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Old 10-22-2009, 03:55 PM   #1
Archermike2605
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Default .220 swift out penetrates the .270 & 30-06

P.O. Ackley noted that his experience proved that a .220 Swift was the most deadly caliber ever produced for deer and similar-sized game. In addition to some extensive shooting tests on animals, findings by firing two 48-grain bullets from a 220 Swift into half-inch armor plate on the front of a U.S. Army half-track. He also fired 100-grain bullets from a .270 Winchester and armor-piercing rounds from a government .30-06.

The results were amazing. Both of the .220 Swift factory loads penetrated completely through the half-inch armor plate, leaving holes approximately 3⁄8 inch in diameter. The 100-grain .270 bullets managed no penetration whatsoever, leaving only shiny spots on the armor plate, and the .30-06 armor-piercing bullets made only shallow craters.

Just thought I would pass this info on. (I'm bored )
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Old 10-22-2009, 04:00 PM   #2
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Swift for the Win! More ample proof that size doesn't matter necessarily :wink:
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Old 10-22-2009, 04:01 PM   #3
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.220 swift is a good round
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Old 10-22-2009, 04:07 PM   #4
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I kill most of my does with a swift and the results have been instant death....the speed of the swift may give an advantage of initial penetration but if you performed the same tests on larger deer through the shoulder, the swift cannot match the punch through effectiveness of the more traditional 130gr-165gr of the .270 & 30-06....can't eat steel plates

While shoulder shots with the swift have been good, I choose to shoot them in the neck with the animal looking intently at me or away motionless. I would never shoot a trophy buck in the shoulder with one as the fear of him running off to die with no blood trail, is too creepy and risky.

Now if you want to see a swift on steroids, check out the 7mm lazzeroni....120gr pills right under 3900fps.

swift - .257wby - .280AI - 7mm Lazz.
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Old 10-22-2009, 04:07 PM   #5
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do you have a link to the research ? Id like to read what parameters were used.
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Old 10-22-2009, 04:21 PM   #6
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great! i'll remember that next time i need to shoot at an armored truck or something.
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Old 10-22-2009, 04:22 PM   #7
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I have literally killed hundreds of deer with a .220 swift or a 22.250. 99.9% of the shots were brain, brain stem, or neck. The craziest kill I ever had with the 220 was over 600 yards. it was on a West Texas ranch where Whitetails were varmints and there was a kill on sight rule. I had elevation right but missed the wind drift (it ws about a 20mph crosswind) and hit him square in the ham. He was stone dead when we got to him and the blood shock from the hit completely ruined both hams. It was pretty impressive.

Last edited by cosmiccowboy; 10-22-2009 at 04:29 PM..
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Old 10-22-2009, 04:24 PM   #8
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shoot a feild point out a 320 f/s bow. Shoot a slick trick out of a 150 f/s bow..............
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Old 10-22-2009, 04:28 PM   #9
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http://***********************?v=QfDoQwIAaXg
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Old 10-22-2009, 04:30 PM   #10
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There ya go...

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Old 10-22-2009, 04:34 PM   #11
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Mike

I'm a HUGE fan of PO Ackley and the Ackley Improved cartridges (AI)

I have collected several old letters from the 50's that he wrote to customers about doing custom rifle work.

when my very good friend Blaine Eddy was a teenager , he use to sweep the shop and clean up the lathes and mills for Mr Ackley. Blaine learned ALOT from PO and later did all the load development for Ackley's son in law , Mike Bellm (Bellm Contenders) .

Blaine got me hooked on shooting 17's and coyote hunting back in 1999. Blaine has killed over 3,000 song dogs , nearly all with a 17 caliber

I currently shoot a 17 Killer Bee (ackley) , 20 FBI (ackley) , 22-250 AI , 257 AI, 6mm AI, and 280 AI.
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Old 10-22-2009, 04:38 PM   #12
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I love the swift. I also shoot a .240 weatherby and it knocks whitetail sized game stiff (as with anything--proper shot placement). With that being said, I still like to tote the .30-378 to the hill county!
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Old 10-22-2009, 04:42 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by cantexduck View Post
shoot a feild point out a 320 f/s bow. Shoot a slick trick out of a 150 f/s bow..............
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Old 10-22-2009, 04:49 PM   #14
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do you have a link to the research ? Id like to read what parameters were used.
X2, having a hard time making myself believe that one.
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Old 10-22-2009, 06:02 PM   #15
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X2, having a hard time making myself believe that one.
its all about MV, BC and Bullet Construction.

