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Old 11-22-2014, 07:06 AM   #201
hoyt21
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Originally Posted by enewman View Post
Year supposed to get the good heads for yourself.

I sure like the way them look

With that head and the arrow muddy built. All I can say is dang.
Yea we got a big exotic hunt coming on jan 1 so I wanted something that hit hard. She shoots those or DRts. The reason I went to solid broad heads is cause the DRts are a little soft the point smashes on bone cause it aluminum. Solids are stainless so they'll take more of a beating. ( I hope ). The DRts are awesome and leave great blood trails. But I like to reuse and re sharpen broad heads. As for me I'll shoot them as well i just have my arrows and sight set up with a 100 gr head. So I shoot the DRts ( with out the collar ) and grizz 2s at around 14-15% foc and it's worked great. After the year I plan on prolly switching to 125s myself to get that little more punch. Wife shoot a 26" chill sdx set @ 46 lbs. that arrow muddy made was a .400 carnivore.

This is the reason I switched spines on her set up and looked for more FOC. THANK GOD SHE HIT THE HEART. given this arrow went through one shoulder and stopped at the other I expected more out of a 17 yard shot with a c.o.c. Head. She was using a .600 spine easton axis at the time. This Is a pic of the penetration she got.
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Old 11-22-2014, 07:26 AM   #202
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So I just get up and I get caught up on my reading.

And.,,,,,,

I have a oh man not another question moment :-(

Sorry.

It might be a moot point but here it is.

A low FOC arrow PUSHES the broadhead through the target.

Now with a High FOC Arrow the Broadhead PULLS the arrow through the target.

I hear you saying "Yes and....?" :-)

Its early and my brains out some where.

I need a stiffer spine arrow. Why?
Because of the static spine or dynamic spine? Or Both?
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Old 11-22-2014, 07:58 AM   #203
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Pushbutton2. It's to early to ask questions. I haven't had my coffee yet.

Okay here is my red neck answer. A arrow that is to weak will flex on impact. This will cause the arrow to whip like the old antenna on a car. This will drastically effect penetration.

Now here is the question. At what point is a arrow to weak and will cause that to happen. ?????? Maybe muddyfuzzy can chime in on that.

I could not sleep this morning so I've been playing with arrows this morning. The arrow is 26.5 in long velocity 300. I have the standard 14gn insert with a 68 gn screw in the back with a 215 gn tip. Foc is 23.95 and arrow is 560 gn. According to ontarget program this arrow is weak.

I have the fletch arrow shooting bullet holes from 6 ft to 19 ft. At 23 ft it has a slight tare. I want do any more tuning till I have 6 arrows then I will tune them to bullet holes from 6 ft to 20 yards. Yes they are fletched.
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Old 11-22-2014, 07:59 AM   #204
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From what we've gather here you need a stiffer spine for the foc you wanting cause your putting so much weight up front it weakens it. Think of it as a fishing pole with all the weight at the tip it bends. And being your such a long draw your shafts have more length to bend with loading up the front. That's why wife's arrows were able to be a softer spine and get that extreme FOC. cause they we're cut down short making the soft spine ( for us ) stiff enough for her. With our high poundage when the string is cut loose the shaft naturally bends. So with you long arrows on the shot your gunna have a lot of bend out out of them shafts if your weak with a lot of weight up front.

Last edited by hoyt21; 11-22-2014 at 08:03 AM.
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Old 11-22-2014, 08:25 AM   #205
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Glad for once im a 27" draw
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Old 11-22-2014, 08:28 AM   #206
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Watch this video, and read the article with it. This is only part of why you need to understand how arrows react to reach your final desired shaft spine and finished weight.

Stiffer shafts recover faster after shot, and resume straight flight.
Stiffer shafts will flex less when shot especially when you have a ridiculous amount of weight up front because you think that is all it takes to get a high FOC.
Stiffer shafts are required especially when you have a very long draw to better absurd the energy released upon them when shot so they do not exceed their safe flexing point, and shatter upon release.

Remember basic physics here. An object at rest(arrow at full draw) will remain at rest until acted upon by an external force(string being released). So the front of the arrow is idle until all of the sudden it has a very large force applied to it from behind. The shaft in the middle has to absorb a large amount of the energy. If you have a weak spine, or an arrow that can not efficiently absorb enough of the energy released upon it, it could break. Or it could diminish the energy applied to it by oscillating all the way to the target. Any way, watch this and see how much the shaft is affected by hitting something as simple as an apple. Now multiply that affect when hide and hair and bones are involved.

