real g.i. janes

[Sneaky]

Having been in combat and spending almost 8 years in grunt units I'll go ahead and say I don't want women fighting next to me. It will completely change the dynamics of a grunt unit. The military is not a social experiment folks. How many failed Ranger school? Not a single woman officer passed the Marine Corps Infantry Officer Course and I don't believe a single female Marine passed the Marines Corps enlisted infantry school. The number who'll actually sign up and then successfully pass the schools, while still meeting the same standards are too few for this to be a priority. Again, the military is to fight wars, kill the enemy, not a petri dish for social experiments.

Having said that, my hat's off to these women, they absolutely accomplished something.

There was a time not long ago when the formation of the Tuskegee Airmen occurred, where integration was met with similar denigration.

[Killer]

It doesnt necesarily have to do with sexual attraction. Its exactly as you said, "sister" in arms. The way a big brother looks out after his sister is not the same as his brother. He will not have his eye or his mind on his AO when an attack occurs. He will be thinking of her safety and compromising the safety of others. Not sure if you ever servered in a combat unit or not but it has been this way for some time and has worked out just fine. This will not. The other big issue with women in combat is feminine hygeine. All I need to give you is a rifle, a cleaning kit, ammo, water and MREs and I can leave you in a fox hole for ever. A woman needs much much more to keep her self infection free.

Spot on this man knows what he is talking about!!

[Stoof]

Read the book "Ashley's War".
These woman proved their mission effectiveness and roles years ago. CST Teams are still regularly attached to Special Forces units.
No they do not provide direct combat role but are a pertinent part of each mission and required to hold their own and keep up. These woman are also highly respected by their peers for the role they play on teams.
I don't really have a dog in this fight. But if my daughter one day came to me and said she wanted to push it as far as she could go in the military, I would support her 100%.

[krisw]

Tough titty. Male soldiers need to realize that a female soldier is not a temptation or a distraction, but their sister-in-arms.

This is the same logic that schools use when trying to enforce 19th century dress code on young women because it's "distracting" to boys.

Nothing like seeing the government risk lives and millions to save women that have been captured in combat because of what awaits them.

Having been in combat and spending almost 8 years in grunt units I'll go ahead and say I don't want women fighting next to me. It will completely change the dynamics of a grunt unit. The military is not a social experiment folks. How many failed Ranger school? Not a single woman officer passed the Marine Corps Infantry Officer Course and I don't believe a single female Marine passed the Marines Corps enlisted infantry school. The number who'll actually sign up and then successfully pass the schools, while still meeting the same standards are too few for this to be a priority. Again, the military is to fight wars, kill the enemy, not a petri dish for social experiments.

Having said that, my hat's off to these women, they absolutely accomplished something.

Absolutely true. But that's the reason why the women are getting a shot. Can't have any feeling hurt.

[krisw]

There was a time not long ago when the formation of the Tuskegee Airmen occurred, where integration was met with similar denigration.

That's a laughable comparison. Blacks and whites are pretty much the same. Men and women, not as much.

[Sneaky]

That's a laughable comparison. Blacks and whites are pretty much the same. Men and women, not as much.

There was a time very recently where claiming "blacks and whites are pretty much the same" would have been met with furor. Secondly, they *are* the same - just like Asians and Hispanics are the same. We're all people.

There will soon be a time where female integration into all armed forced roles will be proven as successful and the age prior to said integration will be looked back on with disdain.

[RLUM]

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[chongo]

There was a time very recently where claiming "blacks and whites are pretty much the same" would have been met with furor. Secondly, they *are* the same - just like Asians and Hispanics are the same. We're all people.

There will soon be a time where female integration into all armed forced roles will be proven as successful and the age prior to said integration will be looked back on with disdain.

There are significant difference between men and women, we're not the same. Physiological and responses to stress.

Of course there is always the exception but far and away, women do not meet the standards established for the male counterparts in combat roles. I'm curious Sneaky, have you ever served in the infantry, have you ever seen combat? If you have I'm very surprised by your responses but I'd be willing to wager you've not which is exactly the problem with these sort of policy decisions. They are created by folks who've never been shot at, by people who've never had to drag their brother who just got shot out of the entry way of a house carrying 70lbs + of gear. Not to mention unit cohesion. We had women attached to us during Dec/Jan of 04/05 in Fallujah, it absolutely affected our operations and we could not wait for them to go back to Camp Fallujah every night. Were they professional, yes. Were they good at what they were doing, yes. Did we want them with us in a gun fight covering our 6, nope. Ideals are great but just like a plan, it never survives the first shot and when we're dealing with the lives of those who've sworn to defend us, it's not a freaking game.

[kck]

No doubt these women are in great shape and extremely tough, both mentally and physically but do they have the capability to pick up a 200 lb. injured soldier over their back and haul him and herself to safety? My wife is in EXTREMELY good shape (run 5 miles, lift, crossfit, the whole shootin match) and she told me that there's no way in hell she'd be able to tackle what a man could that's in comparable shape.

[stxcowboy]

the problem i have with this is there taking up slots that combat arms males could have that could use these skills in combat. And if you think they were not given a pass on some skills that the males did't your badly mistaken. After being a instructor at several Army schools and your told you can fail all the males you want but your told you can't fail but x amount of females.

