Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Arrow penatration problems

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Arrow penatration problems

    I'm going to state my opinion and experiance about this problem

    First I see lots of comments about penitartion problems. I just saw one on another forum where he stated 35 yrs experiance. But he is confused. shot large buck with no penitartion. And he doesn't understane because his k.e is 69. And that's all you need for large animals according to the charts. Oh yes he was also shooting a 2 in cut rage. He was also hunting in the Midwest.

    The market has done a great job saleing us on k.e. The bigger the better.

    But in that example of the guys arrow his momentum was .47.

    Let me just say yes everyone here can kill with a light arrow. And yes as long as you don't hit anything major you will get a passsthru.

    But the whole ideal to hunting is try to get the best shot and the fastest kill possible. A lite arrow will not always do that for you.

    I can tell you I build my arrows to have an .56 momentum at a minimum. I can also tell you I donot always get a passsthru on a large hog with that setup.

    When I'm building arrows. I only work on speed as to keep it above 250 fps. After that I don't care. My goal is to build .56 momentum or better.


    If people would look at that instead of speed. There would be a lot less lost deer do to penetration problems.

    Now all this only works if everything is in tune and arrow is shooting straight.

    Never forget shot placement.

    #2
    I'll also add that increasing arrow weight decreases noise. Some may not realize it, but if you can tell a difference in noise it is likely 10 times worse for a deer. A very quoet bow sounds like a twig breaking, which won't send a deer flying.

    I WAS into speed for the longest time. After missing a deer at 35 yards I started to think of why I missed. The easiest explanation was bow noise. I went from a 360 gr to a 415 gr arrow. Speed went from 312 to 295. I took the same exact 35 yard shot with the slower arrow and connected. Now that may be coincidence, but I can tell you that speed was not a factor of success for my most recent deer.

    Comment


      #3
      So much for the "size doesn't matter" theory.

      Comment


        #4
        Good post newman. That's why I use the term "total arrow performance". What I get/hear a lot is customers focusing soley on one attribute driving penetration. Factors such as how the arrow leaves the bow, mass weight, FOC, momemtum and head type all play a role in terminal performance of an arrow. We are all guilty sometimes of putting a greater weighted average on some of these characteristics instead of looking at the big picture.......................EVERYTHING. We should stay away from "I need and arrow that weighs X" or "I need and FOC of Y".......etc. Do the research or opt out and have it built for you, either way try to find that balance that will increase your odds of taking an animal in successful manner. The marketing ploys these days from the archery industry are nothing short of amazing, they have done the research and they know the buzz words we want to hear.

        Comment


          #5
          Real good post. Everyone is concerned about how fast can it go. Should be, how much energy can it create and disperse into a target.

          Comment


            #6
            Nothing will make up for poor shot placement. If it did no one would shoot less than a 7 mag and never lose a single animal.

            Light and fast kills just as dead as slow and heavy provided the shooter does their part.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by bowhuntntxn View Post
              Nothing will make up for poor shot placement. If it did no one would shoot less than a 7 mag and never lose a single animal.

              Light and fast kills just as dead as slow and heavy provided the shooter does their part.
              Yes your right and that's why I stated shot placement.

              But I see a lot of low penitartion problems. And 95% of them are arrow problems. Just not enough momentum for the animal there hunting. 8 %!is bad tuning and 2 % in just bad shot. Okay I just made up them numbers, but you get the ideal.

              Can a lite arrow kill an elk. All day long. But I would not hung an elk with an arrow I had built for our small white tails.

              I used to build arrows to that certain animal. Now I build an arrow that is an general purpose arrow. And that is at the .56 minimum momentum.

