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Old 04-18-2012, 07:13 PM   #1
Sippy
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Thumbs up Bill passed

Good deal! Question though, what does this do to the ban on lead waterfowl loads? Could they be used again?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1433984.html

Last edited by Sippy; 04-18-2012 at 07:27 PM..
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Old 04-18-2012, 07:14 PM   #2
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didnt know a thing about the bill, i do know lead shot was the bomb.
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Old 04-18-2012, 07:19 PM   #3
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Good question there sip. It doesn't say anything about reversing previous legislation. Just blocking future laws regulating lead. So I'm curious to see.
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Old 04-18-2012, 07:22 PM   #4
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Good question there sip. It doesn't say anything about reversing previous legislation. Just blocking future laws regulating lead. So I'm curious to see.
We would kill more ducks (although maybe not purposefully). Not sure how i would feel about a reversal, but i think i would be against it.
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Old 04-18-2012, 07:26 PM   #5
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This is only passed in the house where it is controlled by Republicans I don't think it has a chance in the Senate. We will see.
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Old 04-18-2012, 07:29 PM   #6
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Good deal. Hope they don't bring back lead shot for waterfowl though, that's just asking for trouble...
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:08 PM   #7
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Cool deal, I like my cheap lead shot. Anybody else notice they had baby polar bears at the bottom to make you feel bad for killing the polar bears in Canada and then bringing them back to the U.S.A.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:10 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by 30-30 View Post
Good deal. Hope they don't bring back lead shot for waterfowl though, that's just asking for trouble...
why? I guess you shoot dove and quail with nontoxic shot?
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:11 PM   #9
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Good deal! Question though, what does this do to the ban on lead waterfowl loads? Could they be used again?

It does absolutely nothing.

Social Studies 101- It takes both houses of Congress and a presidential signature (or sit on his desk for 10 days without a signature if Congress is in session) to pass a law or a 2/3's vote by both houses to override a veto.

The US Congress is in session all year unlike the Texas legislature that is in session only 5 months every other year so they are always passing bills.

When a different party controls each house (like now with the GOP for the House and the Dems for the Senate) then both will likely pass bills that the other house will not even take up for debate, much less try to pass. I think to date, since the Republicans took over the House in 2010, they have sent 35 bills to the Senate that Harry Reid (Democrat head of the Senate) will not even allow to be debated.

So while this bill that passed the House seems great, that is as far as it will go just as the other bills that have passed the House. Even assuming that the Senate could get enough support to pass it, they would need the president to go along with it and that just isn't happening. In the fantastical assumption that it passed both houses, it would never get a 2/3's vote to override a veto.

The House could just as well pass a bill to end all income taxes and while it might pass, that is as far as it would get.

End of lesson.

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Old 04-18-2012, 08:15 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvc184 View Post
It does absolutely nothing.

Social Studies 101- It takes both houses of Congress and a presidential signature (or sit on his desk for 10 days without a signature if Congress is in session) to pass a law or a 2/3's vote by both houses to override a veto.

The US Congress is in session all year unlike the Texas legislature that is in session only 5 months every other year so they are always passing bills.

When a different party controls each house (like now with the GOP for the House and the Dems for the Senate) then both will likely pass bills that the other house will not even take up for debate, much less try to pass. I think to date, since the Republicans took over the House in 2010, they have sent 35 bills to the Senate that Harry Reid (Democrat head of the Senate) will not even allow to be debated.

So while this bill that passed the House seems great, that is as far as it will go just as the other bills that have passed the House. Even assuming that the Senate could get enough support to pass it, they would need the president to go along with it and that just isn't happening. In the fantastical assumption that it passed both houses, it would never get a 2/3's vote to override a veto.

The House could just as well pass a bill to end all income taxes and while it might pass, that is as far as it would get.

End of lesson.

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Old 04-18-2012, 08:15 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvc184 View Post
It does absolutely nothing.

Social Studies 101- It takes both houses of Congress and a presidential signature (or sit on his desk for 10 days without a signature if Congress is in session) to pass a law or a 2/3's vote by both houses to override a veto.

The US Congress is in session all year unlike the Texas legislature that is in session only 5 months every other year so they are always passing bills.

