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    #76
    Originally posted by Outbreaker View Post
    Done it with foam, clay, dry sand, wet sand, wet phone books, dry phone books and limited testing on pig carcasses.

    All the data was the same as foam. The same bow generates the same penetration and any differences were never statistically significant. All this data is flawed?
    Please go find any published scientific data to support your claims....good luck and I'm out as well.

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      #77
      Its a miracle the Indians killed anything......

      This sounds like a post graduate project gone awry

      Comment


        #78
        Originally posted by samson33 View Post
        Please go find any published scientific data to support your claims....good luck and I'm out as well.
        I did not publish my claims but took the same care as I did with my masters thesis, and it was just as solid.

        As for published papers on how KE does work and not Momentum......there are thousands.

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          #79
          Originally posted by eradicator View Post
          Its a miracle the Indians killed anything......

          This sounds like a post graduate project gone awry
          Not awry. It was done as any study would be done. Focus on one variable/question.

          Does a heavier arrow or a light arrow penetrate further.

          I fixed the bow variable, arrow shaft material, arrow point, arrow shaft diameter and every thing else I could think about. The only thing that varied was the mass of the arrow. I also many different mediums. I ran tests for statistical significance to make sure any findings were true and accurate.

          What I found is that if the bow has the same amount of stored energy, arrow weight has no real effect on penetration. The reason for this is as mass increases the velocity decreases. We all know this.


          As far as the indians.....this study did not even attempt to answer any questions on the effectiveness of traditional equipment.

          Comment


            #80
            Originally posted by Outbreaker View Post
            To give you an idea of the testing I have done here is one. I was looking for a heavier quieter arrow without having to go to aluminum or change spine. Each arrow hit a new clean area of the target.

            1 Bow. 70# (can go up to 78) and carbon arrows that weighed at the time 415gr total weight.

            I shot 20 shots into a new foam target and measured the depth of penetration.

            I then added weed eater string to the center of the carbon. It added about 100gr of weight without affecting spine.

            I shot 20 shots into a different foam target and measured the depth of penetration.

            I then added silicone aquarium tubing AND weed eater string. This added about 300gr to my arrows.

            I shot 20 shots into a different foam target and measured the depth of penetration.

            I then cranked the poundage up to 78 and shot the heavy arrows 20 shots into a different foam target and measured the depth of penetration.

            At the same poundage the penetration difference was not statistically significant. The noise and vibration were greatly reduced.

            At 8# heavier there was a massive difference. But this was not due to the change in arrow.......it was due to the change of energy added to the system.

            If that is true, you either have a bow that works on a perfectly linear efficiency curve or you just defied the laws of how compound bows store and use energy. The math to that just doesn’t work out. I’m not saying you’re lying or that you did wrong, but there are so many tests showing the opposite that I’m puzzled as to how you drew this conclusion.

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              #81
              Originally posted by popup_menace View Post
              If that is true, you either have a bow that works on a perfectly linear efficiency curve or you just defied the laws of how compound bows store and use energy. The math to that just doesn’t work out. I’m not saying you’re lying or that you did wrong, but there are so many tests showing the opposite that I’m puzzled as to how you drew this conclusion.
              I don't know how it works with a compound as I don't own any but I do know for a fact that a heavier arrow out of a recurve will penetrate deeper than a lighter one. I shoot a 410g arrow as I like the flat trajectory and they penetrate well enough for what I do. I also have a set of 646g arrows that I built for fun since the shafts were given to me (over spined, footed shafts, 100g inserts etc) and they hit harder and penetrate deeper into my target than the 410's do.

              Richard.

              Comment


                #82
                Outbreaker, do you actually bowhunt? What your saying is wrong and is misleading guys that are actually looking for info on actual hunting arrow setups.

                To dumb it down for us normal guys, if I take a ping pong ball and a golf ball and throw them at some poor guy blind folded. I would venture to guess, he'd figure out which one is which.

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                  #83
                  Originally posted by tradslam View Post
                  Outbreaker, do you actually bowhunt? What your saying is wrong and is misleading guys that are actually looking for info on actual hunting arrow setups.

                  To dumb it down for us normal guys, if I take a ping pong ball and a golf ball and throw them at some poor guy blind folded. I would venture to guess, he'd figure out which one is which.
                  Yep. Makes sense to this dumb normal guy.

                  Comment


                    #84
                    Originally posted by HighwayHunter View Post
                    Fairly new to archery, so without sparking a heated debate I'd like to know something.

                    My bow is no top of the line bow. It's a diamond infinite edge. However I am accurate with it and it shoots pretty fast at a 70# draw 31". Should I worry about shooting heavier arrows for better penetration and losing some speed? Or keep my lighter arrows and keep the speed in hopes to beat a deer who might jump the string?


                    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                    Back to the actual question.
                    There is no need to go extreme either way.
                    While not a real fast bow, your DL allows for good speed out of any bow, so just get a standard ICS type arrow from your local dealer in a 340 or possibly a 300 spine cut to app. 29.5 inches, which should leave 1+ inch of arrow in front of your rest, and be plenty safe.
                    Either of these shafts, (finished arrow) will weigh in excess of 400 grains, and will be quiet and fast enough for any hunting application you will have in the near future.
                    As you get more involved, you're gonna change equipment and then you can listen to arrow theories and make your own choice.

