3D tournaments having a negative impact on hunting?

[TradAg02]

More specifically are the lower draw weights trad archers are shooting on account of 3D tournaments having a negative impact on hunting? I have no intention of offending anyone, or telling anyone what is an ethical setup, just posing a question based on an observation.


I began shooting began shooting competitively at age 11 (22 years ago). That was about the time the change was made from broad heads and paper targets to 3D. At that time most people competed with their hunting setups. I remember very few adult men shooting less than 60lbs and everyone was shooting wood or aluminum arrows. . Back then tournaments consisted of 15-20 targets, a lunch break to move the stakes, then another 15-20 targets. Assuming a dozen or so warm up shots most guys only had to draw their bow ~50 over the course of a day.


Fast forward to today…Many trad shooters will not make the drive to a local 3D shoot if they can’t shoot at least two rounds. Then many of the big weekend shoots encourage individuals to shoot four or more rounds over the course of a weekend which generally requires three rounds of 50 on a single day.


When I began shooting a comfortable draw weight was a hunting draw weight. One that you only expected to shoot a dozen or so times consecutively during practice. Today most individuals only shoot the weight that they can manage over the course of an entire day. Consequently draw weights have decreased substantially. Compounding the problem (no pun intended), arrow weights have decreased along with draw weights.



I understand that under the right circumstances a 40lb-50lb properly tuned trad setup will efficiently kill a deer, however I can’t help but wonder how many animals are lost or wounded each year that would have otherwise been recovered at a heavier draw weight?

[JEFFRO]

the bows being made today are so far Superior to the bow of 20 years ago it's not even funny.. 25+ years ago i was shoot'n 65 to70 pounds at 28, today i shoot 48 at 28, with a 600 grain arrow, and i get the same penetration.
the only reason i see to shoot heavy poundage 60+ is if your hunting dangerous game..

[Deb]

the bows being made today are so far Superior to the bow of 20 years ago it's not even funny.. 25+ years ago i was shoot'n 65 to70 pounds at 28, today i shoot 48 at 28, with a 600 grain arrow, and i get the same penetration.
the only reason i see to shoot heavy poundage 60+ is if your hunting dangerous game..

Agreed

[txchuck]

I shoot the same bows and arrows 3-d or hunting. If anything, I am likely to shoot a slightly lighter bow hunting because I may have to shoot it with no warm up or out of position.
Chuck

[Oneway]

the bows being made today are so far Superior to the bow of 20 years ago it's not even funny.. 25+ years ago i was shoot'n 65 to70 pounds at 28, today i shoot 48 at 28, with a 600 grain arrow, and i get the same penetration.
the only reason i see to shoot heavy poundage 60+ is if your hunting dangerous game..

Outstanding topic to discuss, I am going to have to agree with Mr Murray, today bows are far superior to what was built in the earlier years. I like to shoot about 53-54 @ my draw length....

[Limbwalker]

the bows being made today are so far Superior to the bow of 20 years ago it's not even funny.. 25+ years ago i was shoot'n 65 to70 pounds at 28, today i shoot 48 at 28, with a 600 grain arrow, and i get the same penetration.
the only reason i see to shoot heavy poundage 60+ is if your hunting dangerous game..

I also agree. Most 50# compounds today would out-shoot any 60# compound made just 15 years ago, thanks to improvements in strings/cables, cams and limbs. They are just far better bows.

As for this thought:

I understand that under the right circumstances a 40lb-50lb properly tuned trad setup will efficiently kill a deer, however I can’t help but wonder how many animals are lost or wounded each year that would have otherwise been recovered at a heavier draw weight?

Hunting deer with a bow is a game of ACCURACY, not a game of penetration. I don't know how many times I've had to say this, but it's a fact. It doesn't matter how much weight you shoot if you can't put the arrow where it needs to go. And I'll take a person shooting a 40# longbow that can put it in a 3" circle at 15 yards vs. a macho yahoo pulling 70# and attempting 40 yard + shots all day long.

You can't legislate common sense.

John

[Limbwalker]

One more thing, I hunt with a 51-52# recurve and I can't remember the last time I didn't have a total pass-through with the arrow sticking in the dirt. Why some guys feel the need to shoot 60+ lbs. at a whitetail is beyond me. It's just not necessary.

John

[Greywolf in Hawaii]

At our club they like to do "Extreme shoots" targets are 30-50 yds. That's fine for compounds. But when I set up a course the farthest is 26 yards and it's always a large target. 13 - 20 yards is the norm but they are under actual conditions. on one knee, kneel, shooting under or over a log or branch.
I'd much rather set up a course like that so people understand arrow trajectory rather than speed or distance.

I always get lots of comments when I set it up. Most are good comments, but you can tell the "I'm just here to shoot a good score" guys uhh...making comments.

