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    Arrow spin

    THE GYROSCOPE MYTH

    The behaviour of spinning objects is complicated. Spinning objects behave in a way that seem at odds with 'normal common sense'. When you put one end of your toy gyroscope on top of your Eiffel tower instead of falling down it goes round and round. Weird! All sorts of anti-gravity and perpetual motion machines have been invented based on using gyroscopes. (unfortunately they don't work).

    The common gyroscope myth is that if you spin something (arrows included) then you get 'gyroscopic stabilisation' i.e. the object stays steadily pointing in the same direction. There are things around called 'gyroscopic compasses' and bullets are spun with rifled barrels to confuse the issue.

    In reality when you spin a free flying object it 'destabilises' it and makes it wobble about.

    Toss a pencil from one hand to the other, trying not to impart revolution to it with your hand. The pencil stays more or less pointing in a constant direction. Now do the same only this time spin the pencil between your fingers as you release it. The pencil ends up corkscrewing around all over the place. - gyroscopic de-stabilisation!

    Gyroscopic 'de-stabilisation' occurs significantly where you have a torque applied to the spinning object (this is how the gyro/Eiffel tower toy works, gravity supplies the torque and so the object goes round and round in circles). With arrows you fit fletchings to provide a torque to straighten the arrow up (stabilise it if you like). The most important effect the fletchings have as regards arrow groups is removing any rotation (angular momentum normal to the shaft axis) the arrow has when it leaves the bow. The faster this is done the smaller the change in arrow flight direction and hence the smaller the arrow groups. Because of the fletching torque the gyroscopic effect in principle tries to make the arrow revolve like the gyro toy. Any spin acts against the fletching action in stabilising the arrow and so any spin will have detrimental effect on arrow group sizes.

    The problem of spin destabilisation of an arrow has been reported many times in books, articles etc. It is often incorrectly described as the arrow flight becoming "unstable" from losing too much speed at longer distances - "the excessive drag story". The result is that the increase in the size of arrow groups at longer distances being larger than the general trend. A better explanation, which does not require re-writing Newtons laws of motion, is in terms of the arrow spin to speed ratio. As the arrow travels its speed drops and the spin rate increases so the spin/speed ratio increases. If this ratio becomes too large then the arrow will start to weave around as the gyroscopic effect on the arrow (higher with higher spin rate) is no longer dominated by the fletching torque on the arrow (which drops as the speed drops). This effect usually has a catastrophic effect because as the arrow starts weaving it loses speed at an even higher rate so it weaves even more and so on - a runaway effect. Visually the arrow appears to fly quite nicely for 70 metes or so and then goes haywire. A related phenomenon is the arrow that appears to fly straight most of the way and then appears to start fishtailing. Again this not due to the arrow becoming unstable at lower speed. How much an arrow fishtails (it's amplitude) depends on the arrow speed. As the arrow speed drops the fishtailing amplitude increases.

    Last Revision 1 July 2009

    Joe tapley

    #2
    Can we possible over-complicate archery anymore? No, I don't think its possible!

    Comment


      #3
      can you go shoot some bare shaft groups with your bow at distances beyond 100 yards with good video and post them for us?

      Comment


        #4
        Guys I posted this because it was interesting.

        Traildust. Yes some of it can be over complicated. But I like over complicated. I have not got to where I'm at with the knowledge I have learnd about archery and have shared with every one on this sight with out looking at the over complicated part.

        If that bothers you then I'm sorry. But I feel to become a great archer you should become knowledgeable about every aspect of it. I'm not there. Far from it. But I learn something everyday.

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          #5
          Originally posted by xman59 View Post
          can you go shoot some bare shaft groups with your bow at distances beyond 100 yards with good video and post them for us?
          Not me. Last time I shot a bare shaft at 100. I lost my arrow. Bad thing I thought it was a fluke. Till I lost the second arrow.

          Comment


            #6
            Everything in physics is a compromise...

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by Rat View Post
              Everything in physics is a compromise...
              Yes it is.

