3D tournaments having a negative impact on hunting?

[Draco]

I'm sure glad TradAg brought this topic up instead of me. I believe he is correct about the lighter poundage and hunting but the poundage argument has always been there between the hunting crowd and the target archers that hunt. As long as the shot is perfect then you won't have any problems. The extra poundage is where you come out ahead when the shot is not perfect. Shooting animals is not the same as shooting targets, animals move before the arrow gets there.

Bisch just told me about shooting a blackbuck doe and she ran off with his arrow. How did that happen? I know few people that can out shoot him on any given day. If any one could make a perfect shot it would be Bisch. He was shooting the correct amount of arrow weight and what is maybe the best broadhead made. What happened? I'll tell you what happened, the animal moved before the arrow got there so the arrow didn't hit perfect and he didn't have enough poundage to shove it through on a non perfect shot.

He's killed a butt load of hogs with this same bow/arrow combo and some that weighed 7 or 8 times what the black buck weighed. So what happened?

[Selfbowman]

[QUOTE=Draco;6457921]I'm sure glad TradAg brought this topic up instead of me. I believe he is correct about the lighter poundage and hunting but the poundage argument has always been there between the hunting crowd and the target archers that hunt. As long as the shot is perfect then you won't have any problems. The extra poundage is where you come out ahead when the shot is not perfect. Shooting animals is not the same as shooting targets, animals move before the arrow gets there.

Bisch just told me about shooting a blackbuck doe and she ran off with his arrow. How did that happen? I know few people that can out shoot him on any given day. If any one could make a perfect shot it would be Bisch. He was shooting the correct amount of arrow weight and what is maybe the best broadhead made. What happened? I'll tell you what happened, the animal moved before the arrow got there so the arrow didn't hit perfect and he didn't have enough poundage to shove it through on a non perfect shot.


He missed his spot. I also know those blackbucks and they can jump compound arrows. They are savy and fast. And yes I would put Bisch and Sam Stevens up against any bow or poundage. Seems like there was a TV show about this or maybe we are still trying to forget about that show. Arvin

[agtex42]

Man this is a great topic for discussion and it's been great to see everyone's point of view without any bashing.

I feel like we owe it to the animals we hunt to shoot the heaviest weight bow (of vintage or modern design) that we can shoot accurately. I prefer to practice and shoot 3D with bows in the 40-45 pound range for all the reasons Mr. Dunn mentioned above. I get more enjoyment out of it and by utilizing good form it lays the foundation for my "hunting weight" bows, which for me is around 50#.

Would I like to pull more than 50# at my draw, absolutely! But I'm not at the point where I could handle that much weight in the heat of the moment so I elect to limit my engagement range and be very selective in the behavior and body position of my quarry.

I think that only taking high percentage shots goes a long way towards offsetting the possible negative effects of an errant shot with a "3D weight" bow, but at the same time we shouldn't settle for a bow that's easier to pull when we are capable of being effective with something heavier.

[Phillip Fields]

I think 3d has some negative effect on hunting. Most kill zones are not in the proper place, leading to poor shot placement for real life hunting. Hunters are using lighter bows, which is not necessarily a bad thing if not coupled with arrows that are too light. I see guys with 40 lb bows shooting arrows that are 9 grains per pound (360 grains). If they are strictly 3d shooters thisis OK, but some of them say that is their hunting rig. A 9 grain per pound arrow out of my 55 lb bow is 495 grains which I still consider too light (I like 600 - 650 grains). I would rather see a hunter with a 45 pound bow, with suitable arrow, that can consistently put that arrow in the boiler room than one with a 65 lb bow that he struggles with and sprays arrows all over the target. Many years ago (I still have the Kodiak Magnum I bought new in 1971) I was taught to shoot the heaviest bow that you are comfortable with and can shoot accurately.

I'm not real fond of the scoring system used either. 5 points for an arrow that sticks anywhere in the body seems to reward poor shooting. I likethe system that does away with the 10 ring and awards 10 points for anything in the kill zone, 0 for an miss and -5 for a hit anywhere else in the body.

The only difference between my hunting rig and 3d rig is the points on the arrow.

[flywise]

More specifically are the lower draw weights trad archers are shooting on account of 3D tournaments having a negative impact on hunting? If anything is having a negative impact on hunting it would be the wheelie guy shooting at deer out past 40yds. I bet more deer are lost doing this than poor penatration on a lower weight trad. bow

[Draco]

He missed his spot. I also know those blackbucks and they can jump compound arrows. They are savy and fast. And yes I would put Bisch and Sam Stevens up against any bow or poundage. Seems like there was a TV show about this or maybe we are still trying to forget about that show. Arvin[/QUOTE]

Exactly, he missed his spot. A black buck is only 6" wide and he didn't shoot through it. He might have killed it shooting a few more pounds.

