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Old 10-16-2017, 03:10 PM   #51
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As for the original post, my first impression is that of a 3 to 4yo buck with a lot of potential. As some others have already said though, this one pic is not the best to judge from and with better pics it might become obvious that he's actually post-mature.
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Old 10-16-2017, 03:12 PM   #52
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For reasons I just posted, I'd be hard-pressed to believe it was a 200# 3yo. I realize that's not impossible, but given the inaccuracy of their methods it seems more likely that it was probably at least 4yo if not 5.
Circumference and width of the horns nor the neck were consistent with a 4.5 year old.

Besides, I am no expert at aging either. I look more at the brisket, neck, and legs than anything. It will be a learning experience.
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Old 10-16-2017, 03:13 PM   #53
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http://www.deerage.com

Results in my experience are at about 50% when aging on tooth wear alone, the other 50% the tooth wear was wrong. We've done about 20 deer so far in the last few years. Oldest buck was 10.5, oldest doe so far has been 13.5



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This^^^ Tooth wear is the most inaccurate way to age deer, but trying to tell some people that is like, well, pulling teeth
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Old 10-16-2017, 03:22 PM   #54
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Circumference and width of the horns nor the neck were consistent with a 4.5 year old.

Besides, I am no expert at aging either. I look more at the brisket, neck, and legs than anything. It will be a learning experience.
Fair enough, but where was he carrying his weight? His skeletal structure must be pretty large.

On our lease, we have a genetic strain where some of them just have larger skeletons which translates into overall larger body weights at younger ages compared to other bucks in their age class. But, those larger bodied bucks would measure noticeably larger in neck circumference than their same-aged buddies. If you've got 200# 3yos, then that could/should translate into some 5yos and up weighing in at the upper 200s (and possibly occasionally higher), if I remember the averaged growth charts correctly. Are you seeing those weights in those age classes?
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Old 10-16-2017, 03:23 PM   #55
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This^^^ Tooth wear is the most inaccurate way to age deer, but trying to tell some people that is like, well, pulling teeth
But CA testing has only been shown to be marginally better at 61% accuracy, so it's not a fail safe either (or even close).
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Old 10-16-2017, 03:38 PM   #56
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But CA testing has only been shown to be marginally better at 61% accuracy, so it's not a fail safe either (or even close).
I will take an 11% improvement. The point is tooth wear is inaccurate. You figure a deer that is picking food off the ground is gonna have more grit wear than one that doesn't.
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Old 10-16-2017, 03:45 PM   #57
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I will take an 11% improvement. The point is tooth wear is inaccurate. You figure a deer that is picking food off the ground is gonna have more grit wear than one that doesn't.
Improvement yes, but far from a level of accuracy that should be used to determine a fine on a hunter. As I mentioned in the other post, I would advocate for a combination of all methods of aging to get as close as possible to the actual age (while accounting for the innacurracies of each method).
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Old 10-16-2017, 03:55 PM   #58
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Improvement yes, but far from a level of accuracy that should be used to determine a fine on a hunter. As I mentioned in the other post, I would advocate for a combination of all methods of aging to get as close as possible to the actual age (while accounting for the innacurracies of each method).
I agree and that is the fly in the ointment. Its a tool to brow beat some hunters. Now! I think its a decent way to determine an age group, 1-3, 4-8, 9-death, when used with other tools, pictures, body size or condition, health of deer. But a single cure all? No
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Old 10-16-2017, 03:58 PM   #59
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Fair enough, but where was he carrying his weight? His skeletal structure must be pretty large.

On our lease, we have a genetic strain where some of them just have larger skeletons which translates into overall larger body weights at younger ages compared to other bucks in their age class. But, those larger bodied bucks would measure noticeably larger in neck circumference than their same-aged buddies. If you've got 200# 3yos, then that could/should translate into some 5yos and up weighing in at the upper 200s (and possibly occasionally higher), if I remember the averaged growth charts correctly. Are you seeing those weights in those age classes?
My first year on this lease. So, I cannot really say. But, I have seen some large bodied deer on my and others trail cams. Better than average for East Tx for sure.
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Old 10-16-2017, 04:04 PM   #60
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I must admit, this has been a good thread. Thanx Swamp Ranger
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Old 10-16-2017, 04:24 PM   #61
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Mickey Hellickson and others did a study a few years ago that actually showed the accuracy of even the cementum annuli technique is not very accurate. Yes, better than the tooth replacement wear technique, but nowhere close to 85-90%. Relying on these aging techniques to set fines on hunters is a bad idea, IMO.



The overall accuracy rate they found for the cementum annuli technique was only 61%.



The split on their accuracy results was as follows:

Young (2.5-3.5) = 68%

Middle-Aged (4.5-5.5) = 53%

Mature (6.5-8.5) = 56%



Ideally, without having the deer tagged at birth, the best way to try to determine the age would probably be a combination of tooth wear, cementum annuli testing, and a historical photo record of a given deer (again IMO).