              I like finding and reading things like this. Gets me to thinking and testing. Gets me just a little closer to being a better tuner.


              Just don't get much talk here on Tbh anymore. I got a new place just starting up. I may see what it's like.

              I'm always up for learning something new.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by enewman View Post
                Yes it is.

                I like finding and reading things like this. Gets me to thinking and testing. Gets me just a little closer to being a better tuner.


                Just don't get much talk here on Tbh anymore. I got a new place just starting up. I may see what it's like.

                I'm always up for learning something new.
                I always enjoy your posts, even when I don't agree or they confuse the hek out of me. It is getting as bad as Facebook around here.
                And I will keep my spin, thank you very much.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Why is a knuckle ball (less spin) more unstable than a fast ball (more spin)?


                  J/K....

                  I understand what they are saying, however, unless you are shooting at extremely long distances, it seems to be a moot point.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by CastAndBlast View Post
                    Why is a knuckle ball (less spin) more unstable than a fast ball (more spin)?


                    J/K....

                    I understand what they are saying, however, unless you are shooting at extremely long distances, it seems to be a moot point.
                    It seems that a bullet and gyroscope both become more erratic as the spin rate decreases .

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Rat View Post
                      Everything in archery is a compromise...

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Keep posting man. I don't necessarily want to get as deep in the weeds as you get sometimes but I enjoy learning from what you post and thinking about things in different ways.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Hydestik View Post
                          It seems that a bullet and gyroscope both become more erratic as the spin rate decreases .
                          ...or increases.

                          As with anything there is a point of diminishing returns. As the amount of torque and momentum (spin) increase past a certain point in relation to the mass, the system tends to become unstable.

                          Heavier bullets can be spun at a higher rate because they have a higher mass. This is why heavier bullets can have a higher twist rate in the barrel. But shoot a lighter bullet and you get crazy groups from the same high twist barrel.

                          Following this logic one should be able to fletch heavy arrows with a much more aggressive offset/helical than light arrows. This would increase the rate of spin and help stabilize the arrow both quicker and for a longer distance.

                          However, much more research would need to be done to figure out where that point is for a heavy and a light arrow. I am willing to bet though, that at the velocities and the mass we as archers are dealing with (low velocity high mass), it doesn't matter as much as it does with bullets (low mass and high velocity).

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Some folks are **** about speed, some about tuning, some about BHs, some about wraps, some about vane color matching string color matching wrist strap color matching camo, and some are just ****.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Rat View Post
                              ...or increases.

                              As with anything there is a point of diminishing returns. As the amount of torque and momentum (spin) increase past a certain point in relation to the mass, the system tends to become unstable.

                              Heavier bullets can be spun at a higher rate because they have a higher mass. This is why heavier bullets can have a higher twist rate in the barrel. But shoot a lighter bullet and you get crazy groups from the same high twist barrel.

                              Following this logic one should be able to fletch heavy arrows with a much more aggressive offset/helical than light arrows. This would increase the rate of spin and help stabilize the arrow both quicker and for a longer distance.

                              However, much more research would need to be done to figure out where that point is for a heavy and a light arrow. I am willing to bet though, that at the velocities and the mass we as archers are dealing with (low velocity high mass), it doesn't matter as much as it does with bullets (low mass and high velocity).
                              with an arrow some of the destabilizing comes from the lack of perfectly evenly spaced fletching, over distance it is magnified.. another reason is because of the shaft itself being flexible, he rear wants to spin as soon at he air takes hold of the fletching assuming helical is applied, but the front is not receiving the exact same influence so it tends to lag behind at least for awhile, the shaft flexing in flight also creates uneven drag over the fletching..... for those who play golf if you have a fast swing speed and a "soft shaft" the outcome is a slice because the shaft twists as it flexes through the swing, allowing the far end of the club face to drag behind during the swing,,, same thing with an arrow but to a much smaller degree, making it so very hard to ever see, even with good video equipment, the golf club moves at a much slower speed than the arrow, and the weight distribution magnifies the flex and twist,,,,

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