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Old 02-06-2018, 09:23 PM   #1
huntinfool
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Default Setting up an ILF bow.

So I'm new to traditional archery.
I recently purchased a Hoyt riser and Black Max II limbs. I'm trying to get the bow tuned up and ready to shoot.

Initially when I got the bow the limb bolts were turned out some.

Here you can see how far they were out.


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Old 02-06-2018, 09:25 PM   #2
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So I loosened up the bolts on the back of the riser and turned the limb bolts in.

They won't turn any more, but the limbs aren't touching the riser all the way.
Is this normal?


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Old 02-06-2018, 09:27 PM   #3
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My brace height is just under 8.25 and the tiller is almost equal at 6.5 on the top and 6 5/8 on the bottom.


So, what do I do now?

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Old 02-06-2018, 09:28 PM   #4
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Thatís not how they work if you shoot it like that it will break your limbs. You need to have play in them. I recommend doing a google search on ilf basics and looking at trad talk etc. I wouldnít mind typing it out but there are so much better resources available and itís a lot to type.


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Old 02-06-2018, 09:30 PM   #5
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It appears as those have stops on them it might not bind the limbs but canít tell from pictures.


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Old 02-06-2018, 09:30 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Dkincaid View Post
Thatís not how they work if you shoot it like that it will break your limbs. You need to have play in them. I recommend doing a google search on ilf basics and looking at trad talk etc. I wouldnít mind typing it out but there are so much better resources available and itís a lot to type.


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How much play? There is a gap between the limb and the riser.

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Old 02-06-2018, 09:31 PM   #7
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It appears as those have stops on them it might not bind the limbs but canít tell from pictures.


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What do you need to see? I can take pictures.

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Old 02-06-2018, 09:37 PM   #8
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It looks like an excel or similar riser which has stops. Iíd recommend backing them one turn out from bottom and see if the limb will rock back and forth easily. If there is no bind and it rocks smooth with no bind you can string. Use a bow square to measure the distance from the limb where it meets the riser to the string on both limbs. If it is the same that is even tiller which I shoot three under with. If itís not you can unstrung and adjust it or explore other tiller settings. You will also want to set your brace height by measuring from the throat of your grip to sting and adjust that by twisting your string. Iím guessing 8Ē will get you close.


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Old 02-06-2018, 09:41 PM   #9
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I believe that on that riser you can safely back the bolts out three full turns which should give you around 10% weight adjustment. Check the owners manual to be for sure itís been years since I owned a Hoyt excell. I shoot warfs and wood risers now and they donít have stops on the bolts


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Old 02-06-2018, 09:47 PM   #10
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I bought it used, so no owners manual. Bolts were turned out and it was noisy. I'm not getting much draw weight out of it also.
I will try and back them down one turn.and twist my string up to get more brace height.

When you talk about rocking the limbs, is that with it strung or not?

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Old 02-06-2018, 09:52 PM   #11
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The limbs pull out easily and do have a bit of side to side rock where they are before I adjust them


Yes it is a Hoyt excel riser. I guess I need to see if I can find an owners manual online.

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Old 02-06-2018, 09:53 PM   #12
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Unstrung. Iím not sure sure of riser length or limb length but probably 81/4 or 81/2 brace height.


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Old 02-06-2018, 09:54 PM   #13
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Brace height and limb tiller will cause noise issues as well as arrows that are too light or strings that are too heavy etc.


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Old 02-06-2018, 10:05 PM   #14
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I think the limbs are good where they are, but I could turn them out a bit. I need to increase the brace height a bit so I can twist the string. Do I want an even tiller or a slightly offset tiller. I was told that I want the upper limb to be a bit more than the bottom. Up to 1/4". However I am trying to start shooting three under instead of split. So perhaps I do want even.

Tried to find the owners manual online. I found several, but none that look the same.

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Old 02-06-2018, 10:12 PM   #15
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I like an even tiller but thatís just what I found that works best for me. Those limb bolts make it pretty easy I donít think you can over tighten them just make sure not to back out more than three full turns from bottom. Iíd give even a try and then you can try a offset tiller. The fun of the ilf is the tinkering that you can do. Just make sure you have the brace over 8 and not higher than 9. Somewhere in there will be a sweet spot where it will get quieter and feel better on the shot.


