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Old 09-16-2018, 05:17 PM   #1
UltraMax
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Default Cartridge Opinions, Shiloh Sharps

Well I’ve decided to bite the bullet and place an order with Kirk and Lucinda at Shiloh Sharps for an 1874 Montana Roughrider.

Here’s my conundrum, I have decided on all other custom features I want but I’m trying to decide on caliber.

I’m trying to decide between the 45-70 and the 45-100. The 70 gives me the smokeless option on reloading but I already have a 45-70 and other cartridges I reload for.

I am no stranger to reloading and have reloaded all my own hunting and competition ammunition since I was a kid so loading black powder cartridges won’t be a problem, but...

If I get the 100, I will have to load strictly black powder, real black powder, not pyrodex (my choice), and there will not be the option for smokeless. This is the biggest issue I’m struggling with. I want the 100 more but am somewhat curious if I will be upset because I won’t be able to use smokeless powder.

I’m not worried about cleaning, fowling or blowtubing, I’ve read that cleaning a breech loading powder rifle is a breeze and in a hunting situation I wouldn’t be taking more than a couple of shots anyway. I also do not care about the availability of factory ammunition because I will reload 100% of this rifle’s ammunition.

I’m also gonna cast my own bullets from lead alloy.

Just wanting some thoughts from those who have owned or currently own a black powder cartridge rifle.

What would you go with? I’ve already got several rifles that can kill whatever I wanted to on the planet so I’m not in the “good all around gun” category.

Last edited by UltraMax; 09-16-2018 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 09-16-2018, 05:28 PM   #2
Mike Javi Cooper
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50-90 Sharps...

Javi
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Old 09-16-2018, 05:28 PM   #3
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But.....if the range is full...2 sounds from the wind end and most will go home
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Old 09-16-2018, 05:33 PM   #4
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The 50-90 does sound sweet....

But of the 2 listed i would go with the 45-70. The smokeless option would seal the deal for me. I don't know if you would ever sell it, but i would suspect selling the 45-70 would be a little easier too. Sounds like a great rifle either way
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Old 09-16-2018, 05:34 PM   #5
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I had a genuine '86 in 50/110 WCF, many years ago and it was a blast to shoot.

Javi
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Old 09-16-2018, 05:40 PM   #6
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I would go with 45-70 just for the smokeless option. I have been looking at them for many years just haven’t placed my order yet.
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Old 09-16-2018, 05:53 PM   #7
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Oh believe me I’ve looked into the 50-90 because I will mostly hunt with it, but I know that I will be shooting this thing in BPCR Silhouette matches and the 50-90 May be a little stout.

With the 45-70, smokeless loads and gas checked bullets I can outperform any black powder cartridge (this includes the 45-120) and the Shiloh’s can withstand Ruger no 1 pressures, which can push a 500 grn bullet up to 1800fps, which is within 150fps of a light load .458 Winchester of the same grain bullet, but....

I most likely would not push the rifle, or my shoulder, to that extreme.

A BP loaded 45-100 will push a 530 grain bullet around 1300-1400fps, the 45-70 is about 1100-1200fps.

My brain is telling me to get the 45-70 but I keep debating with myself.

Last edited by UltraMax; 09-16-2018 at 05:57 PM.
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Old 09-16-2018, 07:02 PM   #8
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My thinking would be that if I had an authentic replica (which I do, but in a muzzleloader) I would use authentic components (which I do - BP). So my suggestion would be go with 45-100 and use BP to get the true authentic experience. Besides, there is nothing like the smell of BP smoke in the early mornings.
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Old 09-16-2018, 07:10 PM   #9
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I went with a 45/70
I loaded some BP but the cleaning made me go back to smokeless
You can load a Barnes pointed bullet up to plum silly velocity
It is my favorite rifle
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Old 09-16-2018, 07:45 PM   #10
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444 Marlin
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Old 09-16-2018, 07:58 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buff View Post
I went with a 45/70

I loaded some BP but the cleaning made me go back to smokeless

You can load a Barnes pointed bullet up to plum silly velocity

It is my favorite rifle

Attachment 924769


Thatís a beautiful rifle.


