.

Edit: the unnecessarily long draw I had for two years ended up forming a calcium deposit on a shoulder tendon. In turn, that meant that I could no longer handle 70#. I'm down to 56# draw weight now, but plan to have arthroscopic surgery in 2016, hoping to get some strength back.

gonehuntin68 01-04-2016 06:45 PM

All I know is that in 30+ years of bow hunting my draw length has stayed the same but my anchor point for my draw hand has changed 2 times. First time was when I went from fingers to a release and second time when I went from clipping on the string to a d-loop. The string has always touched the tip of my nose at full draw.

Rat 01-04-2016 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ the TP Guru (Post 10945864)
My DL was always 31", which is what I had my Mathews Drenalin set at in 2008, that being the first bow I'd ever owned on which a D-loop was installed.

I shot it well for about two years, then noticed that my bowshoulder had begun to awaken me in the middle of the night asking for Tylanol. It got so bad that target panic ensued. (For those who have been to my website, this story is old hat, just not the particulars.)

Finally, I had a bowshop owner (Mathews dealer) in Las Vegas look at my form, and he suggested a 1" shortened cam. I said I wasn't doing anything different with form than I'd ever done, shooting compounds since the 70s.

He asked if I'd ever had a D-Loop installed before. I said no, and he said that's why your shoulder is hurting, and why the target panic has shown up.

One 30" cam later, the shoulder stopped hurting. It took another couple of weeks though, to get rid of the target panic.

Edit: the unnecessarily long draw I had for two years ended up forming a calcium deposit on a shoulder tendon. In turn, that meant that I could no longer handle 70#. I'm down to 56# draw weight now, but plan to have arthroscopic surgery in 2016, hoping to get some strength back.

You could just as easily shortened the release length.

My point on the bow's draw length is this: By changing the bow's draw length you changed how your body (posture) and eye (sight picture) interact with the string. The question remains the same; did you have too long a draw length to begin with or did yo have to adapt to a different posture (head tilt) and sight picture?

If, in fact, 31" is your perfect draw length (in relation to posture and sight picture) for you and, you are now shooting 30", you are shooting too short of a draw length, period.

Of course it is better to be too short than too long. But my point is the same; adding the loop didn't change your draw length it changed the orientation of the elbow (and thereby the shoulder). Instead of addressing the distance from the nock to the elbow, with smaller loop or shortening the release length, you chose to shorten the draw length.

Having said all that, and hearing what you have said, it is more likely you had too long of a draw length to begin with; most people do and it doesn't matter how long they've been shooting. Doing something wrong for 25 years doesn't make it right.

I'm not hackin' on ya AJ, I'm just trying to put out all the information for everyone else that may be reading this and looking for help.

timw 01-04-2016 09:40 PM

Thanks all for info. It is a wealth of knowledge and something that is greatly appreciated. I have learned something new today that I will be able to carry on to others

DoubleGArchery 01-05-2016 06:09 AM

A D Loop does not change your draw length.The bow will draw what ever it is.But,your anchor will change.If your release is too long,it will seem a lot longer.Have a good day and carry on.

Daniel75 01-07-2016 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txdukklr (Post 10944842)
I've far less expertise then this crew but I originally clipped to the string and when I added a loop I saw an immediate increase in accuracy but I did in fact reduce my draw length of the bow.

Candidly depending on the bow I shoot different draw lengths. I love mathews but they are long compared to the hoyts and bowtechs so I shoot a half inch shorter.

Get your DL measured and if possible shoot the bow with different mods or cams on it to find the number you want. I shot 28" Mathews up until I hit the no cam and found I couldn't shoot the bow to save my life. I dropped down to a 27.5 and found that I improved drastically. On a draw board the no cam was more then 28 although it had the 28 module in it.

How much more?

Dusty Britches 01-07-2016 03:02 PM

Or.....

You could use a shorter or smaller release aid, one with a shorter head on it. My DL and anchor stayed the same. I have found that the vast majority of people are shooting with release aids that are way too big, too.

Old Killer (posted above) shoots in Senior Pro and probably has more knowledge than everyone here combined. I would not short change his advice.

snapper tapper 01-19-2016 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rat (Post 10946744)
You could just as easily shortened the release length.

