slick trick groups

[mnsmokepole]

There is something very wrong here. They should shoot the same. Are they the same weight?

[Ron]

I say the same thing. If the bows is in fact in tune, the FP and Bd should hit the same.

I went throught this problem last year and after hours of frustration, I decided to weigh the FP and BH points to see if they were correct. Guess what, some of those FP were out by 5-10 grains and the BD points (Slick Tricks) were dead on. Weighed some more FP till all had correct weights and problem was solved quickly.

[3children]

For those that use the mechanicals due to poor flight from a fixed, do you know that with out tuning your bow to shoot the fixed, you are losing energy! Everyone knows that an arrow that flies straight is faster than one that flies at an angle! There are several reasons why people use mech. one-lazy, they don't want the hassle of tuning, or don't know how; two-getting a fp and bh to hit the same place, they do even if the bow is out of tune, usually; three-shoot what the others are using, fanboys; four-freedom of choice, a good thing. Now this is not up for decussion, but an animal shot through both lungs with razor sharp blades, will go down in 15 seconds or less, nomatter what broadhead is used. An animal dies from loss of air (oxygen), rather than blood. Of course the oxygen is in the blood, which is carried to the brain. No air-shut down!

[atexx2]

Now that we have that cleared up, let me explain my method.
Tuning a bow is not rocket science, but is not always simple and with obvious answers.A bow simply returns to brace, and all we can do is interfere.
I start with visually lining the arrow up square, and inline with the bow itself.
The trick to this is taking an overall view of the lines of the bow and not just one visual or measurement.
What I do next, depends on cam style. If I have a dual cam bow,(cam and 1/2 included) I time by hand-drawing the bow until cams roll over as close to the same as I can feel.
(in my opinion, trying to use a draw-board is a waste of time due to forces vs hand-drawn are different).
Now, with arrow square and straight out the bow,and a Bodoodle Pro-Lite mounted, I shoot paper, making cam-lean adjustments for left right tears, and micro-time cams ( which will be inevitable due to adjusting cam-lean), and slight horizontal rest movements, due to riser torque.( when retiming cams, I will adjust nock point accordingly)
Once I achieve bulletholes, I install rest of choice and at this point, I have eliminated the bow from the equation, and can focus on rest timing, horizontal positioning, and nocking point that works for a drop-away.
I hate to manipulate center-shot or nock-point to accomodate any particular rest, but with some drop-aways it is required.
With binary cams, same process, but can eliminate cam-lean(unless excessive, and if so limbs will have to be replaced) and micro-timing. I visually time the cams with limbs.
Single cams are easy, done the same way as far as rest positioning, and only have to check idler lean and cam rotation.( cam lean requires cam bushings,a limb swap or replacement).
Now it's time to broadhead tune,and 3children has posted that method.
Keep in mind that this is the Reader's Digest version, and after tuning thousands of bows in my life, (lots of dual cams) I have seen things that make me scratch my head occasionally, and even I know when to use my phone to call a friend that has way more knowledge than me.
As you can see, I don't strictly rely on paper tears, but papertuning is very important in chasing tuning issues that walk-back tuning doesn't address.(even hand positioning)

Great info here, but for most folks that go to the bow shop to get a d-loop installed or the weight increased ,it might be a little over the top, still very impressive.

However, it did not bring anything new to the table , tuning has been suggested, and the illistration for broadhead tuning is there, still nothing to address the 12" drop.

We all know that there is no replacement for a well tuned bow, however you get it tuned does not matter as long as it is tuned.

Field tips are a little more forgiving than broadheads, meaning that BH will detect and react a lot more to a bow that is not tuned than FT's.

So if the bow is tuned then there must be some user error going on, such as the BH and FT are not the same weight, just because they say they are 100 grains don't mean that they are, bow torque, bad form and not following through with the shot, to mention a few.

[Wac M Trac M]

For those that use the mechanicals due to poor flight from a fixed, do you know that with out tuning your bow to shoot the fixed, you are losing energy! Everyone knows that an arrow that flies straight is faster than one that flies at an angle! There are several reasons why people use mech. one-lazy, they don't want the hassle of tuning, or don't know how; two-getting a fp and bh to hit the same place, they do even if the bow is out of tune, usually; three-shoot what the others are using, fanboys; four-freedom of choice, a good thing. Now this is not up for decussion, but an animal shot through both lungs with razor sharp blades, will go down in 15 seconds or less, nomatter what broadhead is used. An animal dies from loss of air (oxygen), rather than blood. Of course the oxygen is in the blood, which is carried to the brain. No air-shut down!

Thats silly...He said he was getting perfect bullet holes..his bow is tuned.