              Comment


                #8
                broadhead design has a huge effect on what you're talking about.I don't care if you're shooting an 80# monster safari with a 700 grain arrow if your little aluminum broadhead curls up on a shoulder it ain't going any further. Short Steel or titanium furel heads with a modest cutting diameter will always perform well.
                my favorite=rocket stealhead 125.
                my arrow s are about 425 grains out of 70# rigs -several different brands, I have gotten pass throughs on a pile of hogs , and I aim for the shoulder/ heart shot

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by cbd10pt View Post
                  broadhead design has a huge effect on what you're talking about.I don't care if you're shooting an 80# monster safari with a 700 grain arrow if your little aluminum broadhead curls up on a shoulder it ain't going any further. Short Steel or titanium furel heads with a modest cutting diameter will always perform well.
                  my favorite=rocket stealhead 125.
                  my arrow s are about 425 grains out of 70# rigs -several different brands, I have gotten pass throughs on a pile of hogs , and I aim for the shoulder/ heart shot
                  Yes the broad head does come in effect. I could write two pages on arrow penetration. My post was about lite arrows. Not what type of broadhead.

                  So since your brought that up lets talk a little about heads. The best head is a thick head around .72 thick. And a two blade. This head will be hard to beat. A long head that's built like a sliver will also be hard to beat for penatration.

                  Now will all broadheads work yes. A lot of heads are a market gimmick. Not that they don't work but it's all about the sale.

                  It's like the new magnus. It's nice and thick but the penetration is hinderd do to it's a short wide head. That is restriction.

                  It's kind of like the head that cuts three circles can't remember what it's call. Will that head kill yes. But it's a gimmick design.

                  The head that has the helical blades. There whole sale point is it helps steer the arrow. What. We spend all our time to make an arrow that is steered by the fletching, and here comes this head. Sales gimmick. Does it kill yes.

                  All this post is my opinion on why people have some penetration problems.
                  I should have added that. A good arrow is not just the shaft. It's tip to knoc. So if you shoot junk heads. It makes no differance how good the arrow is.

                  So I'm thinking we need to interduce a new term. T.A.P. Total arrow performance. This is muddyfuzzy he gets all the glammer for that term.
                  Last edited by enewman; 01-12-2015, 04:01 PM.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Reading my last post. I should have put the magnus head comment above the sales gimmick portion. I do not think the magnus head is a gimmick. That head just will not penetrate as well as others.

                    Also you have to remember. Most of what we shoot you will not be able to tell the differance in the penetration of a thin head vs a wide head. You just have to understand the mechanics behind the design.

                    Same as will a .6 momentum out penetrate an .5 momentum arrow. Everyday and twice on Sunday. Will you see this nope not on what we hunt.

                    The post is just to let people know that when your having penetration problems you need to look at your T.A.P.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I can kill a deer with a rock.....they aint that tough. Shoot em in the right spot, and go pick em up. My 385gr arrow @ 289 fps will total out any deer or hog that I put the pin on.

                      If arrow is flying straight and true with a sharp broadhead, you really cant go wrong WITH a good shot

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Low Fence View Post
                        I can kill a deer with a rock.....they aint that tough. Shoot em in the right spot, and go pick em up. My 385gr arrow @ 289 fps will total out any deer or hog that I put the pin on.

                        If arrow is flying straight and true with a sharp broadhead, you really cant go wrong WITH a good shot
                        I want to add a little perspective to this thread.
                        My wife has a 25 inch draw length, shoots a 42 lb bow, with a 290 grain arrow, 85 grain tip.
                        I do not know the F.O.C., nor do I know the K.E., or the momentum.
                        I think the speed is around 240 fps.



                        She shoots through whitetails in Texas and Kansas, and gets her broadhead through most pigs to 180 lbs.
                        Of course,....... shot placement is usually pretty good.
                        If all this Foc and momentum is your deal, I'm not gonna argue, but at least, give us some real world numbers on animals killed due to all this Ashby stuff, and not just speculation and thoughts.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Good thread. Having shot light, then heavy, I'm staying with heavy and sacrificing trajectory based on the vast difference in blood trails. 650 grains and big COC BH.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by rocky View Post
                            I want to add a little perspective to this thread.
                            My wife has a 25 inch draw length, shoots a 42 lb bow, with a 290 grain arrow, 85 grain tip.
                            I do not know the F.O.C., nor do I know the K.E., or the momentum.
                            I think the speed is around 240 fps.



