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Old 04-16-2018, 07:05 PM   #1
mikemorvan
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Default Reconciling what we teach kids, faith, and the vote

Pretty interesting from former WFAA reporter Peggy Wehmeyer. Had similar discussions with our kids after the election. I guess strange times make for strange bedfellows and strange decisions.


https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/c...s-time-divorce
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Old 04-16-2018, 08:23 PM   #2
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Site/page keeps crashing on me
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Old 04-16-2018, 09:06 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by mikemorvan View Post
Pretty interesting from former WFAA reporter Peggy Wehmeyer. Had similar discussions with our kids after the election. I guess strange times make for strange bedfellows and strange decisions.


https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/c...s-time-divorce

It’s a tough situation no doubt. The enfatuation some evangelical leaders have with Trump is a head scratcher for sure. With respect to the author of the article linked above, millennials have been leaving the church for a long time. I’d argue late gen x’ers started the trend of growing up in the church, leaving, and not coming back. Trump is just one of many reasons given. I believe the millennial flight is far more complex than just Trump and his relationship with evangelicals.
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Old 04-16-2018, 09:33 PM   #4
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It’s a tough situation no doubt. The enfatuation some evangelical leaders have with Trump is a head scratcher for sure. With respect to the author of the article linked above, millennials have been leaving the church for a long time. I’d argue late gen x’ers started the trend of growing up in the church, leaving, and not coming back. Trump is just one of many reasons given. I believe the millennial flight is far more complex than just Trump and his relationship with evangelicals.
The church struggles to remain relevant AND adhere to Biblical guidelines. It will be a forever struggle until Jesus returns.

I entered a debate with an evangelical acquaintance of mine who posted a meme about not being concerned with Trump’s past he was voted to clean up DC. To whit I responded you don’t clean yourhouse with a dirty rag and expect it to be cleaner than it was before? I continued to state I am shocked at the silence from evangelical right voters on the trump affair. They would jump at the chance to crucify (pun intended) if it were a liberal candidate. This sort of hypocrisy and duplicity is the reason non believers scoff at our moral assertions, we only adhere to “our” righteousness when it benefits us.

Frankly it makes me sick.
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Old 04-16-2018, 09:52 PM   #5
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The church struggles to remain relevant AND adhere to Biblical guidelines. It will be a forever struggle until Jesus returns.

I entered a debate with an evangelical acquaintance of mine who posted a meme about not being concerned with Trump’s past he was voted to clean up DC. To whit I responded you don’t clean yourhouse with a dirty rag and expect it to be cleaner than it was before? I continued to state I am shocked at the silence from evangelical right voters on the trump affair. They would jump at the chance to crucify (pun intended) if it were a liberal candidate. This sort of hypocrisy and duplicity is the reason non believers scoff at our moral assertions, we only adhere to “our” righteousness when it benefits us.

Frankly it makes me sick.
Agreed.
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Old 04-16-2018, 10:02 PM   #6
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This sort of hypocrisy and duplicity is the reason non believers scoff at our moral assertions, we only adhere to “our” righteousness when it benefits us.
It isn't only non-believers that have a problem with it. I believe this hypocrisy is one of the main reasons people are leaving the church. It isn't like hypocrisy only entered the church after Donald Trump came along, it was a major problem long before that. We chose to worship at a different church because of what we thought was a double standard at a place we went for over 5 years. We lost some friends over leaving but it was poisoning our faith, and we weren't going to let that happen. I can see how a lot of people would have just stopped going to church in that situation, though.
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Old 04-16-2018, 10:28 PM   #7
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It’s a tough situation no doubt. The enfatuation some evangelical leaders have with Trump is a head scratcher for sure. With respect to the author of the article linked above, millennials have been leaving the church for a long time. I’d argue late gen x’ers started the trend of growing up in the church, leaving, and not coming back. Trump is just one of many reasons given. I believe the millennial flight is far more complex than just Trump and his relationship with evangelicals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Playa View Post
The church struggles to remain relevant AND adhere to Biblical guidelines. It will be a forever struggle until Jesus returns.