There are many reasons people use mechs..you dont know why people use them. I can tell you why I use them. They work and work well. Big holes will bleed out faster then small holes. I used muzzys for years and they worked well. I used to put em through both lungs and had deer and hogs go over 100 yards. A double lung is not always going to put your animal down in 15 seconds. For example a high double lung hit deer will go a good way with a small fixed head. That same hit with a big mech will make a huge difference. Both are kill shots but one trail will be much easier to follow and short. I switched a long time ago when Tuthdoc preached mechs. I tried em and was amazed. They work much better in my opinion.
Heres a few examples:

[BOWERIK]

I honestly did not want this to get into an argument over mechanical and fixed blade. I shoot what I shoot because it works and mechanicals have always worked for me; not because I am lazy,dont know how to tune a bow, or being a "fanboy". I certainely dont claim to know everything there is to know, but I have been shooting 1994 so this isn't my first rodeo.

I decided to try the fixed because I was going to a ranch that did not allow mechanicals, and that is really the only reason. since I had bought them even though the trip got cancelled I would rather test product I have never used on hogs rather than a once in a life time deer...

So again to those that respond with some really good comments; thanks. It really comes down to if anyone else had experienced this with Slick Tricks and it seems that either something maybe wrong or maybe it is just shooter error. I was tweaking with it last night and have improved it some, so thanks again for the positive comments.

[JBS]

I honestly did not want this to get into an argument over mechanical and fixed blade. I shoot what I shoot because it works and mechanicals have always worked for me; not because I am lazy,dont know how to tune a bow, or being a "fanboy". I certainely dont claim to know everything there is to know, but I have been shooting 1994 so this isn't my first rodeo.

I decided to try the fixed because I was going to a ranch that did not allow mechanicals, and that is really the only reason. since I had bought them even though the trip got cancelled I would rather test product I have never used on hogs rather than a once in a life time deer...

So again to those that respond with some really good comments; thanks. It really comes down to if anyone else had experienced this with Slick Tricks and it seems that either something maybe wrong or maybe it is just shooter error. I was tweaking with it last night and have improved it some, so thanks again for the positive comments.

I use Slick Trick 125 gr mags. One thing I always do is a spin test to make sure there is no wobble. If so I try another arrow until I fill the quiver with no wobbles. I also make an attempt to have all the heads line up as an X when nocked. I learned this from a older fellow that has forgotten more about archery than most of us will ever know, some may disagree with this but it works every time for me. When I started using S/T I did have to make a small tune change. I had perfect bullet holes and a perfect bare shaft, and walk back to start. I had to if I remember 1/32 up on the rest and 1/16 left on the rest to get exact same point of impact. After I made this change for the S/L I checked, Still had bullet holes, still had perfect bare shaft, and still had perfect walk back with target tips, same same with slick trick. Hope this helps some.

[Wac M Trac M]

Guilty..sorry if I got off subject...like everyone else said it doesnt add up if your getting perfect holes on the paper tune. The only thing I can think of is the field tips are heavier. If you must use fixedheads you could try a different head to see where it lands..good luck

[BrianL]

I use Slick Trick 125 gr mags. One thing I always do is a spin test to make sure there is no wobble. If so I try another arrow until I fill the quiver with no wobbles. I also make an attempt to have all the heads line up as an X when nocked. I learned this from a older fellow that has forgotten more about archery than most of us will ever know, some may disagree with this but it works every time for me. When I started using S/T I did have to make a small tune change. I had perfect bullet holes and a perfect bare shaft, and walk back to start. I had to if I remember 1/32 up on the rest and 1/16 left on the rest to get exact same point of impact. After I made this change for the S/L I checked, Still had bullet holes, still had perfect bare shaft, and still had perfect walk back with target tips, same same with slick trick. Hope this helps some.

Same here but with 100 grain.

One other thing I changed just a couple of weeks ago was my fletching. I went from 2" Blazers to 2" Fusion(I think) and made a difference. I ask the guy at the bow shop what would cause POI to be the same and still have FP fly a little wierd at times and the Blazers fly true. He had similar problems with a few arrows not flying true using Blazers, but POI being the same. Fetched with the Fusion and the problem went away. I have been shooting bows for 25+ years and tuning still gives me fits at times.