When a different party controls each house (like now with the GOP for the House and the Dems for the Senate) then both will likely pass bills that the other house will not even take up for debate, much less try to pass. I think to date, since the Republicans took over the House in 2010, they have sent 35 bills to the Senate that Harry Reid (Democrat head of the Senate) will not even allow to be debated.

So while this bill that passed the House seems great, that is as far as it will go just as the other bills that have passed the House. Even assuming that the Senate could get enough support to pass it, they would need the president to go along with it and that just isn't happening. In the fantastical assumption that it passed both houses, it would never get a 2/3's vote to override a veto.

The House could just as well pass a bill to end all income taxes and while it might pass, that is as far as it would get.

End of lesson.

I am completely educated on how the system works. I am referring to if the bill gets completely passed.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:16 PM   #12
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why? I guess you shoot dove and quail with nontoxic shot?
Completely different. Duck pick up small rocks when they feed (including lead shot), which causes them to get lead poisoning and die.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:26 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Sippy View Post
Completely different. Duck pick up small rocks when they feed (including lead shot), which causes them to get lead poisoning and die.
Most birds eat gravel to some extent, if I'm not mistaken.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:28 PM   #14
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not different dove pick up small rocks(including lead) also.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:29 PM   #15
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Cant see this passing at all.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:30 PM   #16
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Correct, but look at where most ducks concentrate. Water. And where do duck hunters hunt? Water. There is a large concentration of shot in one area where the majority of duck are feeding. Whereas other birds and bird hunters do not concentrate in one single area, spreading out the shot and minimizing the effects.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:35 PM   #17
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I think they don't want lots of lead shot at the bottom of the lakes where everybody hunts. Just my opinion.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:35 PM   #18
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Ill put it this way as well. Bird a is a duck. Bird b is a dove.

Bird A goes from: Body of water in canada
To:Body of water in midwest
To:Body of water in South
To:Body of water in mexico.

Bird A is going from small area to small area. Hunters are concentrating on most of these areas thus producing a large amount of (lead) shot in the feeding areas.

Bird B however goes from field to field to pond. A large amount of these fields are not hunted, and the hunters are spread over more area instead of being highly concentrated on isolated spots where the majority of the birds feed (like bird a).

Am i making sense?
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:36 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Sippy View Post
Correct, but look at where most ducks concentrate. Water. And where do duck hunters hunt? Water. There is a large concentration of shot in one area where the majority of duck are feeding. Whereas other birds and bird hunters do not concentrate in one single area, spreading out the shot and minimizing the effects.
alot of dove hunting is done over water. which the ducks still can pick up the lead. dove hunting over crops, ducks and geese use the same fields to feed. I don't care if lead shot is brought back for waterfowl or not.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:40 PM   #20
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Quote:
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Most birds eat gravel to some extent, if I'm not mistaken.
not at the bottom of the shallows...there is no doubt that the banning of lead helped bring numbers back.

crazy thing is I can hunt over a tank for ww / doves with no problem, but if a duck goes down, I break the law.

The cali-condor was also one of the main reasons they banned lead in centerfire rigs out there...the birds would eat a wounded critter and the lead would block up their system. I'm guessing barnes owns the market on the left coast.

I'm for the measure in the grand scheme, but understand 'why' lead is not liked.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:40 PM   #21
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I see duck and geese eating in fields when not 2-3 months earlier we were hunting doves in it. This is all bogus crapola and nothing but polotics rather than sound science.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:47 PM   #22
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I just wonder how much money barnes (and anybody else who's business is primarily based on lead alternatives) contributed to the original no lead lobby effort.

Sent from my Samsung Captivate using Tapatalk.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:47 PM   #23
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Where's my popcorn when I need it?
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:50 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sippy View Post
I am completely educated on how the system works. I am referring to if the bill gets completely passed.
Well, when you asked the four words "what does this do", I will retract most of my other post and simply stick with my first four words......

"It does absolutely nothing."

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Old 04-18-2012, 08:51 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvc184 View Post
Well, when you asked the four words "what does this do", I will retract most of my other post and simply stick with my first four words......

"It does absolutely nothing."