Oh and nothing pulls an arrow through anything. It is a propelled device. So high or low FOC, the arrow is still being pushed through what ever it hits, by the retained energy and momentum the shaft carries.

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/hun...er-slow-motion
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Old 11-22-2014, 08:50 AM   #207
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Glad for once im a 27" draw

Yep. 26.5
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Old 11-22-2014, 02:07 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Pushbutton2 View Post
So I just get up and I get caught up on my reading.

And.,,,,,,

I have a oh man not another question moment :-(

Sorry.

It might be a moot point but here it is.

A low FOC arrow PUSHES the broadhead through the target.

Now with a High FOC Arrow the Broadhead PULLS the arrow through the target.

I hear you saying "Yes and....?" :-)

Its early and my brains out some where.

I need a stiffer spine arrow. Why?
Because of the static spine or dynamic spine? Or Both?
I think that a decent analog to how FOC affects arrow penetration is trying to stab an apple with a swizzle stick straw. If you hold the straw towards the back and stab the apple you aren't going to penetrate the apple as well due to the deformation of the straw. If you choke up on the straw (like moving the balance point forward) and stab the apple, you have effectively stiffened the straw and you will have an easier time penetrating the apple.

You want the static spine of your arrow to be close to the calculated dynamic spine of your bow/arrow/point combination

Last edited by JimboBurnsy; 11-22-2014 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 11-22-2014, 02:21 PM   #209
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I think that a decent analog to how FOC affects arrow penetration is trying to stab an apple with a swizzle stick straw. If you hold the straw towards the back and stab the apple you aren't going to penetrate the apple as well due to the deformation of the straw. If you choke up on the straw (like moving the balance point forward) and stab the apple, you have effectively stiffened the straw and you will have an easier time penetrating the apple.

You want the static spine of your arrow to be close to the calculated dynamic spine of your bow/arrow/point combination
Like this :-)
http://youtu.be/8Ewpwylbxec
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Old 11-22-2014, 02:35 PM   #210
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Different mechanism of course...
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Old 11-22-2014, 04:40 PM   #211
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Different mechanism of course...

Of course.

I was reminded of a grade school science lesson by your post.

With out the thumb it didn't have the spine, with the thumb it does. p
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Old 11-22-2014, 11:58 PM   #212
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Sounds like you are right where you need to be.
you know thinking about this again you might want to consider taking a turn out of that bow and ditching the 100's for 125's, just an option.
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Old 11-23-2014, 07:46 AM   #213
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Here is the velocity. I just cannot get them to fly as good as the bloodsport arrows. I'm going to remove some weight and see if I can stiffen them up a little. I will say once I shoot these arrows up I want be buying anymore. This arrow has a 23.95 foc.

Sorry about the mess on the table
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Old 11-23-2014, 08:00 AM   #214
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Do you guys know the formulas for figuring out Momentum and KE? I'm thinking of adding the to my spreadsheet
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Old 11-23-2014, 08:13 AM   #215
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Ke = mass x velocity x velocity / 450240



Momentum =. Mass x velocity / 225418


If you look around there are some slight variations
but this will get you very close

Last edited by enewman; 11-23-2014 at 08:29 AM.
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Old 11-23-2014, 08:34 AM   #216
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Push button I have a question about your spread sheet if I may. I presume the GW column is the gross weight. And you have two arrows that have identical data entered but the FOC is different. How is that possible?

To change that number wouldn't the GW have to be different to make any other variable change? It kinda has me thrown for a loop right now.
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Old 11-23-2014, 08:36 AM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enewman View Post
Ke = mass x velocity x velocity / 450240



Momentum =. Mass x velocity / 225418


If you look around there are some slight variations
but this will get you very close
Thank you!!!
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Old 11-23-2014, 09:03 AM   #218
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Push button I have a question about your spread sheet if I may. I presume the GW column is the gross weight. And you have two arrows that have identical data entered but the FOC is different. How is that possible?

To change that number wouldn't the GW have to be different to make any other variable change? It kinda has me thrown for a loop right now.
I think I saw where the two arrows had different vanes
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Old 11-23-2014, 09:04 AM   #219
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I just updated my spreadsheet. I used the formulas enewman posted. Thank you again!!!