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Old 02-06-2018, 10:16 PM   #16
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The Excel riser (as well as many other) are designed to keep you from torquing the limbs all the way down at the butts. What you have there is normal, and the way it should be.

The tiller is good at 1/8" offset. The only problem is the offset is positive to the wrong end. You want the tiller to be even, or greater on the top. Not greater on the bottom.
Some folks shoot with a negative tiller like that, but it don't work well for most.

Before changing/adjusting the limb bolts any more, try swapping the limbs.
Put the one on top now on the bottom, and the one on bottom now on the top.
That may get the tiller where it should be. If not, you'l just have to do it with the bolts.

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Old 02-07-2018, 06:53 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by RickBarbee View Post
The Excel riser (as well as many other) are designed to keep you from torquing the limbs all the way down at the butts. What you have there is normal, and the way it should be.

The tiller is good at 1/8" offset. The only problem is the offset is positive to the wrong end. You want the tiller to be even, or greater on the top. Not greater on the bottom.
Some folks shoot with a negative tiller like that, but it don't work well for most.

Before changing/adjusting the limb bolts any more, try swapping the limbs.
Put the one on top now on the bottom, and the one on bottom now on the top.
That may get the tiller where it should be. If not, you'l just have to do it with the bolts.

Rick
I'll try swapping the limb.
So by turning the limb bolts out a bit I'm increasing the tiller. ( Seem right in my mind)

I've used the bow scale and I'm still not getting 40# yet. I might be at 38# now. What am I doing wrong here? By increasing the brace height will I increase the draw weight too?


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Old 02-07-2018, 08:07 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntinfool View Post
I'll try swapping the limb.
So by turning the limb bolts out a bit I'm increasing the tiller. ( Seem right in my mind)
Turning the limb bolts:
(a) changes draw weight. Bolts out lower. Bolts in higher.
(b) changes brace height. Bolts out higher. Bolts in lower
(d) changes tiller when bolts are moved unevenly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by huntinfool View Post
I've used the bow scale and I'm still not getting 40# yet. I might be at 38# now. What am I doing wrong here?
Once you've swapped the limbs, make sure the bolt are bottomed out, and check it with the scale again, and check the tiller

You aren't doing anything wrong. The limbs are naturally going to be lower in draw weight on the longer riser, but you never know for sure how much until you get everything set.

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By increasing the brace height will I increase the draw weight too?
Not really. It raises the draw weight a tiny bit, but not anywhere near the amount you're looking for.

Rick
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Old 02-07-2018, 08:21 AM   #19
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Turning the limb bolts:
(a) changes draw weight. Bolts out lower. Bolts in higher.
(b) changes brace height. Bolts out higher. Bolts in lower
(d) changes tiller when bolts are moved unevenly.



Once you've swapped the limbs, make sure the bolt are bottomed out, and check it with the scale again, and check the tiller

You aren't doing anything wrong. The limbs are naturally going to be lower in draw weight on the longer riser, but you never know for sure how much until you get everything set.



Not really. It raises the draw weight a tiny bit, but not anywhere near the amount you're looking for.

Rick
Thank you, that all makes sense.

So since I bought this used, I didn't get a choice of which riser. What are the benefits of a longer riser vs. a shorter one?


If I'm not going to get the weight I'd like out of this set up I guess I need to know if I'd be better buying a shorter riser or heavier limbs.

Thanks again for everyone's input.

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Old 02-07-2018, 08:46 AM   #20
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Shortening the riser only raises the draw weight by an average of 1.5# per inch.

The riser you have now is a 21", and I'm pretty sure your limbs are mediums resulting in a 64" AMO length bow.

What you do depends on what length bow you want to have.

A shorter riser will increase draw weight, but obviously will shorten the length of the bow, and only increase the weight by about 3# per riser length incremental decrease.

Getting heavier limbs of the same length you have now will increase the draw weight without changing the length of the bow.