                            She shoots through whitetails in Texas and Kansas, and gets her broadhead through most pigs to 180 lbs.
                            Of course,....... shot placement is usually pretty good.
                            If all this Foc and momentum is your deal, I'm not gonna argue, but at least, give us some real world numbers on animals killed due to all this Ashby stuff, and not just speculation and thoughts.
                            What numbers do,you want. What I listed on the hogs is real world numbers. Not dr ashby. The .56 momentum up to .63 momentum I'm writing about is all experiance. All on hogs from 125 to 180 lb All with 3/4 to 1 in shields and all shot threw the shoulders. One of the hogs was a even threw the spine.

                            Most everything I post about arrows is first hand. Not what I've read. Yes I have built arrows from dr ashby writings. And I shoot them arrows.

                            Through out all my post one thing I always repeat. This is not the gospel. Lots and lots of animals are killed with lite and fast arrows. That is all I used to shoot my self. I changed when I lost a nice buck with a shoulder hit and no penetration.

                            I would never doubt you rocky, but the hog I shot the other day. If shot in the same place I shot. No way your wife's arrow would have gone threw this hog.

                            Rocky please do not take my comments to you as disrespectful. I'm not on here To do that.

                            These post are do to people posting about bad penetration problems and Im just giving real world numbers and reasons that this could possibly be happening to them.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by rocky View Post
                              I want to add a little perspective to this thread.
                              My wife has a 25 inch draw length, shoots a 42 lb bow, with a 290 grain arrow, 85 grain tip.
                              I do not know the F.O.C., nor do I know the K.E., or the momentum.
                              I think the speed is around 240 fps.



                              She shoots through whitetails in Texas and Kansas, and gets her broadhead through most pigs to 180 lbs.
                              Of course,....... shot placement is usually pretty good.
                              If all this Foc and momentum is your deal, I'm not gonna argue, but at least, give us some real world numbers on animals killed due to all this Ashby stuff, and not just speculation and thoughts.
                              I think the Ashby "stuff" is about as real world as it can get. You simply can not dispute that an arrow with higher FOC makes more use of an equal amount of fletching. Nor would it be advisable to contradict the merit of a high ratio head due to its pronounced mechanical advantage. Likewise that a high FOC arrow makes better uses of an arrow's energy upon impact. These are basic facts driven by the very laws of physics, you know like Newton's law and all that jazz. Those guys shot a tremendous amount of game in that study, it is the most comprehensive body of work in the history of bow hunting concerning terminal projectile performance, that's not really up for debate.

                              The only thing I can tell you is since I have personally been shooting an arrow with some engineering behind it:
                              1) I have recovered 100% of the animals I have attempted a shot on in the last two years (1 whitetail buck, 1 whitetail doe, 1 axis buck and 7 hogs).
                              2) The three deer resulted in a net tracking job of 40 yds.
                              3) I have had pass through on all animals except the whitetail buck, he was shot with a NAP Spitfire (mechanical), all other animals were taken with fixed blade heads.
                              4) my long range accuracy (50+ yds) has increased

                              I think its good stuff, so do growing contingent of folks that are becoming educated on the subject matter. We are talking about stacking the odds in your favor, we all need some help sometimes right? Ever made a bad shot? I know I have....... I always hear all this stuff about shot placement.......its all about shot placement, but last time I checked Levi Morgan isn't a TBH member and I don't shoot for Elite. When everything goes right we can all be lethal on a cape buffalo shooting a 50#, but that's not really the case is it. Everybody wants to shoot a head that looks like someone threw a rake through and animal. You can quote me on this, and I have said it many times on this forum. I don't build arrows for the great shots, I build them for the times when things don't go my way.
                              Last edited by muddyfuzzy; 01-12-2015, 09:22 PM.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X