I look a it and my mind almost goes into overload. I think I need to simplify it or condense it. Just not sure what to cut or move....

Another thing I noticed was there wasn't a big jump in KE and MO Numbers like I expected. So now I'm kinda wondering if this has been worth it?
I imagine bowhuntntxn is going to say "Told you so :-p" LOL

Let me see if I can post the PDF version of my spreadsheet.
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File Type: pdf Kyle's Arrow Spreadsheet.pdf (41.3 KB, 210 views)

Last edited by Pushbutton2; 11-23-2014 at 09:25 AM. Reason: Wrong PDF, Reformatted PDF
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Old 11-23-2014, 09:05 AM   #220
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On a positive note I just learned how to post pictures from my PC to TBH :-)
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Old 11-23-2014, 09:16 AM   #221
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Ok I don't see how the expedition and the xt have the same weight but different speeds. Only way that can happen is if the xt is not flying straight.
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Old 11-23-2014, 09:23 AM   #222
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No I am not going to say that. But what I will say is that you gave it a lot of effort, and hopefully learned some things along the way. And that in itself made it worth it IMO.

The reason the numbers for KE and momentum don't make huge jumps, is because they are both dependant on velocity, which is dependant on total weight, which is a function of spine. Meaning to have the right stiffness in spine for you, you will have to jump up the total arrow weight a ton, which in turn will kill the speed, thusly affecting both KE and momentum.
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Old 11-23-2014, 09:23 AM   #223
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Ok I don't see how the expedition and the xt have the same weight but different speeds. Only way that can happen is if the xt is not flying straight.
that's was the speed when I had 40 grains tip weight in it. I just fixed it. I think. Let me quadriple check. :-)

I added 10 grains to the tip and lost 5 fps
but now that i'm thinking about I my weights wrong on it as well
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Old 11-23-2014, 09:24 AM   #224
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I think I saw where the two arrows had different vanes
Then wouldn't that mean there are two different gross weights? Surely the different vanes with the same weight won't affect FOC will it?
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Old 11-23-2014, 09:27 AM   #225
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Then wouldn't that mean there are two different gross weights? Surely the different vanes with the same weight won't affect FOC will it?
I just fixed that. I think.....

I need to get ready for Church. I'll be back on later.
I hope you are going to Church too :-)
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Old 11-23-2014, 09:28 AM   #226
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Pushbotton2.


You won't see that big change till you break that 500 gn mark. And the ke won't change a lot but the momentum will keep going up. I've tested this up to 1080 gn arrow.

There Is a guy on archery talk. That has tested this up to 1500 gn I'll see if I can find that.
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Old 11-23-2014, 09:30 AM   #227
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Then wouldn't that mean there are two different gross weights? Surely the different vanes with the same weight won't affect FOC will it?
Yes something is off just a bit.
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Old 11-23-2014, 09:49 AM   #228
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Ok go to archery report. Find the articles on momentum and ke. Lots of good info and charts.
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Old 11-23-2014, 09:57 AM   #229
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Yes the GW is gross weight.
The 452 number is my heaviest arrow. The lightest was 449 in the XT. I forgot my arrows in the truck last night. I have the weight if each write on a vane
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Old 11-23-2014, 10:56 AM   #230
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you know thinking about this again you might want to consider taking a turn out of that bow and ditching the 100's for 125's, just an option.

Thx, ill ck into it
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Old 11-23-2014, 02:43 PM   #231
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Pushbotton2.


You won't see that big change till you break that 500 gn mark. And the ke won't change a lot but the momentum will keep going up. I've tested this up to 1080 gn arrow.

There Is a guy on archery talk. That has tested this up to 1500 gn I'll see if I can find that.
Thats like 3+X heavier than mine! I'm not sure my bow would even shoot that arrow.....
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Old 11-23-2014, 07:00 PM   #232
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Thats like 3+X heavier than mine! I'm not sure my bow would even shoot that arrow.....
You need to do at least once. You will be amassed at how much energy a bow will put into that arrow.

My 1080 gn still shot 187. Fps. I did think I could run down there and catch it
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Old 11-23-2014, 08:29 PM   #233
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Is the only penalty for overspining additional gross weight and therefore lower velocity?
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Old 11-23-2014, 10:23 PM   #234
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You need to do at least once. You will be amassed at how much energy a bow will put into that arrow.