It also depends on how much cash you want to drop. Generally speaking, you can get a good set of limbs for much less than the cost of a good riser. The SF Axiom limbs are pretty decent limbs, and run around $100 a set.

When purchasing limbs, you need to pay close attention to what riser length the draw weight is rated on, then order limbs by adding, or deducting weight according to the length of riser they are going on. I'll follow this with an example.

Example:
If limbs are rated as 40# on a 19" riser, they will (generally speaking) only be 37# on a 21" riser, so if you are going to put them on a 21" riser, and want a weight of 40#, you would need to get 43# limbs.

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Old 02-07-2018, 08:49 AM   #21
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Developing your form and muscle memory on the blower draw weight might help you.

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Old 02-07-2018, 09:00 AM   #22
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Thank you, that all makes sense.

So since I bought this used, I didn't get a choice of which riser. What are the benefits of a longer riser vs. a shorter one?


If I'm not going to get the weight I'd like out of this set up I guess I need to know if I'd be better buying a shorter riser or heavier limbs.

Thanks again for everyone's input.

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Longer risers are generally more stable. It's why target archers use them. I like my hunting bows in the 58-60" range so I chose a 17" riser. But as Rick said that longer riser is going to be lighter in draw weight, you aren't doing anything wrong. It's "generally" +- 1-1.5lb for each inch you gain or lose past 17" risers where most TradTech limbs are rated. Looking at Lancaster I see the Excel is available in 21 or 23", which is yours? If it's 23 that could explain why you are seeing 38#.

Rick has given you a lot of solid advice, I am not going to be redundant by repeating it.

Here is the link to the Hoyt Recurve manuals. It might get confusing because Hoyt rates draw length on a longer riser than TradTech does. Since you aren't using Hoyt limbs you need to follow the TradTech riser length to draw weight information.

https://hoyt.com/support/manuals/tag/recurve
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Old 02-07-2018, 09:41 PM   #23
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Riser is 21"

I changed the limbs top to bottom and it was worse than before. So I swapped them back and turned the top limb bolts out a couple. Did my measurements and the brace height was pretty short, so I added some twists to the string and adjusted the top limb bolts and here is where I wound up.

Brace height is 8.75

Top limb tiller is 7.25

Bottom limb tiller is 7

I measured the draw weight again.

39#

Now from what Rick Barbee said, I probably want the brace height at 8.25"

Which means that I'll have to take a few twists out of the string.

I'm realizing that the string I have is not the original. However I don't think that is affecting anything.

I'm not sure if I'm on the right track or not.

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Old 02-07-2018, 09:46 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntinfool View Post
Riser is 21"

I changed the limbs top to bottom and it was worse than before. So I swapped them back and turned the top limb bolts out a couple. Did my measurements and the brace height was pretty short, so I added some twists to the string and adjusted the top limb bolts and here is where I wound up.

Brace height is 8.75

Top limb tiller is 7.25

Bottom limb tiller is 7

I measured the draw weight again.

39#

Now from what Rick Barbee said, I probably want the brace height at 8.25"

Which means that I'll have to take a few twists out of the string.

I'm realizing that the string I have is not the original. However I don't think that is affecting anything.

I'm not sure if I'm on the right track or not.

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Crank the top limb back down until the tiller measurement is about 1/16" more on top, than on bottom.

You'll probably be 40# or a little more then.

The 8.75" brace height is ok. That's where I shot mine, but at your draw length 8.25 to 8.5 might suit you better.

You're doing fine.

Rick
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Old 02-07-2018, 09:49 PM   #25
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Makes me glad I don't have a set up like those. I'm not that smart.

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Old 02-07-2018, 09:52 PM   #26
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Makes me glad I don't have a set up like those. I'm not that smart.

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I know Rick is just hyper accurate with his but reading all that made my head swim a bit. LOL, I've got too many other things that aren't adjusted right with my form to worry about tillers and things.


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Old 02-07-2018, 09:57 PM   #27
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Makes me glad I don't have a set up like those. I'm not that smart.

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I have adjusted tiller, center cut, and reshaped the grips on almost every bow I ever owned by grinding, rasping, and sanding on the limbs & risers, and handles.