I was referring to the bill itself (if passed), and what exactly it would do. Sorry if i confused you
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:57 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sippy View Post
Completely different. Duck pick up small rocks when they feed (including lead shot), which causes them to get lead poisoning and die.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch View Post
Most birds eat gravel to some extent, if I'm not mistaken.
Umm.. yeah... they do...

They use the rocks, etc in their gizzard to help crush up the seed/feed they eat...

And FTR, a Coot has a gizzard as big as your fist.
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:13 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by iamntxhunter View Post
This is only passed in the house where it is controlled by Republicans I don't think it has a chance in the Senate. We will see.
this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:27 PM   #28
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Is there a shortage of ducks?
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:38 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sippy View Post
Am i making sense?
None what so ever...
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:40 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BvR View Post
why? I guess you shoot dove and quail with nontoxic shot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ouch View Post
Most birds eat gravel to some extent, if I'm not mistaken.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BvR View Post
not different dove pick up small rocks(including lead) also.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BvR View Post
alot of dove hunting is done over water. which the ducks still can pick up the lead. dove hunting over crops, ducks and geese use the same fields to feed. I don't care if lead shot is brought back for waterfowl or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamntxhunter View Post
I see duck and geese eating in fields when not 2-3 months earlier we were hunting doves in it. This is all bogus crapola and nothing but polotics rather than sound science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tubby View Post
Umm.. yeah... they do...

They use the rocks, etc in their gizzard to help crush up the seed/feed they eat...

And FTR, a Coot has a gizzard as big as your fist.

These guys are making sense... Logical factual Sense.
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:46 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sippy View Post
Ill put it this way as well. Bird a is a duck. Bird b is a dove.

Bird A goes from: Body of water in canada
To:Body of water in midwest
To:Body of water in South
To:Body of water in mexico.

Bird A is going from small area to small area. Hunters are concentrating on most of these areas thus producing a large amount of (lead) shot in the feeding areas.

Bird B however goes from field to field to pond. A large amount of these fields are not hunted, and the hunters are spread over more area instead of being highly concentrated on isolated spots where the majority of the birds feed (like bird a).

Am i making sense?
not really because the dove hunters normally hit the same fields every year. So there would still be a high concentratiuon of lead shot sitting in some type of field
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:48 PM   #32
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Absolutely NO good science backing up the lead ban. None. It's the same deal as DDT.

This legislation has no chance in the Senate...especially not in an election year. But good on the GOP for at least doing SOMETHING.
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:49 PM   #33
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Absolutely NO good science backing up the lead ban. None. It's the same deal as DDT.

This legislation has no chance in the Senate...especially not in an election year. But good on the GOP for at least doing SOMETHING.
Dang I thought I was the only one who thought this way
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:49 PM   #34
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Is there a shortage of ducks?
Only when I pull the trigger .

Numbers are not what they used to be. But better than they were.

Hi Jeff!
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Old 04-18-2012, 09:52 PM   #35
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As far as i know, lead is a naturally occurring element in the wild. that means heavy metalsnare present in EVERYTHING we eat, drink, touch, taste, smell, whatever, so saying a single bird eating a pellet destroys the environment for everyone who ever comes in contact with that incident is ludicrous. The actual amount, unless digested by the shooter when he fails to remove it from the game, isnt enough to do damage.


(queue the links that show lead toxicity)
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:06 PM   #36
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Hi Mikey!!

So there are less now than when lead shot was being used??
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:15 PM   #37
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Hi Mikey!!

So there are less now than when lead shot was being used??
This is from DU.