[krisw]

There are significant difference between men and women, we're not the same. Physiological and responses to stress.

Of course there is always the exception but far and away, women do not meet the standards established for the male counterparts in combat roles. I'm curious Sneaky, have you ever served in the infantry, have you ever seen combat? If you have I'm very surprised by your responses but I'd be willing to wager you've not which is exactly the problem with these sort of policy decisions. They are created by folks who've never been shot at, by people who've never had to drag their brother who just got shot out of the entry way of a house carrying 70lbs + of gear. Not to mention unit cohesion. We had women attached to us during Dec/Jan of 04/05 in Fallujah, it absolutely affected our operations and we could not wait for them to go back to Camp Fallujah every night. Were they professional, yes. Were they good at what they were doing, yes. Did we want them with us in a gun fight covering our 6, nope. Ideals are great but just like a plan, it never survives the first shot and when we're dealing with the lives of those who've sworn to defend us, it's not a freaking game.

exactly. I don't personally know any combat vets that think women being on the front is a good idea

[Ætheling]

From a Female War Vet, couldnt have said it better myself.


Jude Eden January 26, 2013 at 4:19pm

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It’s not all about qualification. I’m speaking as a female Marine Iraq war vet who did serve in the combat zone doing entry checkpoint duty in Fallujah, and we worked with the grunts daily for that time. All the branches still have different standards for females and males. Why? Because most women wouldn’t even qualify to be in the military if they didn’t have separate standards. Men and women are different, but those pushing women into combat don’t want to admit that truth. They huff and puff about how women can do whatever men can do, but it just ain’t so. We’re built differently, and it doesn’t matter that one particular woman could best one particular man. The best woman is still no match for the best man, and most of the men she’d be fireman-carrying off the battlefield will be at least 100 lbs heavier than her with their gear on.

Women are often great shooters but can’t run in 50-80 lbs of gear as long, hard, or fast as men. Military training is hard enough on men’s bodies; it’s harder on women’s. And until women stop menstruating, there will always be an uphill battle for staying level and strong at all times. No one wants to talk about the fact that in the days before a woman’s cycle, she loses half her strength, to say nothing of the emotional ups and downs that affect judgment. And how would you like fighting through PMS symptoms while clearing a town or going through a firefight? Then there are the logistics of making all the accommodations for women in the field, from stopping the convoy to pee or because her cycle started to stripping down to get hosed off after having to go into combat with full MOP gear when there’s a biological threat.
This is to say nothing of unit cohesion, which is imperative and paramount, especially in the combat fields. When preparing for battle, the last thing on your mind should be sex; but you put men and women in close quarters together, and human nature is what it is (this is also why the repeal of DADT is so damaging). It doesn’t matter what the rules are. The Navy proved that when they started allowing women on ship. What happened? They were having sex and getting pregnant, ruining unit cohesion (not to mention derailing the operations because they’d have to change course to get them off ship.)

When I deployed, we’d hardly been in the country a few weeks before one of our females had to be sent home because she’d gotten pregnant (nice waste of training, not to mention taxpayer money that paid for it). That’s your military readiness? Our enemies are laughing – “Thanks for giving us another vulnerability, USA!”

Then there are relationships. Whether it’s a consensual relationship, unwanted advances, or sexual assault, they all destroy unit cohesion. No one is talking about the physical and emotional stuff that goes along with men and women together. A good relationship can foment jealousy and the perception of favoritism. A relationship goes sour, and suddenly one loses faith in the very person who may need to drag one off the field of battle. A sexual assault happens, and a woman not only loses faith in her fellows, but may fear them. A vindictive man paints a woman as easy, and she loses the respect of her peers. A vindictive woman wants to destroy a man’s career with a false accusation (yes, folks, this happens too); and it’s poison to the unit. All this happens before the fighting even begins.

[Terry]

Spent a couple of tours I SE Asia and on occasion we had 5 man teams that went into some ugly places. Generally wanted to get in and out without being detected. To get on a team all had to approve. I was always concerned if someone was forced on a Team there would be a training accident or combat incident. On small teams unit cohesion is paramount. Now are there some females who could make the training, obviously, yes. Would it strengthen the Team, don't know. And to be candid, if I don't know I don't want to risk lives.

[ArmyAg97]

There was a time very recently where claiming "blacks and whites are pretty much the same" would have been met with furor. Secondly, they *are* the same - just like Asians and Hispanics are the same. We're all people.

There will soon be a time where female integration into all armed forced roles will be proven as successful and the age prior to said integration will be looked back on with disdain.

So then women should have to register for the draft as well? We're all equal, right?

[krisw]

They did not lower the standards. They had to pass the female pt test standards of a 18-21 year old like the men have to complete the male pt test in the 18-21 year old bracket. They still had to do the same pull ups, 5 mile run in 40 min and the 12 mile standard in less than 3 hours.

They are Ranger qualified, not actual Rangers. To be a Ranger you have to be in the Ranger Regiment.

Yes, they did lower the standards. The standards for women are lower. Plain and simple.

And make no mistake about it, the media and Army will be claiming them as Rangers. Civilians won't know the difference.