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Old 09-16-2018, 08:16 PM   #12
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I would go 45/70 because I’m not a fan of cleaning black powder rifles.
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Old 09-16-2018, 08:17 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buff View Post
I went with a 45/70
I loaded some BP but the cleaning made me go back to smokeless
You can load a Barnes pointed bullet up to plum silly velocity
It is my favorite rifle
Attachment 924769
Buff, can you please tell me a little about your rifle. Did you have the barrel polished? What kind of accuracy are you getting? What grade of wood? What grain of Barnes bullet? Please and thank you.
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Old 09-16-2018, 08:51 PM   #14
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444 Marlin
They donít offer it in that cartridge. Only old school cartridges originally loaded with black powder.
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Old 09-16-2018, 08:59 PM   #15
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If you step up to Dakota Arms

I know sharps has 444 Marlin too but it might depend on configuration.

http://csharpsarms.com/catalog-detai...r-s-Rifle.html

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Old 09-16-2018, 10:31 PM   #16
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45-70. Not to mention the pressures one of those rifles can handle.

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Old 09-16-2018, 11:04 PM   #17
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I got the sharps bug when i saw a small picture of a soon to be released 1874 sharps rifle in the back of Guns & Ammo way back when (1970's) and I had to have one. Took a little while but I managed to get one. These were the "Farmingdale" rifles. The company moved to Big Timber MT. some yeas later. The partnership fell apart and so one company became C. Sharps Arms and retained the rights for the original sharps logo and the other company became Shiloh Arms. Seems kind of strange but they are right across the street from one another. As far as caliber goes I would ask why the 45-100. it falls between the 45-70, 45-90 and 45-110. Ten grains of black powder isn't going to make much difference in velocity. I would have to look it up but I think you could use smokeless in the 45/90. I have a 50/90 and use smokeless in it as well as my 45/70(5744). You can also use Black Horn 209. When I bought my first Sharps the only calibers available were 45/70 and 50/70. I went with the 45/70 because of availability of brass (pre internet). Things have changed but the 45/100 is still kind of an odd ball case . You may be able to find ready made cases but you might also have to go to a 45 caliber basic case and cut it down- you may already have looked into this. There is also the historical aspect to look at in that which cartridges were used in the Buffalo hunts. As far as which cartridge to go with. the 45/70 will do anything you want it to do. But that isn't why us black powder shooters get into this. We want something different (that is how I ended up with a 50/90). Unless there is just something that floats your boat about the 45/100 I would look at the 45/90. If you haven't read Mike Venturino's Book Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West it has a wealth of information. Shiloh makes beautiful rifles. Good luck and hope this helps.
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Old 09-16-2018, 11:39 PM   #18
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I was going to say the same as 250AI. Unless youre really going to shoot past 600 alot, go with 45-70 and shoot BP
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Old 09-17-2018, 02:17 AM   #19
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Quote:
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I got the sharps bug when i saw a small picture of a soon to be released 1874 sharps rifle in the back of Guns & Ammo way back when (1970's) and I had to have one. Took a little while but I managed to get one. These were the "Farmingdale" rifles. The company moved to Big Timber MT. some yeas later. The partnership fell apart and so one company became C. Sharps Arms and retained the rights for the original sharps logo and the other company became Shiloh Arms. Seems kind of strange but they are right across the street from one another. As far as caliber goes I would ask why the 45-100. it falls between the 45-70, 45-90 and 45-110. Ten grains of black powder isn't going to make much difference in velocity. I would have to look it up but I think you could use smokeless in the 45/90. I have a 50/90 and use smokeless in it as well as my 45/70(5744). You can also use Black Horn 209. When I bought my first Sharps the only calibers available were 45/70 and 50/70. I went with the 45/70 because of availability of brass (pre internet). Things have changed but the 45/100 is still kind of an odd ball case . You may be able to find ready made cases but you might also have to go to a 45 caliber basic case and cut it down- you may already have looked into this. There is also the historical aspect to look at in that which cartridges were used in the Buffalo hunts. As far as which cartridge to go with. the 45/70 will do anything you want it to do. But that isn't why us black powder shooters get into this. We want something different (that is how I ended up with a 50/90). Unless there is just something that floats your boat about the 45/100 I would look at the 45/90. If you haven't read Mike Venturino's Book Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West it has a wealth of information. Shiloh makes beautiful rifles. Good luck and hope this helps.
Thanks for the post, I have looked into the 45-90, but my thinking was to go with a little bigger powder charge for hunting purposes. My thoughts were to go with the 100 because, from what Iíve read on Shiloh forums, the 110 may be a little stout for a 40 shot BPCR silhouette match and 100 would be the ďmostĒ you would want in those matches with a 12lb rifle. Plus, if I ever wanted to shoot a Creedmoor match, I would have more than plenty of gun.

