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Old 05-21-2018, 04:36 PM   #101
Top Of Texas
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Originally Posted by Encinal View Post
Most people are claiming you can change genetics.

Itís exactly what you said after 3 generations.

Problem is the claims you are making coincide with other management practices that cause antlers to get bigger ... so you falsely attribute your observation to shooting work.
Ditto!
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Old 05-28-2018, 11:41 PM   #102
Jake
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Outside of introducing breeder deer, the giant deer potential on Texas ranches today is equal to what it was 40 years ago. The difference is that 40 years ago very few people cared. Today, lots of people care, thus the overall increase in antler quality that we all can see, but the science says that culling has not contributed to that increase. Do some literature search (scientific) and you'll see what I'm talking about . If doing a Google search, be sure to use the term "scholarly papers on..."

Forty years ago there wasn't a massive market for protein feed and feeders, or food plot seeds, or posters and videos on field aging bucks.

Also, Jake, think about some math with regard to your 5 year experience previously mentioned. Let's say we have 10 young bucks, 5 big ones and 5 little ones. All 10 are allowed to reach maturity, so the average of our 10 bucks comes out to be medium. Now, let's say we kill the 5 little ones while they were young and allow the 5 big ones to reach maturity. We have now mathematically increased the average size of our mature bucks. However we did not increase the number of big bucks, it's still just 5.

Of course the knee jerk response is to make a statement about 5 big bucks breeding and 5 little bucks not breeding. Unfortunately, that doesn't pan out, and research shows that it doesn't.

Question is - why not? The answer is - lack of control. I can expand on that if anyone is interested.

If you do follow up and do some literature review (scientific) be sure to also search "Dispersal of young bucks". If you don't, I'll still be your buddy also.
I was ready to move on and not get pulled back into this thread, but since you throughout my name on several posts, I guess I will respond one last time.

First, please read what I wrote, you are correcting things that I did not say. Also, I think deer hunting should be focused around the experience, not the size of antlers.

I agree that culling cannot be successful on most ranches for all the reasons stated on this thread and more.

Never said genetics can be changed by culling. I said a herd can be manipulated by culling.

Everyone agrees that the two most important factors are age and food. So no need to tell me how important those things are and that deer don't grow big without them.

I did enjoy your advice that I use that google thing to look up scientific studies. You should use that google thing to look up the scientific studies on "manmade global warming". Point being I am aware of scientific studies, how they are financed and the numerous flaws and preconceived biases that go into them.

What I base by opinion on is visiting a very large number of both high fence and low fence ranches over the last 4 decades that produce big deer every year. I am an inquisitive fellow who has been addicted to large whitetails all my life. Thus I ask a lot of questions and then I listen. I really focus my questions on the people that put the management plans together on ranches that produce large deer year in and year out. You know, the guys that are out in the sun in the middle of august, filling cotton seed feeders, building hog pens and putting out cameras. Not the guys that are paying them to do it. They would all agree that age and food are the two biggest factors, but every single one I have ever spoken to also has a program in place to shoot undesirable bucks and leave the best ones to grow to maturity. These culling plans vary greatly on the specifics, but taking out inferior and leaving the best is the basis of each one. I have never been on a ranch that consistently produces large bucks that does not have a culling plan in place.

Now maybe all these guys that have spent a big chunk of their life, day in and day out, are wrong and are wasting their time with this culling thing. But I am going place my bet with them and not with a scientific paper written by someone I have never met, with no idea who funded the study.

If you dis-agree, so be it, we can still be friends, but at least disagree with something I actually said.
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Old 06-01-2018, 03:56 PM   #103
El General
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Originally Posted by lovemylegacy View Post
True! The only genetics a hunter can affect, is the buck or doe he is about to shoot. Their genetics will no longer be in the pool
Not true. Their momma, daddy, brothers, and sisters are still running around.
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Old 06-04-2018, 09:31 AM   #104
Encinal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
I was ready to move on and not get pulled back into this thread, but since you throughout my name on several posts, I guess I will respond one last time.

First, please read what I wrote, you are correcting things that I did not say. Also, I think deer hunting should be focused around the experience, not the size of antlers.

I agree that culling cannot be successful on most ranches for all the reasons stated on this thread and more.

Never said genetics can be changed by culling. I said a herd can be manipulated by culling.

Everyone agrees that the two most important factors are age and food. So no need to tell me how important those things are and that deer don't grow big without them.

I did enjoy your advice that I use that google thing to look up scientific studies. You should use that google thing to look up the scientific studies on "manmade global warming". Point being I am aware of scientific studies, how they are financed and the numerous flaws and preconceived biases that go into them.

What I base by opinion on is visiting a very large number of both high fence and low fence ranches over the last 4 decades that produce big deer every year. I am an inquisitive fellow who has been addicted to large whitetails all my life. Thus I ask a lot of questions and then I listen. I really focus my questions on the people that put the management plans together on ranches that produce large deer year in and year out. You know, the guys that are out in the sun in the middle of august, filling cotton seed feeders, building hog pens and putting out cameras. Not the guys that are paying them to do it. They would all agree that age and food are the two biggest factors, but every single one I have ever spoken to also has a program in place to shoot undesirable bucks and leave the best ones to grow to maturity. These culling plans vary greatly on the specifics, but taking out inferior and leaving the best is the basis of each one. I have never been on a ranch that consistently produces large bucks that does not have a culling plan in place.

Now maybe all these guys that have spent a big chunk of their life, day in and day out, are wrong and are wasting their time with this culling thing. But I am going place my bet with them and not with a scientific paper written by someone I have never met, with no idea who funded the study.

If you dis-agree, so be it, we can still be friends, but at least disagree with something I actually said.
Youíre saying absolutely nothing. Of course people shoot smaller deer. They shoot bigger deer too.

Did you just say that your experience comes from talking to people that fill feeders... and not actually managing a deer herd?
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Old 06-04-2018, 01:59 PM   #105
Aggie PhD
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Man how did I miss this.....

Regarding changing genetics in a low fence population, you are not going to do it by "culling"
The biggest force at play is genetic drift, and will randomly swamp out your attempts at removing (or decreasing/increasing) gene frequencies in a population.

Regarding the doe contributing >50% of the genetic effect on offspring this is true. One must take into consideration that the doe contributes the mitochondrial genome, which must play nice with all of the genomic genes that interact with the mitochondrial genome.
Second, epigenetics like histone acetylation and methylation are passed through the female side. And these directly influence gene expression. Now granted the epigenetic profile of an animal changes over time, but the original influence is from the dam.
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Old 06-04-2018, 04:55 PM   #106
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One more thought. Has anybody taken into consideration impacts that the eradication of the screwworm has had on wildlife. The number of deer that are surviving to maturity, and subsequent density of deer has increased significantly over the last 40-50 years. And based upon the increased frequency of deer, there is an increase in the number of big deer, rather than a shift in genetic frequencies of antler genes over the last 40-50 years
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Old 06-04-2018, 05:41 PM   #107
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I remember seeing the boxes all over the place when they were dropping them from planes. Cool how effective that was. Yep, more recruitment of bucks on higher nutrition allowed to age just might increase the number of trophies to be had.
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