I've always made the bow be, and fit the way I wanted it to, except for the real expensive ones, and I didn't do it on them, because I didn't want to devalue them, and wound up getting rid of them eventually anyway, because they didn't shoot any better than my less expensive bows.

ILF just makes it much easier to make a bow fit me they way I want to.

Rick
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Old 02-07-2018, 10:04 PM   #28
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Took the brace height down to 8.25"
Top limb tiller is 6.5"
Bottom limb tiller is 6.75"

#42

Took it outside ( rain, cold and dark and I really wanted to try it...lol!)

Shots were touching and the only sound I heard was the string twang.

So now to figure out how you made the string silencers.

I saw the video on how to install them, just not how you got them like they were, when they were ready to be installed.

I picked up some yarn, but I think it might be a bit small. Still going to give it a try.

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Old 02-07-2018, 10:10 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntinfool View Post
Took the brace height down to 8.25"
Top limb tiller is 6.5"
Bottom limb tiller is 6.75"

#42

Took it outside ( rain, cold and dark and I really wanted to try it...lol!)

Shots were touching and the only sound I heard was the string twang.

So now to figure out how you made the string silencers.

I saw the video on how to install them, just not how you got them like they were, when they were ready to be installed.

I picked up some yarn, but I think it might be a bit small. Still going to give it a try.

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Looks like you're getting there.

Here's a video on how I do my string silencers.

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Rick
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Old 02-07-2018, 10:14 PM   #30
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Love the enthusiasm.

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Old 02-07-2018, 10:27 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by RickBarbee View Post
Looks like you're getting there.

Here's a video on how I do my string silencers.

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Rick
That's what I needed. Got one in the works now. Thanks!

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Old 02-08-2018, 06:53 AM   #32
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Didn't have the fancy jig, but I made a couple of silencers last night. Need to pound them flat and install. Hopefully get to do that tonight.

I had to play plumber last night so I didn't have much time to work on anything else.

I think I'm finally going in the right direction.
Now if I could just have some daylight when I get home....
Lol

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Old 02-08-2018, 09:20 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntinfool View Post
Took the brace height down to 8.25"
Top limb tiller is 6.5"
Bottom limb tiller is 6.75"

#42

Took it outside ( rain, cold and dark and I really wanted to try it...lol!)

Shots were touching and the only sound I heard was the string twang.

So now to figure out how you made the string silencers.

I saw the video on how to install them, just not how you got them like they were, when they were ready to be installed.

I picked up some yarn, but I think it might be a bit small. Still going to give it a try.

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Looking at those tiller measurements, you still have negative tiller. The top limb measurement needs to be larger than the bottom limb measurement to achieve positive tiller. Make it 1/8" bigger in the top.

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Old 02-08-2018, 09:21 AM   #34
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I'm going to go out in the shop and look around, I might have the manual out there.

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Old 02-08-2018, 09:25 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huntinfool View Post
Took the brace height down to 8.25"
Top limb tiller is 6.5"
Bottom limb tiller is 6.75"

#42
I don't mean to sound critical, but your tiller is backwards. Most ILF limbs are designed for zero or up to 1/8" positive tiller. Not a 1/4" negative tiller like you have. This because even if the grips of our bows are in the center, the arrows are above center due the shelf being above our grips. So in relation to the arrow the lower limb is essentially longer. So the lower limb needs to be slightly stiffer to keep the limbs in time.

What is your nock height with the way you have things? Shoot a bareshaft with your fletched shafts and see how they compare if you haven't yet. I could be wrong, we all shoot differently. But once you put a fixed blade broadhead on (if you plan to hunt) and if you have things too far out out of whack, accuracy problems are going to show up in relation to your field points. Fletching corrects tuning issues where bareshafts and broadheads show them clearly.
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Old 02-08-2018, 09:53 AM   #36
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Is it possible you have two upper or two lower limbs?

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Old 02-08-2018, 10:33 AM   #37
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Looking at those tiller measurements, you still have negative tiller. The top limb measurement needs to be larger than the bottom limb measurement to achieve positive tiller. Make it 1/8" bigger in the top.