Send me a link to that study. I haven't seen cementum annuli testing at that low of an accuracy before. I was merely going off personal experience and what their website said




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Old 10-16-2017, 04:25 PM   #62
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FWIW, I adjusted the pic some to see if that helps our opinions. I don't necessarily see that as an abnormal bump on his upper shoulder as that is where the upper part of their scapula sits. His face does almost seem to have more age on it with the pic lightened up. Tough one without anything else to go on.

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Old 10-16-2017, 04:44 PM   #63
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Send me a link to that study. I haven't seen cementum annuli testing at that low of an accuracy before. I was merely going off personal experience and what their website said




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Interestingly, deerage.com even quotes Hellickson about how CA testing is preferred for deer 3.5+, but they conveniently omit the results of his accuracy testing. Their citing an 85% accuracy rate seems to be a bit of self-serving cherry picking.

The PDF file I have is of a presentation Hellickson et al gave about their results, and how they decided to create new aging criteria that doesn't attempt to lock in a deer to an exact year of age. By grouping deer into age classes instead of an exact year, they said it would make management decisions more straightforward. The file is too large to attach here, so PM me your email address.
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Old 10-16-2017, 05:16 PM   #64
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Ideally, without having the deer tagged at birth, the best way to try to determine the age would probably be a combination of tooth wear, cementum annuli testing, and a historical photo record of a given deer (again IMO).[/QUOTE]

I agree - we do all three on our lease and we are almost always within one year - our rancher judges tooth wear, lab provides theirs, and we track most all of our deer over the years via trail cameras and video

The other factor on tooth aging is supplemental feed. A deer eating mostly the natural habitat versus one that eats a lot of protein and cottonseed can cause different tooth wear

Last edited by TKK; 10-16-2017 at 05:18 PM.
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Old 10-16-2017, 05:22 PM   #65
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The other factor on tooth aging is supplemental feed. A deer eating mostly the natural habitat versus one that eats a lot of protein and cottonseed can cause different tooth wear
Yessir, and Hellickson (and others) have addressed that in their work. And just like us, they will often prefer chewing on one side of their mouth causing broad variation from each side.
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Old 10-16-2017, 05:48 PM   #66
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Yessir, and Hellickson (and others) have addressed that in their work. And just like us, they will often prefer chewing on one side of their mouth causing broad variation from each side.
we have had cases of bucks whose tooth wear on one side looked like a 4 year old and the other side like a 6 year old
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Old 10-16-2017, 10:43 PM   #67
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Yessir, and Hellickson (and others) have addressed that in their work. And just like us, they will often prefer chewing on one side of their mouth causing broad variation from each side.
I didnt think about this and it makes sense
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Old 10-17-2017, 03:14 PM   #68
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3.5
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Old 10-18-2017, 01:14 AM   #69
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I'm wanting to address the second debate.....what are you considering "sissy beer"?
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Old 10-18-2017, 10:45 PM   #70
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I must admit, this has been a good thread. Thanx Swamp Ranger
I try to spark a good conversation Calvin!
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Old 10-18-2017, 10:46 PM   #71
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I'm wanting to address the second debate.....what are you considering "sissy beer"?
Those dang little skinny Michelob Ultra....I think if your gonna drink that you should poor it in a cup so the Men folk don't have to see it!
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Old 10-18-2017, 11:32 PM   #72
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Man they would be a tough one for me to swallow but I guess you know the rules when you sign up. The tooth deal just isn't accurate enough for me to risk fines and loss of tags over.
^^THIS^^ I'd want to see a picture before I completely stand-up for the guy, but I don't have a lot of confidence in ANYBODY toothing deer in East Texas. My hunch is their "scientific determination" is off by a year or two.
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Old 10-19-2017, 12:07 AM   #73
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Swamp Ranger, just save me a few to ground check when i get back in January!!
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Old 10-19-2017, 03:33 AM   #74
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Yes SwampRanger I'm in total agreement with ya on that!
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Old 10-19-2017, 05:26 PM   #75
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I try to spark a good conversation Calvin!
You dun well
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Old 10-19-2017, 11:07 PM   #76
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Swamp Ranger, just save me a few to ground check when i get back in January!!
With the luck I'm having you will have everything to choose from
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Old 10-19-2017, 11:10 PM   #77
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Yes SwampRanger I'm in total agreement with ya on that!
Your welcome at our camp...seems these Barbours Hill yuppies we let on think it's ok to drink "beer" that looks like it's more fitting at a jazz gathering.....
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Old 10-19-2017, 11:14 PM   #78
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3 or 4
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Old 08-05-2018, 07:36 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by sweldo73 View Post
Mickey Hellickson and others did a study a few years ago that actually showed the accuracy of even the cementum annuli technique is not very accurate. Yes, better than the tooth replacement wear technique, but nowhere close to 85-90%. Relying on these aging techniques to set fines on hunters is a bad idea, IMO.

The overall accuracy rate they found for the cementum annuli technique was only 61%.