I will probably end up with the 45-70.

My worries are, which may be dumb, that a 45-70 with a BP load, wonít achieve adequate velocity for a decent 200 yard hunting rifle and that I may end up loving the BP aspect of having this gun, and worry Iíll wish I had ordered a bigger cartridge.

Is black horn 209 a good powder?
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Old 09-17-2018, 07:51 AM   #20
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I have had two Shiloh Sharps rifles, 45-70 and 45-90. I kept the 45-70. I have only shot black powder out of mine. 45-70 has a lot of reloading data out there.

Steve Brooks makes decent moulds and I have a 525gr Creedmoor style bullet.

http://brooksmoulds.com/basepour.html

I use 18:1 lead/tin mix, with Swiss powder, cardboard wad and CCI BR2 primers. As long as you use a blow tube you can shoot around 10-15 rounds before cleaning, just depends on your load,lube and the weather.

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Old 09-17-2018, 03:52 PM   #21
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There are a couple of things I forgot that may help on which way you go. I assume you're going to start with lead cast bullets. do you think you'll at some point want to try PP? The old 45/70 cases were balloon head and would accept 70 grains of BP. I doubt you will be able to come close to that with a modern case. 65 grains is the most I get in mine using a 405 and up bullet weight. that limits your thickness with grease cookie and which ever type of wad you decide on. With PP you have a little more room but not much. this is where the longer case has a real advantage over the 45/70. You have room for a heavier powder charge and heavier bullet and still room for grease cookie and wad. I really don't worry about velocity much. The restrictions on BP is such that you can only push a bullet so fast. A fair amount of powder goes out the end of your barrel unused. The 45/70 will get you to 200 and beyond but it takes a really good shot to reach that far with a peep sight. And i can tell you from personnel experience the 50/90 isn't a gun you take out to shoot prairie dogs! you can get 90 grs. of BP in it and you start sending 550gr. and 600gr. bullets down range and it stops being fun real quick. Black horn 209 gives some impressive velocity in BP cartridge rifles. They used to have a reloading guide on their website. Which ever round you go with your are getting a great rifle from a great company and it will be fun. Good luck I hope we get to see pictures of it soon.
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Old 09-17-2018, 04:12 PM   #22
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Buff, can you please tell me a little about your rifle. Did you have the barrel polished? What kind of accuracy are you getting? What grade of wood? What grain of Barnes bullet? Please and thank you.

I did not have the barrel polished.
I get about a 1" group with the Barnes 300 grain Socom bullets
I used the Ruger #1 load data
mine is standard grade wood but mighty pretty

I did not buy it from Shilo I bought it from a broker that has a standing order so my wait was not very long
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Old 09-17-2018, 04:13 PM   #23
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http://www.shiloh-ballard.com/shiloh...s_for_sale.htm
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Old 09-17-2018, 08:07 PM   #24
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There are a couple of things I forgot that may help on which way you go. I assume you're going to start with lead cast bullets. do you think you'll at some point want to try PP? The old 45/70 cases were balloon head and would accept 70 grains of BP. I doubt you will be able to come close to that with a modern case. 65 grains is the most I get in mine using a 405 and up bullet weight. that limits your thickness with grease cookie and which ever type of wad you decide on. With PP you have a little more room but not much. this is where the longer case has a real advantage over the 45/70. You have room for a heavier powder charge and heavier bullet and still room for grease cookie and wad. I really don't worry about velocity much. The restrictions on BP is such that you can only push a bullet so fast. A fair amount of powder goes out the end of your barrel unused. The 45/70 will get you to 200 and beyond but it takes a really good shot to reach that far with a peep sight. And i can tell you from personnel experience the 50/90 isn't a gun you take out to shoot prairie dogs! you can get 90 grs. of BP in it and you start sending 550gr. and 600gr. bullets down range and it stops being fun real quick. Black horn 209 gives some impressive velocity in BP cartridge rifles. They used to have a reloading guide on their website. Which ever round you go with your are getting a great rifle from a great company and it will be fun. Good luck I hope we get to see pictures of it soon.
Their wait time is 18 months right now. Thanks for the info. How much powder are you getting in the 45/70 case and are you using a compression die.
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Old 09-17-2018, 08:11 PM   #25
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Their wait time is 18 months right now. Thanks for the info. How much powder are you getting in the 45/70 case and are you using a compression die.
Check out Ballard