[Bearkills]

I would agree with rocky about everything but a draw board ... a vertical draw board with an offset of about 3"s can pretty much dead on imitate pressures applied by PROPER form. Even then, hand torque does very little to induce vertical nock travel. So his point on hand timing a bow is kind of silly imo. Bottom line is you need to make sure your bow is in time if it is a dual cam, if it is a hybrid you need to be timed for your cams and your draw stops. If you have a binary cam bow, first thing I would do is pull the cables and put them under tension. Measure them, they need to be exact ... pluck them with a bt release and ensure it breaks at the same distance on both cables. Eliminating finicky or off cables from the start can save you a world of problems in the long run. Yes you can time a binary with cables that are not true twins, but it is a lot easier when they are very very close. I won't pretend to have tuned THOUSANDS of bows, just to be plural with that word means you have tuned two thousand different bows. That means you have worked in a shop for over seven and a half years that at least required you to tune one different bow every business day of a five day work week. But I have tuned quite a few in my short time in this sport. Paper tuning is a good starting point but it can definitely deceive even the most experienced technician. If anybody suggests otherwise they are naive and/or not as experienced as they make out to be. If I would you from here on out I would check paper at three different distances friend, even off a shooting machine that reproduces perfectly I have seen bullet holes at 6ft and half inch tears at 18 feet. I paper tune at 6, 12 and 18 feet. Be sure your target is shoulder high as well as the receiving target in which you retrieve your arrow from. Techs shooting all over the paper to save space are inducing arrow travel that is not close to level and a bit pointless in my opinion. After paper tuning is done you have a couple of options, I normally chose to machine tune at 20 and then 50 yards. Not everybody has a shooting machine and I believe even after machine tuned you should do a quick walk back or french tuning method and then broad head tune as a reference to the machine work. On some hybrids a thumb high or a thumb low position can affect your center shot quite a bit. Anyways, after paper tuning if you don't have a machine, I suggest walk back tuning and then broadhead tuning to ensure your nock point is where it needs to be. I also don't suggest tuning your bow around an arrow, if you spent 800 dollars on a bow this year and it is 30 fps faster than last years bow ... even though the bow is the same poundage, believe it or not the chart is wrong and you are not dead on spined and you arrow length and tip weight should be adjusted. I mean spend the money and get you some arrows that are dead on for your setup. If you don't have the math skills to do it by hand, spend the money on a program such as OnTarget or TAP.

Anyways, to the OP if you continue to have problems, share your setup and send a pm or a phone number and I can coach you through adjusting that nocking point to get you setup just right. Hard to offer advice without knowledge of your setup. I don't think the STs are the problem as I have three different types of STs shooting dead on with my FPs.

[3children]

Ok, for all those that know what is wrong that is great but I can take a bow out of tune and shoot a bullet hole through paper. When I put a fixed bh on the arrow it drops 12" what is wrong with this!! I have said the bow is not in tune, and you replied by saying NO! So what is his problem!! The rest has to move, plain and simple, the bow is not in perfect tune!! Nothing wrong with the arrow, no hitting the site guard, not hitting the rest, then it comes to the bow.
BTW an animal hit in the lungs runs 33mph or faster and in 15 seconds can cover 200yds.

[rocky]

I would agree with rocky about everything but a draw board ... a vertical draw board with an offset of about 3"s can pretty much dead on imitate pressures applied by PROPER form. Even then, hand torque does very little to induce vertical nock travel. So his point on hand timing a bow is kind of silly imo. Bottom line is you need to make sure your bow is in time if it is a dual cam, if it is a hybrid you need to be timed for your cams and your draw stops. If you have a binary cam bow, first thing I would do is pull the cables and put them under tension. Measure them, they need to be exact ... pluck them with a bt release and ensure it breaks at the same distance on both cables. Eliminating finicky or off cables from the start can save you a world of problems in the long run. Yes you can time a binary with cables that are not true twins, but it is a lot easier when they are very very close. I won't pretend to have tuned THOUSANDS of bows, just to be plural with that word means you have tuned two thousand different bows. That means you have worked in a shop for over seven and a half years that at least required you to tune one different bow every business day of a five day work week. But I have tuned quite a few in my short time in this sport. Paper tuning is a good starting point but it can definitely deceive even the most experienced technician. If anybody suggests otherwise they are naive and/or not as experienced as they make out to be. If I would you from here on out I would check paper at three different distances friend, even off a shooting machine that reproduces perfectly I have seen bullet holes at 6ft and half inch tears at 18 feet. I paper tune at 6, 12 and 18 feet. Be sure your target is shoulder high as well as the receiving target in which you retrieve your arrow from. Techs shooting all over the paper to save space are inducing arrow travel that is not close to level and a bit pointless in my opinion. After paper tuning is done you have a couple of options, I normally chose to machine tune at 20 and then 50 yards. Not everybody has a shooting machine and I believe even after machine tuned you should do a quick walk back or french tuning method and then broad head tune as a reference to the machine work. On some hybrids a thumb high or a thumb low position can affect your center shot quite a bit. Anyways, after paper tuning if you don't have a machine, I suggest walk back tuning and then broadhead tuning to ensure your nock point is where it needs to be. I also don't suggest tuning your bow around an arrow, if you spent 800 dollars on a bow this year and it is 30 fps faster than last years bow ... even though the bow is the same poundage, believe it or not the chart is wrong and you are not dead on spined and you arrow length and tip weight should be adjusted. I mean spend the money and get you some arrows that are dead on for your setup. If you don't have the math skills to do it by hand, spend the money on a program such as OnTarget or TAP.