There isn't any reason why you can't have a light bow for target shooting and a heavier pulling bow for hunting, both shooting proportionate weight arrows so the trajectory is the same. That is what I did when I shot target archery and I didn't have any problem.

Also todays bows aren't any more efficient than the bows of 30 years ago, unless we are talking about foam cored, carbon backed limbs. My 82 Brackenbury shoots in the high 190's.

[ballgame]

Personally I feel that 3-D has helped me tremendously.

But I use the same bow and arrow to shoot 3-D as I do hunting.

I'm pulling 50lbs at 27 and shoot a 540grn arrow.

Ive never had any problems with penetration.

One thing I do agree with is the placement of the 12 and 10 rings.

Theyre never in the "right" spot but hey lets be realistic, I'll probably never shoot a Dinosaur either.

That being said, shooting for the "rings" does help with one thing.... picking a spot.

I try my hardest not to even look at anything on the animal except for that that spot and as long as your shooting at and hit the spot your shooting for then it really shouldn't matter where all the rings are located.

I mean your not shooting at the vitals area when a deer walks out are you.... hopefully not. Your shooting for a tiny spot on the animal that is surrounded by the vitals.

No matter what its still better than shooting orange dots on a field target.

[M.E.B.]

[ATTACH]435883[/ATTACH][ATTACH]435884[/ATTACH]

I hit this deer in Nov. You can see the white scar I shot it with a 50 lb at 27" Blackwidow. A 220 grain Phathom 4 blade. 500 grain Gold Tip. The arrow flies at 165 fps. My son killed it a few weeks later in Dec with a compound. I have never had such poor penetration. It is only a rib, good grief! Anyone have a similar experience? Thinking about switching to Zwickey No Mercy.

From an earlier post of mine. My son TradAg had a very similiar experience a couple of years back. This deer could have not been shot any better. I have killed about 12 animals with this same hunting set up. This time the arrow just hit the deer in a manner that was a "perfect storm" for failure.

I agree with Rubydog most recurves are shooting about the same speed as they did 20 yrs back. Improvemnets have been made with reflex/deflex longbows. I own 8 longbows, 3 Massies, 1 Bighorn, 1 Great Plains, 2 21st Centurys, 1 Black Widow. I own 5 recurves, 1 Palmer, 2 Bighorns and 2 Black Widows. All are right around + or - 2 lbs to being 50 lbs at 27" and all shoot around 165 fps.

Draw length has a lot to do with arrow speed so one 50 lb bow may out shoot another if some else is shooting the same weight but has a longer draw. Having a 27" draw length is not a good thing.

I know I used to hunt with 60 lb bows but reduced to 50 lbers when I could not shoot 100 arrows during a 3 D course day. I think trying to do so with a 60 lb bow caused me to obtain some target panic to boot.

I have been having a few problems this year hunting which I stated in another thread titled Ruminations". I usually only shoot at 12 yds at whitetails due to the jumping issues. I am having problems getting the deer as close as I would like having to change my hunting tatics due to changing terrian. Had I not had this problem I would not be switching to a compound for my whitetail hunting.

I love my recurves and longbows hence I own a lot of them. This is not a compound vs trad equipment issue with me. It is not an ego problem with me worried about not getting a kill using trad equipment or being successful with a compound. We are shooting at living breathing animals and I do not want to wound something out of my hard headedness. I AM NOT SAYING THAT TRAD EQUIPMENT IS NOT EFFECTIVE. I HAVE KILLED A LOT OF GAME WITH IT.

I do believe that a lot of us are no longer hunting with the most weight that we can handle for hunting but with the most weight we can handle for an extended 3 D course. Whether 50 lbs is adquate or not is not the question. The question is could you shoot more weight just in case it was needed had you not bought bow weight with 3 D in mind.