I dont doubt it, Im just interested in his parameters. Arguing with Ackley makes one look stupid

Ive killed dozens of animals with a 300 weatherby mag and a 257 weatherby mag. Both are devastating, in different manners depending on bullet weight/construction.
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Old 10-22-2009, 06:23 PM   #16
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I have a .220 swift No.1 that I thought would be a great starter gun for my girls, so I shot a couple deer a few years ago before letting the girls hunt with it and didn't get a pass through on either and both deer ran at least 50yds with no blood trail.... All my girls are now shooting the 25/06!!!
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Old 10-22-2009, 06:24 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Bily Lovec View Post
its all about MV, BC and Bullet Construction.

I dont doubt it, Im just interested in his parameters. Arguing with Ackley makes one look stupid

Ive killed dozens of animals with a 300 weatherby mag and a 257 weatherby mag. Both are devastating, in different manners depending on bullet weight/construction.
It's in an article in Volume I of P.O. Ackley's classic "Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders."
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Old 10-22-2009, 06:27 PM   #18
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Ive had a 220 for 18 years & it is deadly on hill country whitetails!! Blows yotes up nicely too. I dropped a small buck at 450 with a high shoulder shot & he never moved. The wound was massive. And dont ever shoot a slick head right between the eyes at 100, it is pretty nasty to say the least!!!!!! Head shots on hogs is nasty too, but you dont waste any meat for sure!!!
Long live the 220 swift!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 10-22-2009, 06:29 PM   #19
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I know at our old ranch we had a 10 acre tank and I was down there with some buddies dove hunting and we all had our 22-250s...it was early and one of the guys had brought one of these steel "flip" targets with the 4 little 2" circles made out of 1/4" steel...It was made for .22 rimfires but we thought it would work...We set the target out at about 250 yards across the tank and were shooting off the hood of my truck...I went first and shot...they called miss...shot.they called miss..shot...they called miss..by this time I was the target from my friends of some serious grief...we were super competitive..I reloaded and ran three more rounds fast and that darn target never flipped...By this time there was some real razzin going on...I swore I had good trigger squeezes and was about to blame it on my scope being off but decided to drive around to the other side and check the target...I got a lot of pleasure out of bringing it back and showing it to them...I was 6 for 6 but the rounds were still so hot at 250 yards they were punching right through that 1/4" plate and not even flipping the target...
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Old 10-22-2009, 06:34 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by cosmiccowboy View Post
I know at our old ranch we had a 10 acre tank and I was down there with some buddies dove hunting and we all had our 22-250s...it was early and one of the guys had brought one of these steel "flip" targets with the 4 little 2" circles made out of 1/4" steel...It was made for .22 rimfires but we thought it would work...We set the target out at about 250 yards across the tank and were shooting off the hood of my truck...I went first and shot...they called miss...shot.they called miss..shot...they called miss..by this time I was the target from my friends of some serious grief...we were super competitive..I reloaded and ran three more rounds fast and that darn target never flipped...By this time there was some real razzin going on...I swore I had good trigger squeezes and was about to blame it on my scope being off but decided to drive around to the other side and check the target...I got a lot of pleasure out of bringing it back and showing it to them...I was 6 for 6 but the rounds were still so hot at 250 yards they were punching right through that 1/4" plate and not even flipping the target...

We've shot those same targets out to 400yrds with the same results with 22-250's .224TTH
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Old 10-22-2009, 06:38 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Archermike2605 View Post
We've shot those same targets out to 400yrds with the same results with 22-250's .224TTH
LOL

I'm glad it's happened to someone else.

Smart was probably poised on the "send" button ready to call another "tall tale"
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Old 10-22-2009, 07:13 PM   #22
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I have always liked the 220 swift, but my favorite now is a 22-6mm with a 1 and 9 twist. I shoot 80 grn J4 hollow points at 3541 fps, and it is a tack driver. I have heard the 1 in 9 twist won't stabilize that heavy a bullit, but my gun seems to digest them fine (built by Randy Fite in Richards, TX). It will sure make for nasty head shots.
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Old 10-22-2009, 08:26 PM   #23
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Here are 2 great reads that I copy/paste to detail PO Ackley's findings.

If you are a reloader and don't have his 2 Vol set of books , I suggest you get it

article 1 :
P.O. Ackley, the godfather of American ballisticians, forgot more than most of us will ever know about bullet performance. Many years ago, I read his double volume “Handbook for Shooters & Reloaders.” When I turned to his chapter entitled “Killing Power” in Volume I, I fully expected a treatise on why .50-caliber bullets are more deadly than .49-caliber bullets. However, I was amazed to fine something different – something that Ackley called “shockdown power” rather than “knockdown power.”