                    Comment


                      #85
                      I believe bows are like rifles. They "like" certain weights and spines. I went through a few different arrows to find the arrow that I was most accurate with. So that is the arrow I shoot. Accuracy is most important and I match the broadhead just as carefully. I added everything to silence as much as possible.

                      Comment


                        #86
                        Originally posted by Outbreaker View Post
                        Not awry. It was done as any study would be done. Focus on one variable/question.

                        Does a heavier arrow or a light arrow penetrate further.

                        I fixed the bow variable, arrow shaft material, arrow point, arrow shaft diameter and every thing else I could think about. The only thing that varied was the mass of the arrow. I also many different mediums. I ran tests for statistical significance to make sure any findings were true and accurate.

                        What I found is that if the bow has the same amount of stored energy, arrow weight has no real effect on penetration. The reason for this is as mass increases the velocity decreases. We all know this.


                        As far as the indians.....this study did not even attempt to answer any questions on the effectiveness of traditional equipment.
                        Just curious, did you shoot into a fresh target each time? Was each target of uniform composition and density? I'm interested in your findings because it does contradict what I was taught in engineering school.

                        Comment


                          #87
                          Here is my testing when I wanted to look at increase in FOC and total arrow weight. Take it for what it is worth, but I think this confirms what I said in an earlier post about KE decreasing and Momentum increasing at a certain point. This is done to look at KE vs Momentum. (I think my calculations are correct)

                          410 grain arrow @ 312 fps 88.53 KE .57 Momentum 7.95 FOC
                          460 grain arrow @ 298 fps 90.62 KE .61 Momentum 12.52 FOC
                          480 grain arrow @ 291 fps 90.17 KE .62 Momentum 14.03 FOC
                          510 grain arrow @ 284 fps 91.25 KE .64 Momentum 16.05 FOC
                          560 grain arrow @ 269 fps 89.89 KE .67 Momentum 18.90 FOC

                          I am at a 595 grain arrows now with an FOC of close to 20%. Not sure what my speed is and I really do not care. I just know that what I have is overkill for anywhere basically in the US and some other places, but this set up for me is QUIET, FORGIVING and ACCURATE for me! My choice, my setup and it works!

                          This also shows that KE can drop but Momentum will still climb.

                          Comment


                            #88
                            Originally posted by Mudslinger View Post
                            Here is my testing when I wanted to look at increase in FOC and total arrow weight. Take it for what it is worth, but I think this confirms what I said in an earlier post about KE decreasing and Momentum increasing at a certain point. This is done to look at KE vs Momentum. (I think my calculations are correct)

                            410 grain arrow @ 312 fps 88.53 KE .57 Momentum 7.95 FOC
                            460 grain arrow @ 298 fps 90.62 KE .61 Momentum 12.52 FOC
                            480 grain arrow @ 291 fps 90.17 KE .62 Momentum 14.03 FOC
                            510 grain arrow @ 284 fps 91.25 KE .64 Momentum 16.05 FOC
                            560 grain arrow @ 269 fps 89.89 KE .67 Momentum 18.90 FOC

                            I am at a 595 grain arrows now with an FOC of close to 20%. Not sure what my speed is and I really do not care. I just know that what I have is overkill for anywhere basically in the US and some other places, but this set up for me is QUIET, FORGIVING and ACCURATE for me! My choice, my setup and it works!

                            This also shows that KE can drop but Momentum will still climb.
                            Quoting Mudslinger for clarity...

                            KE is the measure of the BOW'S efficiency. If you look at the total stored energy of the bow (Potential Energy) and the Kinetic Energy of the arrow you can determine the bow's energy efficiency, or performance curve.

                            As you can see in Mudslinger's chart, there is a definite gain through much of the curve, but at some point the efficiency starts to drop; this is when the KE starts to drop. IOW, if you keep using a heavier arrow the efficiency of the bow, the performance curve, starts to drop off.

                            BUT, the arrow is still able to increase in momentum even as the efficiency of the entire system is reduced. That is why momentum should be used to compare arrows and KE used to compare bows.

                            Having said all that, FOC is the most important factor in penetration. In every single paper I've ever read, and I've read most if not all of them, increasing FOC had more to do with a longer wound channel than anything and broadhead design had more to do with breaking bone than anything.

                            Using Mudslinger's chart above I would opt for the 510 gr arrow with 91.25 KE and 16.05 FOC at a MINIMUM for this bow. This arrow will kill anything in North America with the right broadhead.

                            In study after study we see that higher FOC means a longer wound channel when arrow weight stays the same, so I tend to build a higher FOC arrow; in the 20% range.

                            To answer HighwayHunter's questions: Build a heavier arrow with 17%+ FOC and don't worry about speed. Higher FOC will also increase the arrows mass and get momentum up; use a good broadhead and you can kill anything in North America.

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