[trad"Doc"53]

I would really like to physically be able to shoot 60+lbs. However, due to past injuries I can only comfortably shoot 50#s @ my draw length of 27"s. I enjoy shooting 3-D shoots and find the only draw back is the mind set I developes when shooting for score. When it comes time to hunt I have to "force" myself to remember to aim lower for animal movement. After a full summer of aiming dead on for points it's kind of hard to make the transition. I do use the same bow and arrows for 3-D that I do to hunt with I would like to see the target manufacturers re-do their scoring rings to have the 10 ring down low where it belongs riding against the top edge of the bottom of the 8 ring even if they had to reconfigure the 8 ring. That would make for a lot more 5s on a lot of score cards!lol

[Draco]

Go to the other thread you started and click on the link I posted of a thread in the camp fire section. A lot of compounders wounding animals posted in that thread.

[M.E.B.]

Hi Draco, I hunted for years with a bunch of my wife's family and they wounded as much or more than I did with their rifles.

There are several reasons that you can have less than perfect results with a trad bow or a compound. I think some compound shooters stretch their shots out a bit too far for their skill level and deer can jump the string with a compound too. I am not bashing trad equipment. I am having some issues here and if I have to regroup with a compound next year to figure out how to get close enough to the deer in my new area or build back up to heavier trad equipment thats what I am going to do.

I have never had a problem with compounds. Sometimes I have had a problem with the people that shoot them. Fred Eichler shoots both trad and compound. I like Wadell and his bunch, Shockey, Schuh, MR James to name a few. I have books by Bear, Thomas, Asbell, Massey, Pope, Hill, Swinehart, Thompson, St Charles.

My recurve is not shooting with enough ump or speed at 15 yds. I can go to a lighter arrow and I have used a KE calulator to figure out how light I need to go to pick up engery and I don't want to do that. I can go to a heavier bow which I am going to try. (BTW no one has offered me a trade on bow limbs yet) Or I can try to get closer but **** closer than 15 yards I might as well use a spear and trust me I have killed a lot of deer under 10 yds but I don't want it to be out of necessity.

I might be bringing some bows to the Hill Country Shoot trying to trade up in bow poundage if any one is interested I will make a list on a thread before hand.

I like your gap shooting thread. I am going to give that a try this weekend.

take care.

Mike

[Selfbowman]

He missed his spot. I also know those blackbucks and they can jump compound arrows. They are savy and fast. And yes I would put Bisch and Sam Stevens up against any bow or poundage. Seems like there was a TV show about this or maybe we are still trying to forget about that show. Arvin

Exactly, he missed his spot. A black buck is only 6" wide and he didn't shoot through it. He might have killed it shooting a few more pounds.

There isn't any reason why you can't have a light bow for target shooting and a heavier pulling bow for hunting, both shooting proportionate weight arrows so the trajectory is the same. That is what I did when I shot target archery and I didn't have any problem.

Also todays bows aren't any more efficient than the bows of 30 years ago, unless we are talking about foam cored, carbon backed limbs. My 82 Brackenbury shoots in the high 190's.[/QUOTE]

And what weight might that be. I would be willing to bet I have a 47 at 28 bow that is that fast with a 530 gr. arrow. No carbon core eathier. No need to name the bowyer we all know him.

[Deb]

Exactly, he missed his spot. A black buck is only 6" wide and he didn't shoot through it. He might have killed it shooting a few more pounds.

There isn't any reason why you can't have a light bow for target shooting and a heavier pulling bow for hunting, both shooting proportionate weight arrows so the trajectory is the same. That is what I did when I shot target archery and I didn't have any problem.

Also todays bows aren't any more efficient than the bows of 30 years ago, unless we are talking about foam cored, carbon backed limbs. My 82 Brackenbury shoots in the high 190's.

And what weight might that be. I would be willing to bet I have a 47 at 28 bow that is that fast with a 530 gr. arrow. No carbon core eathier. No need to name the bowyer we all know him.[/QUOTE]

Selfbowman does not have a 82 Brakenbury. Who are you and why are you logged in with his username?

[dmaxshawn]

I seem to get many 5's when I shoot a round. That's because I'm looking at the elbow instead of the vitals on the target. I practice for real life kills not looking at the lungs and shooting over the back when they duck.

[muzzlebrake]

I seem to get many 5's when I shoot a round. That's because I'm looking at the elbow instead of the vitals on the target. I practice for real life kills not looking at the lungs and shooting over the back when they duck.

Same here except for all the foot and leg hits I get
I shoot 3D with the same bow(S) I hunt with. I don't shoot to try and win but rather to just do the best I can for an imaginary hunting situation. To me a 3D shoot is real world practice and a lot of fun hanging out with you guys,
As for old bows vs new technology, I think one would be hard pressed to find a faster bow than an old Damon Howatt SD made back on the 60's-70's assuming pound for pound and same DL. Ain't Martin still using that limb and riser design today?