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Good call!
It was late and I was kind of in a rush. I think I have to change them, unless I typed them wrong. Know more tonight.

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Old 02-08-2018, 10:34 AM   #38
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I'm going to go out in the shop and look around, I might have the manual out there.

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Thanks

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Old 02-08-2018, 10:35 AM   #39
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I don't mean to sound critical, but your tiller is backwards. Most ILF limbs are designed for zero or up to 1/8" positive tiller. Not a 1/4" negative tiller like you have. This because even if the grips of our bows are in the center, the arrows are above center due the shelf being above our grips. So in relation to the arrow the lower limb is essentially longer. So the lower limb needs to be slightly stiffer to keep the limbs in time.

What is your nock height with the way you have things? Shoot a bareshaft with your fletched shafts and see how they compare if you haven't yet. I could be wrong, we all shoot differently. But once you put a fixed blade broadhead on (if you plan to hunt) and if you have things too far out out of whack, accuracy problems are going to show up in relation to your field points. Fletching corrects tuning issues where bareshafts and broadheads show them clearly.
Yeah, I either typed it wrong or in my rush, adjusted them wrong.
I'll figure it out tonight.
Thanks for the info. Very valuable.

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Old 02-08-2018, 10:36 AM   #40
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Is it possible you have two upper or two lower limbs?

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Dunno. I doubt it. The person o bought it from bought it all new, so I'd assume they were a pair...if there is such a thing.

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Old 02-08-2018, 10:51 AM   #41
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Yeah, I missed that the tiller was negative instead of positive, but I was telling him "more" on the top limb.

By the way - ILF, and ILF limbs aren't designed for any specific offset tiller, except a target tiller of dead even.

They are designed so you can tiller the bow to where/how you want it to be.

They actually try to make a set of limbs dead even where it makes no difference which one is top or bottom. Most of the time that's how they are, but sometimes they are a little off, and I have seen multiple times where swapping the limbs top to bottom/bottom to top made the tiller come out closer to even.

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Old 02-08-2018, 10:58 AM   #42
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I know at scout camp sometimes the boys get them mixed up. Not sure how big a difference it made but the instructor acted like it was serious. I was just coaching the boys so . . .

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Old 02-08-2018, 08:31 PM   #43
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Ok, corrected my mistake.

Top tiller is 6.75
Bottom 6.5

#44!

Haven't finished the puffs yet, but they are tied.
Playing with my grand daughter now. Hopefully after I take her home I can get them finished and installed.
I believe I was told this bow has a Flemish string on it. So according to Rick's video I can just put them in the string at the marks.
I think I will go ahead and tie them in, just in case. Hope to have that done tonight.


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Old 02-08-2018, 08:44 PM   #44
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Damian, yes it has a Flemish twist string on it and you don't need to tie your yarn silensors in. They will stay put on their on.

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Old 02-08-2018, 09:21 PM   #45
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Damian, yes it has a Flemish twist string on it and you don't need to tie your yarn silensors in. They will stay put on their on.

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Right on, installing them now.

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Old 02-08-2018, 09:42 PM   #46
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Shot a couple shots. Wow, super quiet. Felt good.

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Old 02-08-2018, 09:43 PM   #47
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Damian, yes it has a Flemish twist string on it and you don't need to tie your yarn silensors in. They will stay put on their on.

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This has not been my experience. When strung maybe but if you unstring the bow . . . Oops!

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Old 02-09-2018, 06:17 AM   #48
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Huntinfool,

I see that you've found the same camo yarn that I have....WallyWorld?

Saves you from having to mix different yarn together. Also, cheap and effective!

Todd
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Old 02-09-2018, 06:56 AM   #49
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Here is a very detailed manual for the TradTech Titan riser. It could be of use for anyone setting up an ILF bow: http://https://www.lancasterarchery....&III_Guide.pdf
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Old 02-09-2018, 03:03 PM   #50
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This has not been my experience. When strung maybe but if you unstring the bow . . . Oops!

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I unstrung mine last night and they stayed right there.

But I do have a Flemish string, so maybe that was the difference.

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