Red Wolf?

[BitBackShot]

look close at the colors the black is almost exact the red on the legs is the same and look at the muzzle look how the red color comes down in a triangle shape on both animals.
that dog weighed right at 60 lbs
And realize I'm not saying it's a 100% red wolf they are all cross breeds but the ones at my place are way more wolf than coyote like those scrubby little things running round south texas.

Yeah, they probably have some dog in them in addition to coyote.

[Dave]

If this mammalogy prof was at A&M(Honeycutt), he is an expert in Canid genetics...... And worked with the other researchers at UCLA(Bob Wayne's group). So he knows of what he speaks

Dr. Honeycutt would also tell you that the red wolf, Canis rufus, isn't even a true species and should be lumped in with the Grey wolves, Canis lupis. There isn't enough genetic difference between the two and with the only differences between the two being phenotype and with such huge phenotype variation in the species already that isn't enough to name it a species. But he was a lumper and enjoyed pissing off endangered species folks by telling them their species didn't exist in the first place.

The problem with arguing species variation in candid is they have a huge difference in appearance between them. It's an extreme example brought on by man's interaction but look at our dogs, Canis lupis familiaris, a variety of the Grey wolf. A Chihuahua and a Great Pyrenees are the same species of animal that we have breed to look dramatically different.

Time and different environmental interactions can do the same thing. Add to that the known cross breeding with Coyote, Canis latrans, and you have a very different animal in appearance but not a different species.

[meltingfeather]

they're everywhere!!

[PondPopper]

Dr. Honeycutt would also tell you that the red wolf, Canis rufus, isn't even a true species and should be lumped in with the Grey wolves, Canis lupis. There isn't enough genetic difference between the two and with the only differences between the two being phenotype and with such huge phenotype variation in the species already that isn't enough to name it a species. But he was a lumper and enjoyed pissing off endangered species folks by telling them their species didn't exist in the first place.

The problem with arguing species variation in candid is they have a huge difference in appearance between them. It's an extreme example brought on by man's interaction but look at our dogs, Canis lupis familiaris, a variety of the Grey wolf. A Chihuahua and a Great Pyrenees are the same species of animal that we have breed to look dramatically different.

Time and different environmental interactions can do the same thing. Add to that the known cross breeding with Coyote, Canis latrans, and you have a very different animal in appearance but not a different species.

So how would he explain the size difference? Coyotes do not get 60-70+ lbs unless it is a freak example.. Is he saying its a grey wolf/coyote cross?
If that the case why is the size such a dominant gene trait. And why do so many "red wolves", the ones that are in captivity, look exactly the same without much variation?
For this to happen I would think that the percentages of both species would have to be a constant..

[PondPopper]

they're everywhere!!

Where did you read that? Lol

[meltingfeather]

Where did you read that? Lol

skimming this thread.

[Phillip Fields]

My Mammalogy prof was confident that the Red Wolf had all but been eliminated through hunting and inbreeding with the yote. This was back in the late 80s. I guess you never know.

There's a big difference between saying "they had all but been eliminated" and "they have been eliminated". Sounds to me like the prof was leaving himself some wiggle room just in case.

[PondPopper]

There's a big difference between saying "they had all but been eliminated" and "they have been eliminated". Sounds to me like the prof was leaving himself some wiggle room just in case.

And they also say extinct and extremely endangered at the same time..
Can't be both..

[Dave]

So how would he explain the size difference? Coyotes do not get 60-70+ lbs unless it is a freak example.. Is he saying its a grey wolf/coyote cross?
If that the case why is the size such a dominant gene trait. And why do so many "red wolves", the ones that are in captivity, look exactly the same without much variation?
For this to happen I would think that the percentages of both species would have to be a constant..

Size difference is easy to explain, there are outliers in every population. Also keep in mind when talking about genetics, you can't think in percentages, humans are a 99% match with Chimpanzees. We are talking about very small, very specific differences in alleles, parts of genes, that make up the difference. And yes there is a lot of debate among scientist about this very topic and what a species is and what differentiates them. The old standard of can they produce viable offspring and look similar doesn't fit anymore.

[Dave]

There's a big difference between saying "they had all but been eliminated" and "they have been eliminated". Sounds to me like the prof was leaving himself some wiggle room just in case.

Also remember scientist don't talk in absolutes. A fact is a theory that hasn't been proven wrong yet. Even the base laws of physics are considered theories, even though we have tested them over and over and can not find a reason to not believe them.

[PondPopper]

Also remember scientist don't talk in absolutes. A fact is a theory that hasn't been proven wrong yet. Even the base laws of physics are considered theories, even though we have tested them over and over and can not find a reason to not believe them.

Scientist may not talk in absolutes but some of our expert TBH bar stool biologist do..
But I wouldn't expect any less. Most have never even shot a deer..

Thank YOU and AggiePHD, and any others for your educated input.. These creatures have always facinated me because I have been fortunate enough to have seen them alive and probably dead. After all I was born, where they live/lived, in 1965.
As for the rest, well it's Christmas. I'll be nice..

[DXT Steve]

1

[DXT Steve]

This!

Not sure why there is so much hate towards the thought of it being a red wolf, or having red wolf genetics in it. Just looking at photographs of red wolfs, this canid shares a strong resemblance with the red wolf. I'm in the wolf camp.

I'm leaning towards agreeing with these folks

Tell me about it! The man shares something extremely interesting and the band wagon, nah saying, know it all's jump right on that. If you can't just enjoy the post, heck, MOVE ON!!!!

[PondPopper]

Tell me about it! The man shares something extremely interesting and the band wagon, nah saying, know it all's jump right on that. If you can't just enjoy the post, heck, MOVE ON!!!!

Ah it's no big deal... Ive been around here plenty long enough to know what was going to happen.. It's a public forum and everybody thinks they are THE expert on something and the bitter truth is half of those "experts" cant skin a deer without help or at all for that matter...
It is what it is..

[cwbow]

Also bloodline on Galveston island. Check it out. Good read.