Anyways, to the OP if you continue to have problems, share your setup and send a pm or a phone number and I can coach you through adjusting that nocking point to get you setup just right. Hard to offer advice without knowledge of your setup. I don't think the STs are the problem as I have three different types of STs shooting dead on with my FPs.

Wow, I really don't know how to respond to this. I have my own shop, and have for ten years, and have been tuning bows prior to this.
You use a lot of extra steps that in your opinion may be warranted, to get to the same place as I get, BH and FP impacting the same POI with straight arrow flight. There's no way we can duplicate hand pressure with any kind of machine, therefore I deem it unnecessary. Sounds cool though.

Ok, for all those that know what is wrong that is great but I can take a bow out of tune and shoot a bullet hole through paper. When I put a fixed bh on the arrow it drops 12" what is wrong with this!! I have said the bow is not in tune, and you replied by saying NO! So what is his problem!! The rest has to move, plain and simple, the bow is not in perfect tune!! Nothing wrong with the arrow, no hitting the site guard, not hitting the rest, then it comes to the bow.
BTW an animal hit in the lungs runs 33mph or faster and in 15 seconds can cover 200yds.

Like I said in my earlier post, paper tuning is not the end-all of tuning, but is a great place to start if you read the paper properly and can apply experiance with what you're seeing in the paper.
Yes, I can manipulate the bow to achieve bulletholes, but that's not my goal.
My goal is to tune the bow.
You are correct, this bow is out of tune, or we have contact issues.

[rocky]

Bearkills, I kinda skipped over your advice on Binary cam cable tuning.
While getting everything to exact measurements is a 'feel-good' for some 'supertuners', they are assuming that limb deflections are perfect, but they're not, regardless who builds the limbs.
In my experience, especially with a dual-cam bows and Binary bows, a simple change in draw-length can take the bow out of time. This may be due to machining variances, and/or uneven limb deflections, and the timing needs to be verified again.
Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world, and bow components are far from perfect.
If bows were perfect, and without tolerances and variances causing each bow to be an individual, most bowhunters couldn't afford them.

[Bearkills]

Wow, I really don't know how to respond to this. I have my own shop, and have for ten years, and have been tuning bows prior to this.
You use a lot of extra steps that in your opinion may be warranted, to get to the same place as I get, BH and FP impacting the same POI with straight arrow flight. There's no way we can duplicate hand pressure with any kind of machine, therefore I deem it unnecessary. Sounds cool though.


Like I said in my earlier post, paper tuning is not the end-all of tuning, but is a great place to start if you read the paper properly and can apply experiance with what you're seeing in the paper.
Yes, I can manipulate the bow to achieve bulletholes, but that's not my goal.
My goal is to tune the bow.
You are correct, this bow is out of tune, or we have contact issues.

Rocky, I hope you don't think that I meant you were lying when you said you tuned thousands of bows. I was just being frank that to tune thousands of bows would require a lot more time in the sport than I have and it would have to be at a professional level. Because outside of owning a shop I don't think you would tune two thousand different bows in 30 years. I have no idea your experience and take a man for his word.

Anyways, are you saying that hand torque effects vertical nock travel? Because you say that a draw board is pointless and that hand torque could somehow induce different timing positions on a dual cammed bow. I don't think that is accurate at all and would love to hear how you come to that conclusion.

[Bearkills]

Bearkills, I kinda skipped over your advice on Binary cam cable tuning.
While getting everything to exact measurements is a 'feel-good' for some 'supertuners', they are assuming that limb deflections are perfect, but they're not, regardless who builds the limbs.
In my experience, especially with a dual-cam bows and Binary bows, a simple change in draw-length can take the bow out of time. This may be due to machining variances, and/or uneven limb deflections, and the timing needs to be verified again.
Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world, and bow components are far from perfect.
If bows were perfect, and without tolerances and variances causing each bow to be an individual, most bowhunters couldn't afford them.

No bow will leave a self respecting manufacturers with limbs so far out of deflection they could stretch a cable more than a 32nd one way more than another. I have put cables under 150 .lbs of tension more than the other and they still come out to the same length once tensioned to the weight they were served under. I am no supertuner, but what I described with the cables takes all of three minutes and if I have two cables that are more than two full twists off from each other, I am trashing them.