Quote:
The 2011 breeding population estimate for the 10 most common duck species in the traditional survey area was 45.6 million birds—an 11 percent increase from the previous year's estimate and the largest total estimate since surveys began in 1955. Mallards had a breeding population of 9.2 million birds—up 9 percent from last year and the largest estimate since 2000. In more good news for waterfowl hunters, blue-winged teal, redheads, and shovelers reached record highs this spring. In addition, pintails had a breeding population of 4.4 million birds, a 26 percent increase from the previous year and the first time this population has surpassed 4 million birds since 1980. Populations of all other duck species in the traditional survey area were statistically similar to last year. Only two species—scaup and American wigeon—were below their long-term averages.
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:19 PM   #38
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You are like a redneck mhundt
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:20 PM   #39
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I can't tell you how many ducks I have seen hit by steel shot and either get up and fly off or keep flying and perhaps swim off and not be recovered because of the low energy delivery of steel. I have seen a Blue bill get knocked down swim 50 yds fly off land 400 yds out in the bay and slowly die... With lead they DIE!
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:20 PM   #40
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What Jaspro posted Jeff . I was make-n a oxymoron in the second line above for ya, just to confuse you. I see it worked

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Old 04-18-2012, 10:21 PM   #41
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Can someone dumb this down for me please
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:22 PM   #42
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I can't tell you how many ducks I have seen hit by steel shot and either get up and fly off or keep flying and perhaps swim off and not be recovered because of the low energy delivery of steel. I have seen a Blue bill get knocked down swim 50 yds fly off land 400 yds out in the bay and slowly die... With lead they DIE!
Agree 100%

Give me some #4 lead and I'm a happy duck killing machine!!!
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:24 PM   #43
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Can someone dumb this down for me please
lead bullets will continue to be legal means (rifle) while I believe existing laws regarding use of lead on water fowl will remain illegal.
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:25 PM   #44
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Well quail used to be more plentiful and they were/are hunted with lead and there is less today than ever before. I just don't see it. I think ducks have less breading ground and more predation than before but there are many theories about the decline. It is somewhat cyclical due to rains and floods, food sources etc. much like anything else in nature.

By the way how do you really count ducks with any real accuracy. Not sure you can.
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:28 PM   #45
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lead bullets will continue to be legal means (rifle) while I believe existing laws regarding use of lead on water fowl will remain illegal.
Lead for upland game birds and small game animals will still be legal as well. Just not migratory birds.
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Old 04-18-2012, 10:34 PM   #46
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I sure hope Sippy's vehicle wasn't moving while he was shooting out of it!

Just giving you a hard time.

Duck numbers are down to loss of nesting grounds. Has nothing to do with lead shot. That is gov't hocus pocus, lobbyists, etc, blah blah blah.
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Old 04-18-2012, 11:01 PM   #47
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Hi guys!


And yes the vehicle is still
And im looking across a field that normally has coyotes in it
On a road through the middle of my lease



Anyways, I thought my info was correct based on a research paper I read. If you all think it is a conspiracy i will let it be a conspiracy. Just for some reading however : http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/disease_inf...ead_poisoning/


Kumbaya anyone? (especially Coach W )

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Old 04-19-2012, 07:24 AM   #48
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Hi guys!


And yes the vehicle is still
And im looking across a field that normally has coyotes in it
On a road through the middle of my lease



Anyways, I thought my info was correct based on a research paper I read. If you all think it is a conspiracy i will let it be a conspiracy. Just for some reading however : http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/disease_inf...ead_poisoning/


Kumbaya anyone? (especially Coach W )
Not angry or mad at you sipster... Just the entire situation of banning lead is controversial, based upon nothing more than "thoughts" with no evidence. But we the Hunters still got shafted...

You just happen to have been in the line of fire.
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Old 04-19-2012, 07:52 AM   #49
Sippy
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Not angry or mad at you sipster... Just the entire situation of banning lead is controversial, based upon nothing more than "thoughts" with no evidence. But we the Hunters still got shafted...

You just happen to have been in the line of fire.
its all good.

If there really are no effects I would love to shoot lead. Not a fan of steel!
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Old 04-19-2012, 08:02 AM   #50
bowhuntntxn
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Personally I think it might have something to do with increased amounts of lead distributed into reservoirs used for human consumption. It makes sense. People hunt waterfowl primarily on public lakes that are someone's water supply. Lead shot in the lakes will break down and increase the total amount of lead that eventually will be consumed by humans. Possibly to toxic levels.

When lead is thrown around in fields and what not it does not have the measurable impact that consuming it through a water source would. The rest of the bs about lead bullets and game animals affecting humans is bunk. Not based on any fact. Just another scare tactic for uninformed consumers. But the lead in the water thing could be real.
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