My 1080 gn still shot 187. Fps. I did think I could run down there and catch it
Holy crap. Siri is not helping with spelling at all. She needs to fix my grammar to
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Old 11-23-2014, 10:24 PM   #235
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Is the only penalty for overspining additional gross weight and therefore lower velocity?
If you have a short draw length and have your bow turned down below about 50 lbs. then you may be able to get so much spine that it's affecting your arrow flight... But I think that the answer is generally "yes"
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Old 11-24-2014, 08:10 AM   #236
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El General
There's this chart

Name:  ImageUploadedByTapatalk1416834666.541590.jpg
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We use it when we walk back tune our bows. It shows a stiff spine reaction.
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Old 11-25-2014, 02:11 PM   #237
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So.
I think I'd like to build 1 - 1000+ grain arrow. Just because :-)
Is it possible?
Can you all give me some recommendations?
I'd like 20%+ FOC as well :-)
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Old 11-25-2014, 02:28 PM   #238
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So.
I think I'd like to build 1 - 1000+ grain arrow. Just because :-)
Is it possible?
Can you all give me some recommendations?
I'd like 20%+ FOC as well :-)
A 32" Grizzly Stick Momentum U-FOC 175 with a 100 grain insert and a 315 grain point/head should weigh in at around 1100 grains and the FOC should be over 20%.
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Old 11-25-2014, 03:47 PM   #239
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Grizzly stick? Is that an arrow?
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Old 11-25-2014, 03:49 PM   #240
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Yes go to alaskabowhunting.com
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Old 11-25-2014, 04:26 PM   #241
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Grizzly stick? Is that an arrow?
Haha this is funny. I had to do it to. I like heavy arrows. Once you do it you will go back to around the 550 mark. But the results are alsume. I still have plans to build a heavy arrow with a broadhead around 350 to 400 gns.
Just got to get some time to doit.

I have a grizzly stick. If I was a rich man that's all I would shoot. That is a bad *** arrow
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Old 11-25-2014, 04:38 PM   #242
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Haha this is funny. I had to do it to. I like heavy arrows. Once you do it you will go back to around the 550 mark. But the results are alsume. I still have plans to build a heavy arrow with a broadhead around 350 to 400 gns.

Just got to get some time to doit.



I have a grizzly stick. If I was a rich man that's all I would shoot. That is a bad *** arrow

Yall are gonna drive Kyle crazy!
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Old 11-25-2014, 04:42 PM   #243
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They also have the 650 grain challenge on the website try it and let us know how it goes. I think they send you a half dozen on grizz sticks to try
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Old 11-25-2014, 05:19 PM   #244
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They also have the 650 grain challenge on the website try it and let us know how it goes. I think they send you a half dozen on grizz sticks to try
http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/650-Challenge-C75.aspx

If you give them your bow stats they will custom build two completed arrows for your setup as close to 650 grains as possible for $50.

I'm thinking about it now...
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Old 11-25-2014, 05:45 PM   #245
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http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/650-Challenge-C75.aspx

If you give them your bow stats they will custom build two completed arrows for your setup as close to 650 grains as possible for $50.

I'm thinking about it now...
Me too lol. I'd look for the biggest baddest boar on our ranch
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Old 11-25-2014, 05:52 PM   #246
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Me too lol. I'd look for the biggest baddest boar on our ranch
Sounds like a good pig shish kabob arrow to me. My best is 4 hogs around 50 or so lbs. fourth did run off with arrow. I didn't even mean to. Just worked out that way
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Old 11-25-2014, 05:55 PM   #247
hoyt21
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Sounds like a good pig shish kabob arrow to me. My best is 4 hogs around 50 or so lbs. fourth did run off with arrow. I didn't even mean to. Just worked out that way


Pics by chance ?

That set up with a single bevel head straight through the " shield " would prolly do some serious work !
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Old 11-25-2014, 06:27 PM   #248
enewman
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No pic but I was shooting the Strickland helix 225 gn head. That is one bad head. When I'm going for my exotics that is the head I use the most.
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Old 11-25-2014, 06:28 PM   #249
hoyt21
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Nothing beats a c.o.c head. IMO
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Old 11-25-2014, 10:41 PM   #250
Loneaggie
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Is the only penalty for overspining additional gross weight and therefore lower velocity?

From a properly tuned bow that's about it.
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