The split on their accuracy results was as follows:
Young (2.5-3.5) = 68%
Middle-Aged (4.5-5.5) = 53%
Mature (6.5-8.5) = 56%

Ideally, without having the deer tagged at birth, the best way to try to determine the age would probably be a combination of tooth wear, cementum annuli testing, and a historical photo record of a given deer (again IMO).
I am going t0 agree with you here. We used this this last year for a test.

We picked a couple of deer we were pretty sure of their age thru tracking them over the years.

The 7.5 year old deer aged at 12.5 years old.

The 6.5 year old deer aged at 3.5 years old.

Lastly, the 3.5 year old deer, aged at 10.5 years old. (This one had us scratching our head the most, his molar wear minimal, almost what most would consider a 2y.o.)

Needless to say, we are not impressed with the service.

Our deer tend to age via jaw examinations younger that they really are because of our browse. Some of the aging above had us scratching our heads comparing what they claim vs. what the tooth wear showed.

And no, aging by tooth wear isn’t anywhere as exact either. Best way to age is just knowing your herd. We have had deer that ware way mature age (6-8), that aged by tooth wear to as 3-4.

Last edited by Greenheadless; 08-05-2018 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 08-05-2018, 10:45 PM   #80
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I am going t0 agree with you here. We used this this last year for a test.

We picked a couple of deer we were pretty sure of their age thru tracking them over the years.

The 7.5 year old deer aged at 12.5 years old.

The 6.5 year old deer aged at 3.5 years old.

Lastly, the 3.5 year old deer, aged at 10.5 years old. (This one had us scratching our head the most, his molar wear minimal, almost what most would consider a 2y.o.)

Needless to say, we are not impressed with the service.

Our deer tend to age via jaw examinations younger that they really are because of our browse. Some of the aging above had us scratching our heads comparing what they claim vs. what the tooth wear showed.

And no, aging by tooth wear isnít anywhere as exact either. Best way to age is just knowing your herd. We have had deer that ware way mature age (6-8), that aged by tooth wear to as 3-4.
Interesting results on the CA testing - those are all over the map!

We've also had similar results from our biologist on the tooth wear aging with the teeth aging younger than we had them based on history.
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Old 08-07-2018, 12:48 PM   #81
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Thread revived
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Old 09-10-2018, 10:29 AM   #82
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Attachment 877471Attachment 1Attachment 877472


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I donít remember being asked to post pics of my deer. Iím thinking 500 lbs. of corn would be a suitable fine for the infraction.
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Old 09-10-2018, 11:05 AM   #83
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I donít remember being asked to post pics of my deer. Iím thinking 500 lbs. of corn would be a suitable fine for the infraction.
I will accept this plea agreement. Please leave the corn in the cook shack.
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Old 09-10-2018, 12:28 PM   #84
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Great thread to bump. I have often stated that the more i learn, the less i know. ten years ago, you could have shown me a jaw bone and i would have proclaimed his age with great confidence. now, after hundreds of thousands of pics and history, I know that mature east tx deer will almost certainly tooth age a couple years too young.

Some deer that have never seen sandy corn may age even further off.
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Old 09-10-2018, 02:12 PM   #85
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Great thread to bump. I have often stated that the more i learn, the less i know. ten years ago, you could have shown me a jaw bone and i would have proclaimed his age with great confidence. now, after hundreds of thousands of pics and history, I know that mature east tx deer will almost certainly tooth age a couple years too young.

Some deer that have never seen sandy corn may age even further off.
True!
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Old 09-10-2018, 04:31 PM   #86
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I will accept this plea agreement. Please leave the corn in the cook shack.
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Old 09-11-2018, 10:44 AM   #87
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Enjoying the information and coversation on this thread.

Tough pic to judge but I'd say 6+ and that does look like an injury above the shoulder.

IMO...Live viewing, trailcam pics, videos and tooth aging are all spokes in the wheel to help us make the best possible decision. Having multiple hunters involved in this process helps out a lot. Unless youre hunting where every buck has an ear tag, then its always going to be a 'best guess' situation. When it comes to aging on the hoof, there's no substitute for hunting the same herd on the same ranch for a long time.

OK, I'll stop. Good luck.
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Old 09-11-2018, 10:58 AM   #88
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Age is irrelevant, someone in east Texas will steal it before too long
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Old 09-11-2018, 11:47 AM   #89
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I see a 3 year old deer, maybe 4. Cant get him older than that.
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Old 09-11-2018, 04:37 PM   #90
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Age is irrelevant, someone in east Texas will steal it before too long
We are very fortunate on this lease to be very secluded, basically one way in and one way out at the end of a long dead end road. Iíve been on 4 years and we have had no issues a at all with poaching or theft...knock on wood.
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Old 09-11-2018, 05:09 PM   #91
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The picture that was lightened up makes the nose look more roman. I would guess over 5 but hardly an expert. Was the deer ever taken?

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Old 09-11-2018, 11:01 PM   #92
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The picture that was lightened up makes the nose look more roman. I would guess over 5 but hardly an expert. Was the deer ever taken?

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Nope still roaming around but no one has pictures yet this year
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