My point on the bow's draw length is this: By changing the bow's draw length you changed how your body (posture) and eye (sight picture) interact with the string. The question remains the same; did you have too long a draw length to begin with or did yo have to adapt to a different posture (head tilt) and sight picture?

If, in fact, 31" is your perfect draw length (in relation to posture and sight picture) for you and, you are now shooting 30", you are shooting too short of a draw length, period.

Of course it is better to be too short than too long. But my point is the same; adding the loop didn't change your draw length it changed the orientation of the elbow (and thereby the shoulder). Instead of addressing the distance from the nock to the elbow, with smaller loop or shortening the release length, you chose to shorten the draw length.

Having said all that, and hearing what you have said, it is more likely you had too long of a draw length to begin with; most people do and it doesn't matter how long they've been shooting. Doing something wrong for 25 years doesn't make it right.

I'm not hackin' on ya AJ, I'm just trying to put out all the information for everyone else that may be reading this and looking for help.

This !

DJM 01-19-2016 06:05 AM

Yep,draw length doesn't change.

DJ

Shane 01-19-2016 07:03 AM

So, if every bow has it's own ideal draw length, does that mean that we should all figure out what that is for our bow and then shoot it that way, whether it matches our body's draw length or not? What if a guy with a measured 28" draw length wants to shoot a bow that has an ideal draw length of 30"? Does he just learn to anchor behind his ear, or what?

rocky 01-19-2016 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shane (Post 10996046)
So, if every bow has it's own ideal draw length, does that mean that we should all figure out what that is for our bow and then shoot it that way, whether it matches our body's draw length or not? What if a guy with a measured 28" draw length wants to shoot a bow that has an ideal draw length of 30"? Does he just learn to anchor behind his ear, or what?

I think you've mis-interpreted something.

bowhuntntxn 01-19-2016 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shane (Post 10996046)
So, if every bow has it's own ideal draw length, does that mean that we should all figure out what that is for our bow and then shoot it that way, whether it matches our body's draw length or not? What if a guy with a measured 28" draw length wants to shoot a bow that has an ideal draw length of 30"? Does he just learn to anchor behind his ear, or what?

The bow is a machine. Nothing more, nothing less. The individual is the one with the ideal draw length, and the machine should be modified to fit, not the other way around.

Somewhat like adjustable mirrors in a vehicle, they can be adapted to a range of users.

The shooters draw length is a number, and through several adjustments on cams, strings, releases and loops, the bow can be set up to match what the individual needs. Too many people don't take the time to find the best set up for themselves, and go with what they are told is best.

Shane 01-19-2016 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocky (Post 10996139)
I think you've mis-interpreted something.

I probably did. It sounded like we shouldn't adjust a bow's draw length. We should, instead, adjust our own anchor point (and draw length) to fit the bow and leave the bow alone.

Rat 01-20-2016 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shane (Post 10996408)
I probably did. It sounded like we shouldn't adjust a bow's draw length. We should, instead, adjust our own anchor point (and draw length) to fit the bow and leave the bow alone.

Your draw length is your draw length, it never changes. The bow's draw could change from bow to bow though.

For example: I have a 2006 Bowtech Tribute has a DL of 28", my CSS that is a 2007 has DL of 28.5. My actual draw length doesn't change, but each manufacturer measures their draw length and cams a little differently.

IOW, from my thumb pad to just under my eye (my draw length) will never change. I have found that when I change the grip on my target bows I usually need to have a different DL than what I had originally. For example: My Mathews is a 28" DL, but when I put the target grip I had to change it to 27.5" because the grip was about a half an inch shallower than the stock grip.

But remember, this is from my thumb pad to under my eye; what happens behind that (with my D-loop and release) doesn't impact my draw length, or it shouldn't anyway.

Another thing to consider is that my ACTUAL draw length is 27.75", So I usually have to shoot a 28" setting on my bow and then twist down my string to hit my perfect draw length. Since I build my own strings it is easy to build the perfect string.