He may have what you want in stock or coming.
He only marks them up $200.00.
Well worth not having to wait 18 months
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Old 09-17-2018, 08:16 PM   #26
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I used a drop tube and a compression die for this load
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Old 09-17-2018, 08:53 PM   #27
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I like the black powder aspect. Think I’ll enjoy that very much.

Do you put a piece of news paper under the primer?
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Old 09-17-2018, 09:29 PM   #28
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Quote:
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I like the black powder aspect. Think Iíll enjoy that very much.

Do you put a piece of news paper under the primer?
No paper over flash hole, I have found that pistol primers work very well too. SPG lube is about the easiest to use. I use a drop tube for powder. Here is a link for Buffalo Arms, you can learn a lot here. I shot BPCR Silhouette for 6 years with my Shiloh.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/
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Old 09-17-2018, 10:04 PM   #29
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I went through this same thing years ago. It's a " classic" rifle born in the day of black powder. I went with the 45-110 and don't regret it one bit. It is harder to load, harder to clean, but its not a rifle I use everyday. In fact it's kind of a special day rifle. When you touch off that load and the smoke billows out. It kinda takes you back in time, like I think it should. And he'll anybody can have a 45-70, I wouldn't spend that kind of money to have an ordinary chambering in an exquisite rifle. Just my opinion and believe it's worth what ya paid for it. If you get the 45-70, I believe there will be another rifle in your future in a true black powder classic chambering, because you will doubt your decision.. I could not afford more then one, so I got it the first time after a lot of debate. You may feel totaly differant then I, but by you posting this question I don't think so. They are truly a work of art. If you were getting a pedersali or something like that, my opinion would be differant, in favor of the 45-70. But this is a whole differant ball game.
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Old 09-18-2018, 07:39 AM   #30
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I went through this same thing years ago. It's a " classic" rifle born in the day of black powder. I went with the 45-110 and don't regret it one bit. It is harder to load, harder to clean, but its not a rifle I use everyday. In fact it's kind of a special day rifle. When you touch off that load and the smoke billows out. It kinda takes you back in time, like I think it should. And he'll anybody can have a 45-70, I wouldn't spend that kind of money to have an ordinary chambering in an exquisite rifle. Just my opinion and believe it's worth what ya paid for it. If you get the 45-70, I believe there will be another rifle in your future in a true black powder classic chambering, because you will doubt your decision.. I could not afford more then one, so I got it the first time after a lot of debate. You may feel totaly differant then I, but by you posting this question I don't think so. They are truly a work of art. If you were getting a pedersali or something like that, my opinion would be differant, in favor of the 45-70. But this is a whole differant ball game.
What can the recoil of the 45-110 be compared too? 308? 30í06? Iíve been told it is stout. Do you shoot BPCR with it?

Iím not scared of recoil, but getting the hell kicked out of me during a 40 shot match might not be fun.
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Old 09-18-2018, 10:04 AM   #31
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I think trying to compare recoil between smokeless and PB is had for me to do. I will say I loaded some smokeless in my 45/70 with I think they were 405 grain bullets at 1800 fps. Had a box of 20, shot 3 and the other 17 are still in the box and that was 25-30 years ago. The recoil was stout. If you are in the Leakey area you are welcome to come by and we can go shoot both rifles and then you can see first hand what it is like. I think on shilohs forum they use to post some of the BPCR match results. You might check there and see which calibers those folks are using. I think the 40's are pretty popular in BPCR shoots. I don't use a compression die with my loads. I do it the old fashion way with a dowel rod and a marker line. not very high tech but I doubt many hide hunters used a compression die.
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Old 09-19-2018, 08:48 AM   #32
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Thanks for the replies. I’m seeing that I can load Black Horn 209 in the 100. Anyone have experience using/loading black horn?
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