His premise is simply that the more speed increases, the more shock increases. And when speed passes the threshold of 4,000 feet per second, a whole new dynamic is created – one that cannot be equaled with lesser speed, no matter how large the bullet.

His classic test, which proved his point, was conducted by shooting bullets into ½-inch-thick steel-armor plate from the frontal area of a U.S. military half-track. At a distance of 30 feet, he shot a .270 Win with 100-grain bullets, a .30-06 with military-issue, solid-steel, armor-piercing bullets, and a .220 Swift with a 48-grain bullet.

The results were astounding. The .270 bullet left a shiny spot on the armor plate and did not penetrate at all. Two shots from the .30-06 armor-piercing bullets left shallow craters .070 and .098 inch respectively. The little .220 Swift bullets consistently burned 3/8-inch diameter holes completely through the ½-inch armor. The results spoke for themselves. Crossing the threshold of hypervelocity created a dynamic as a result of shock that cannot be achieved any other way.

Ackley’s test was done on armor plate, but how does that translate to performance on the flesh and bone of wild animals? Ackley went on to say that if he had to pick only one rifle for hunting North American game, it would be a .220 Swift. If, in Ackley’s day, he had had access to the slower-burning powders of today, he would have been able to propel even larger-diameter bullets at “hyperspeed” – bullets traveling 4,000 or more feet per second at the muzzle. I speculate that he would have chosen a larger-caliber, heavier bullet capable of hyperspeed for his choice North American game rifle.

rest of article (great read) : http://www.barnesbullets.com/informa...ttlin-bullets/


************************************************

article 2 :
Many years ago as a young man times were tough and jobs were scarce (sound familiar). I took a job in a very large sporting goods store where I worked with 50 beautiful young women and when I was not answering their questions both job and non-job related I was busy selling the lastest firearms and reloading equipment to customers.

Well after an exciting morning in more ways than one I would often retreat upstairs at the lunch hour to the book section of the stores library where I just happened to discover two of the most fantastic books I have ever read or probably ever will read. The name of the books were "Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders Vol.I and II. by P.O. Ackley". He was perhaps the greatest gunsmith and wildcatter who ever lived. He backed up his information with cold hard tests, often complete with pictures.

His wildcat creations are still used today many, many years later and his two books were not just reloading manuals but had many amazing stories about his experiments into the then, vast unknown world of ballistics and rifle actions.

He astounded the world when he proved that a military rifle that at that time was largely scorned was the safest and strongest rifle action every made. The Jap 6.5 Arisaka.

But what I found even more astounding was his article on one of the deadliest calibers ever invented "The 220 Swift".

Ackley backed up his claim with actual tests on armor plating and live animals complete with pictures. He fired at a U.S. half-track that had 1/2 inch thick armor plating with three calibers, A military round of 30-06 Armor piercing that penetrated only .07 of an inch, a .270 Winchester with high velocity 100 grain bullets that flattened out and a .220 swift factory load with 48 grain bullet at 4,100 fps. The Swift puched right through the 1/2 inch thick armor plate. This astounded even Ackley who theorized that the bullets high rotational spin had a lot to do with penetration. The rotational spin was a fantastic 212,916 revolutions per minute. Sound familiar? Fast forward to the U.S. military that went to the 62 grain .223 bullet out of a fast 1 in 7 twist for more drill like penetration of helmets many years later.

And that was not all to this story.

Ackley and his friends not only hunted deer but had the opportunity in 1948 in Arizona to thin out herds of feral burros that weighed as much as 600 pounds. They were wild burros that had been specially bred to be as big as Missouri mules by Miners years previously. The fellows participating in the hunt were all armed with weapons like the 30-40 Kraig, 30-06 and German 8mm. They all laughed when Ackley showed up with a .220 swift but Ackley only smiled and promised not to use the gun if it proved too underpowered.

Well, when Ackley unleashed hell on earth the rest of the hunters saw burro's collapse like they were hit with bolt lightning as far away as 600 yards and even gut shot burros collapsed in their tracks. Soon everyone was screaming to get a turn at using one of the most deadliest calibers on earth.

I remember reading articles by others which seemed unbelievable at the time of even Grizzly bears being slain with one shot.

Many new calibers have been invented since those days and with today's new super magnums perhaps using very light weight bullets of larger caliber we might have a combination that would beat the old .220 Swift but since no one to my knowledge has tried this we will have to wait and find out if some newer , bigger caliber can equal this feat of the .220 Swift of so long ago.