Anchor point is what happens after the perfect draw length is set. Where you want to anchor based on your shooting style, release style and achieving the wedge all happens after the draw length is perfect; and this is done by adjusting the D-loop and the length of the release.

jljjdye 01-26-2016 12:18 PM

Everything Rat has said is spot on with my understanding. Once you get the the bow draw length set for you like Rat stated nock under eye and string to nose if possible. Quick test you could try is to shoot a group of fletched arrows at say 20 yrds. Then shoot 1 bareshaft at the same spot. If the bareshaft hits right then shorten your loop. If it hits left then lengthen your loop. This is showing how your release side elbow is aiming the bareshaft.

txdukklr 01-27-2016 12:08 PM

ok I'm confused by the back and forth but I think I'm following ;)b

I think what I'm suggesting is to add the loop (i have my guy make it as small as is reasonably possible) then shoot your bow.

for me and me only the 28" bow that i was shooting at that time forced me to go to 27.5" or change my then current anchor point. A few bows later I moved back to 28" for a handful of bows and my last two bows I moved back to 27.5.

I think bow makers DL aren't always spot on. I realize my dl is not changing but the same bow when i added the loop I had to go smaller.

Rat 01-27-2016 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txdukklr (Post 11023788)
ok I'm confused by the back and forth but I think I'm following ;)b

I think what I'm suggesting is to add the loop (i have my guy make it as small as is reasonably possible) then shoot your bow.

for me and me only the 28" bow that i was shooting at that time forced me to go to 27.5" or change my then current anchor point. A few bows later I moved back to 28" for a handful of bows and my last two bows I moved back to 27.5.

I think bow makers DL aren't always spot on. I realize my dl is not changing but the same bow when i added the loop I had to go smaller.

You could just as easily have shortened your release to keep the same draw length and anchor.

The real question is: Was the draw length right to begin with? IOW, how the string made contact with your face? If this is right, it should never change; like you said though, bows will have different numbers, but the actual string contact (draw length) doesn't change.

Let's say that your form was perfect and the string was perfect on your face without a D-loop, then you add a D-loop; now your anchor is too far back. The correct thing to do (thinking from a form perspective) is to shorten the release and get the anchor back or just anchor farther back (if you can). You chose to shorten the draw length instead.

IF the draw length was perfect, now you are short drawn, which is better than long drawn, but still not perfect like it was before you made the draw length change.

IF you can still have good form with the shorter draw length (elbow slightly out but still a nice trapezoid) and do it every time, then there is no problem.

If you watch Reo Wilde shoot (No. 3 in the world) he has a weird form, he leans back at full draw; but he does it the same every time and he is a world class competitor.

IOW, the draw length shouldn't change (if it is already perfect), but if you choose to change it, make sure it isn't detrimental to your form and your shooting.

SAVIOUR68 01-27-2016 07:38 PM

IMHO what Rat is stating is correct, I look at draw length being [the front half of the body] the bow arm/grip and shoulder properly set and when drawing the bow string back the string V should preferably not go past the eye socket of the corner of the mouth which allows several facial structures for multiple anchor points as well as good sight from the peep. Archer should be standing up straight, not leaning forward or backwards to reach out for the string.
Know loop length or release head length is/ can be adjusted to bring the draw arm/ elbow and shoulders into proper alignment directly behind the arrow. Its what I call the back half.
Just my $.02 ;)b

rocky 01-28-2016 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by txdukklr (Post 11023788)
ok I'm confused by the back and forth but I think I'm following ;)b

I think what I'm suggesting is to add the loop (i have my guy make it as small as is reasonably possible) then shoot your bow.

for me and me only the 28" bow that i was shooting at that time forced me to go to 27.5" or change my then current anchor point. A few bows later I moved back to 28" for a handful of bows and my last two bows I moved back to 27.5.

I think bow makers DL aren't always spot on. I realize my dl is not changing but the same bow when i added the loop I had to go smaller.

I always measure the bow's actual DL when setting it up.
If everything is in spec, and it is long, (as certain brands almost always are), I can either "crunch" the bow to reduce the DL slightly, (usually can get 1/4"), but it usually increases poundage also, or simply go 1/2" shorter.
Rotating Modular systems are not without issues, but it sure makes DL changes easy.
Going shorter messes with shooter's ego, and is a common issue as to why a lot of them are shooting a too long DL.

Traildust 01-28-2016 10:44 AM

I switched to an adjustable release head with a forward trigger when I started using a loop. Nothing changed at all.


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