[gatorgar]

The only way hunting is being affected by 3D is shot placement.very few targets have the vitals in the proper place, and after shooting 3ad all summer, most people aim at the ten ring on a live animal, forgetting that the inks at actually higher or further back than in real life. Accounts for more than a few bad shots every season.

[Deb]

At our club they like to do "Extreme shoots" targets are 30-50 yds. That's fine for compounds. But when I set up a course the farthest is 26 yards and it's always a large target. 13 - 20 yards is the norm but they are under actual conditions. on one knee, kneel, shooting under or over a log or branch.
I'd much rather set up a course like that so people understand arrow trajectory rather than speed or distance.

I always get lots of comments when I set it up. Most are good comments, but you can tell the "I'm just here to shoot a good score" guys uhh...making comments.

I like this kind of course.

[Ron]

The only way hunting is being affected by 3D is shot placement.very few targets have the vitals in the proper place, and after shooting 3ad all summer, most people aim at the ten ring on a live animal, forgetting that the inks at actually higher or further back than in real life. Accounts for more than a few bad shots every season.

I am the opposite, I tend to shoot where it'll kill what I'm looking at, thus my low scores. I take a lot of heart shots on deer and the 3D course and it usually results in a 5 I can't see the rings, so it's just a walk with friends and a good time.
I hunt with anywhere from a 47# to a 55# bow and I kill what I shoot at 99% of the time.

[SwampGhost]

I am the opposite, I tend to shoot where it'll kill what I'm looking at, thus my low scores. I take a lot of heart shots on deer and the 3D course and it usually results in a 5 I can't see the rings, so it's just a walk with friends and a good time.
I hunt with anywhere from a 47# to a 55# bow and I kill what I shoot at 99% of the time.

I'm right there with you Ron. I shoot for low heart because we all know how fast a deer can drop before an arrow gets there. You can see from the ate up spot on my target where I shoot.
I shoot 3D with the same bow I hunt with.
52#@26" 58"amo

[rubydog]

I will disagree with a few points on here.

I will say SOME styles of bows are better to a degree than they were 20 years ago. For the most part I would relegate that to the longbow style now called modern longbow. I have a hard time saying that the recurves that most people make now are so much better than the Wing's, Bob Lee's, Bear, Brackenberry, Black Widow, Big Horn, Zipper,Dickie Fireball, Harry Drake and many other bows being made twenty some odd years ago. I recall that it was around that time as well that the 21'st Century longbow's were making big waves for their design and lower poundage as well. We all must remember that most all bow designs that we see today have been done over and over in the past with of course a few acceptions.

I have found that there has been a change more so in mindset than anything I could put my finger on. Point and case, twenty years ago I was telling people about the benefits of tapered wood arrows which in it's purest sense is nothing more than weight forward design. I also endorsed and used Grizzly broadheads which I felt were much better mostly due to the length to width ratio. Little did I or anyone else know that they were what we know today as a single bevel with a Tanto tip. I met alot of resistance from people saying I was just trying to sell a "more expensive arrow."

Now enter a Dr. Ed Ashby whom does some studies and clarifies the front of center debate and inserts EXTREME Front Of Center logic. His tests incorporated EFOC, Single Bevel Broadheads and is performed with lower poundage bows. Most of the information was already known just not tested in a controlled environment a thesis written on it.

All of a sudden a whole lot of people that were shooting those heavy weight bows now had a valid scientific reason to go down in weight with ego in tact. Additionally, now that that same person that previously shot the heavy weight bows has found that he can do many new things with the lighter weight bow's.

1. Practice more without fatigue or sore fingers
2. Have a more solid bow arm
3. Have a more consistent anchor point
4. Achieve more consistent accuracy
5. Stay at anchor longer
6. More time to focus on a target spot

I can make a number of other arguments but I hope you get the gist of what I am saying.

[rubydog]

I also agree. Most 50# compounds today would out-shoot any 60# compound made just 15 years ago, thanks to improvements in strings/cables, cams and limbs. They are just far better bows.

As for this thought:



Hunting deer with a bow is a game of ACCURACY, not a game of penetration. I don't know how many times I've had to say this, but it's a fact. It doesn't matter how much weight you shoot if you can't put the arrow where it needs to go. And I'll take a person shooting a 40# longbow that can put it in a 3" circle at 15 yards vs. a macho yahoo pulling 70# and attempting 40 yard + shots all day long.

You can't legislate common sense.

John

Conversely speaking, It does matter how much weight you are shooting if you are over bowed. Many, many peoples accuracy improved exponentially by doing down to a weight they could handle...

Not picking on you, just making a point from what you said.

[Selfbowman]

Yes Terry I agree . Arrow weight is as important as bow weight and more so with a lighter bow. You just half to be a better hunter. Ya'll get tired of hearing this but what is easier to stop a volkswagon or a train?