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Old 10-23-2009, 12:24 AM   #24
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"Fast forward to the U.S. military that went to the 62 grain .223 bullet out of a fast 1 in 7 twist for more drill like penetration of helmets many years later."

thought they went to a 1-7 because the steel tip in the 62gr makes for a long bullet?


But, i agree with the idea that speed punches holes in steel... the M1 tank sabot round seems to work


Steel plate aside though, i'd rather have the 30/06 with a 220gr partition than a 220 swift with a 40gr ballistic tip for a grizzly lol.
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Old 10-23-2009, 07:42 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmiccowboy View Post
Smart was probably poised on the "send" button ready to call another "tall tale"
Why don't you just make this your signature since it's the ending statement to every story you tell? Save yourself some time.
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Old 10-23-2009, 07:57 AM   #26
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my dad has shot more deer in kansas and dropped them in one shot than with his .264 magnum. he takes them both when he goes and shoots one deer with the magnum and gets frustrated becuause they run off so he switches to the swift and has no problems.
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Old 10-23-2009, 08:07 AM   #27
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While I'm sure a 220 swift is a great gun, I have never shot at a deer that had armor plating, I have shot deer with .270, .308, 30-06, 338 winmag, 6.8spc, 30-30,25-06 and got complete penitration on everyone even with the .308 at 348 yards . With that being said as I get older I am begining to like smaller rounds and lighter grain bullets Bigger is not always better but sometimes bigger makes up for a slightly off target shot where a .220 would not do as severe a damage, I think it's all about personal preferance myself. and lots of practice
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Old 10-23-2009, 08:12 AM   #28
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I'd like to see ballistic gelatin with factory loads of the three calibers.
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Old 10-23-2009, 08:14 AM   #29
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Quote:
my dad has shot more deer in kansas and dropped them in one shot than with his .264 magnum.
Where does he get his ammo? I have a Finnbear in that calibre and have trouble finding factory loads most of the time.

Quote:
thought they went to a 1-7 because the steel tip in the 62gr makes for a long bullet
I thought they went to 1in7 twist rate to stablize that wieght of bullet better. Pretty sure twist rate doesn't care how long the bullet is,but the wieght.

Last edited by Sparkles; 10-23-2009 at 08:17 AM..
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Old 10-23-2009, 08:29 AM   #30
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Penatration is not totally about speed. You have to account for the mass weight of the bullet and the design of the bullet.

I'll take a .270 with a 130 gr nosler partition or a 30-06 with a 165 nosler partition any day over a 220 swift all day long.

Better down range energy and they hold together to punch completely through the animal.

I just don't like a .22 size bullet for big game. It is my belief that you are just asking for troubles with lost game by using the .22 caliber bulletson big game.
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Old 10-23-2009, 08:33 AM   #31
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Anyone that would hunt dangerous game with a 220 swift or like calibers in my oppinion is not right in the head and is going to end up at the bottom of the food chain.
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Old 10-23-2009, 08:41 AM   #32
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Lets compare apples to apples, not grapes to watermelons. Plus theres reloading to be factored in also.
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Old 10-23-2009, 08:42 AM   #33
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Well, penetration on a steel target has nothing to do with being deadly on deer.

I shoot a 257 WBY exclusively and I am pretty sure it is the most devestating deer cartridge ever produced. I have also shot the 220 plenty and it is a great round but, it doesn't hold a candle to the 257 WBY for deer sized animals.
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Old 10-23-2009, 09:04 AM   #34
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Quote:
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Well, penetration on a steel target has nothing to do with being deadly on deer.

I shoot a 257 WBY exclusively and I am pretty sure it is the most devestating deer cartridge ever produced. I have also shot the 220 plenty and it is a great round but, it doesn't hold a candle to the 257 WBY for deer sized animals.
Preach on, Brother

Roy Weatherby's favorite caliber, and he had his choices of them all...
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Old 10-23-2009, 09:04 AM   #35
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Quote:
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Well, penetration on a steel target has nothing to do with being deadly on deer.

I shoot a 257 WBY exclusively and I am pretty sure it is the most devestating deer cartridge ever produced. I have also shot the 220 plenty and it is a great round but, it doesn't hold a candle to the 257 WBY for deer sized animals.

Roy's first and favorite round too!!
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Old 10-23-2009, 09:58 AM   #36
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I have had much better success on deer/antelope with the .220 over the .257 wby.
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Old 10-23-2009, 10:02 AM   #37
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A BB will penetrate further than a .300 Win Mag if you put enough air behind it, that don't make it a good elk caliber, though.
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Old 10-23-2009, 10:05 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishndude View Post
Why don't you just make this your signature since it's the ending statement to every story you tell? Save yourself some time.
Good suggestion Daisy Duke! I might just do that!
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Old 10-23-2009, 10:20 AM   #39
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Good suggestion Daisy Duke!!
HA-HA!!



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Old 10-23-2009, 11:17 AM   #40
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I have had much better success on deer/antelope with the .220 over the .257 wby.
Im at 100% with over 40 animals w/a 257 weatherby mag. ranging from 6lbs to 600lbs. All single shots.
how much better success have you had w/your 220 swift?
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Old 10-23-2009, 11:42 AM   #41
Tommyh
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If youre not shooting a 6x45, you just need to put all your guns away and give them to me, because you dont know squat!



Ok i can't back that up.
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Old 10-23-2009, 11:59 AM   #42
Fishndadio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bily Lovec View Post
Im at 100% with over 40 animals w/a 257 weatherby mag. ranging from 6lbs to 600lbs. All single shots.
how much better success have you had w/your 220 swift?
My dog can beat up your dog!

Same rate of success but I have 41 animals including 3 ricochet shots and 3 using a mirror!
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Old 10-23-2009, 12:47 PM   #43
JSAPP
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"Most deadly" I call BS! It may perform better on armor plates, but for taking deer with an ethical shot there is no way it will out perform the larger rounds.
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Old 10-23-2009, 12:48 PM   #44
BrianL
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Same rate but 43 animals, and one was when i just threw the rifle at it.
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Old 10-23-2009, 12:50 PM   #45
Sparkles
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Quote:
Anyone that would hunt dangerous game with a 220 swift or like calibers in my oppinion is not right in the head and is going to end up at the bottom of the food chain.
Hey Flint doesn't this remind you of some of the caliber debates on THR?
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Old 10-23-2009, 01:14 PM   #46
Flint knapper
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Yes, i've seen and heard a lot of people that use the .22 calibers for deer and they sing the little guns praises until the shoot a really big bodied deer and they can't find any blood and they end up not recovering the deer due to the bullet only taking out one lung. This is due to the bullet going so fast that it blows up on contact and doesn't penitrate to the other side of the chest cavity.

The .22 have there place in hunting, but it is my belief that they are not even close to the best choice for big game.
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Old 10-23-2009, 01:15 PM   #47
Bily Lovec
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishndude View Post
My dog can beat up your dog!

Same rate of success but I have 41 animals including 3 ricochet shots and 3 using a mirror!

I had a che'wa'wa' that killed a Great Dane once....



got hung in the GD's throat and choked him to death
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Old 10-23-2009, 04:51 PM   #48
HandiKap Bowhunter
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Ill stick with my 270. Never had a deer or hog go more than 40 yds after the shot and all were complete pass thrus with a blood trail a blind man can follow out to 400 yds. I don't see that iddy bitty bullet doing that.
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Old 10-23-2009, 05:21 PM   #49
xman59
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i have no problem believing this, my own experiances although not the same give high credence to high velocity rifle rounds, unlike a high velocity arrow!!!! give me decent weight with an arrow, give me velocity with rifle..

basically whats happens is that the super velocity bullet acts more like a torch than an expanding bullet...if you see some very high speed rounds at super slo mo you will notice the steel plate is liquifying!! thats right the friction of the round combined with the actual diameter and bc of the bullet all enter into the equation... that little fast bullet acts like a cutting torch,

the 06 round much slower is dependant on the core and jacket of the bullet, which compared to armor plate is soft and doesnt get the job done..

the 270 with a 100 gr bullet although fast is super fragile and with a thin jacket and lead core simply crumbles when it hits the plate,,, now if you used standard grade steal theres is a chance the 270 will penetrate, the 06 round will and so will the 220 swift...

velocity creates friction, friction creates heat, heat burns,,, think about the space shuttle and the ceramic plates under the bottom of it if youve seen any video that is nothing but air friction cause the flames to appear when it returns to earth...
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Old 10-23-2009, 06:03 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flint knapper View Post
Anyone that would hunt dangerous game with a 220 swift or like calibers in my oppinion is not right in the head and is going to end up at the bottom of the food chain.
W D M Bell shot over 1000 elephant with a 7x57, and several hundred more with a 6.5x54. I will grant ya that it's not a 220 swift but I think the small bullet/big animal thing applies. He is widely considered the greatest ivory hunter ever. Just sayin
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