I entered a debate with an evangelical acquaintance of mine who posted a meme about not being concerned with Trump’s past he was voted to clean up DC. To whit I responded you don’t clean yourhouse with a dirty rag and expect it to be cleaner than it was before? I continued to state I am shocked at the silence from evangelical right voters on the trump affair. They would jump at the chance to crucify (pun intended) if it were a liberal candidate. This sort of hypocrisy and duplicity is the reason non believers scoff at our moral assertions, we only adhere to “our” righteousness when it benefits us.

Frankly it makes me sick.
Ok, I would probably be in the generation X group that grew up in a catholic family but I drifted away from the church for various reasons. i would be a good case study. I don't even have/know a reason for straying from the church that I could defenitly point to. I actually don't know why. Recently, I have struggled/tried to get back in what I consider the right path. For me , that is living life more like I feel Our Lord intended us to live. I just don't feel any way attracted to the catholic religion. As I struggle to remain on the right path, I am not sure what the turn off to the Catholic religion is for me.
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Old 04-17-2018, 07:23 AM   #8
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I just thought it was interesting the Wehmeyers kids had the same exact reaction as mine did. It's a sobering thought when you realize that your kids did pay attention to what you said and did, they do have ideals. Then they have to live in the world.

Churches, and "religions" have had, have, and will continue to have challenges. I, purely one man's opinion, feel like most of the issues with "religion" are rooted in too much faith in people and not enough faith in God.

I could go on and on. I thought it was an interesting article.

I also grew up Catholic and left that faith. And i do know why. Several why's.
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Old 04-17-2018, 03:08 PM   #9
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most of the issues with "religion" are rooted in too much faith in people and not enough faith in God.
I've never thought of it that way, but that's a very good point. It makes a lot of sense to me.
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Old 04-17-2018, 03:17 PM   #10
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It isn't only non-believers that have a problem with it. I believe this hypocrisy is one of the main reasons people are leaving the church. It isn't like hypocrisy only entered the church after Donald Trump came along, it was a major problem long before that. We chose to worship at a different church because of what we thought was a double standard at a place we went for over 5 years. We lost some friends over leaving but it was poisoning our faith, and we weren't going to let that happen. I can see how a lot of people would have just stopped going to church in that situation, though.
Doesnt that seem crazy to think you lost friends over the church you attend?
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Old 04-17-2018, 03:47 PM   #11
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This is a big part of why I couldn't bring myself to vote for Trump, even though he was clearly the lesser of two evils. (I voted for Darrell Castle, the Constitution Party candidate.) Voting for Trump, for ME, would have felt like I was endorsing him and all that comes with him. I just couldn't do it. I don't have a problem with others who did vote for him. I'm certainly glad that Hillary isn't president, and Trump has done more good things than I ever expected him to do (along with some not so good things that I expected). Politicians are all like that. None of them are Jesus.

So I understand what Wehmeyer is talking about. It's not just millennials that have trouble with the apparent duplicity of professing faith in Jesus while also worshipping a man that is seemingly so proud of his obvious flaws. We're all hopelessly flawed, of course. But it's one thing to try to do what is right and to come up short and regret it. It's another thing to not even try to do what is right and to be proud of doing wrong. It is disturbing to me to see Christians willingly excuse such behavior simply because they agree politically with the guy. I completely understand it from a political standpoint. That is important. But, to me, it's not as important as honoring God at any cost, even if it means sacrificing what I'd prefer in politics or whatever else.

But still, I disagree with Ms. Wehmeyer in what the response to that should be. I have friends at church who worship the ground Trump walks on too. But I'm not going to leave the church over it. In Matthew 5, Jesus says:

14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

Leaving the church and holing up by myself somewhere in order to avoid contact with people who have different ideas about something than what I have isn't the thing to do, in my opinion. I don't think giving up on the church is the best way to make the church better. Staying and trying your best to be another small light seems like a much better alternative to me. I hope others stay and let their lights shine as well. Every now and then I'm the guy who veers off into the darkness and needs a light to show me the way back to where I need to be. That's what the church is for - to help each other and encourage each other. Every single day of every single year somebody is discouraged, disillusioned, confused, and/or just plain lost. But every single day someone else is in sync with God and is shining His light into the darkness around them. It's a pretty good system. I'll stick with it.

I'll also look for opportunities in the future to support political candidates who at least try to honor God more often. Whether they do or don't, I'll keep trying to honor Him on my end, as best I can and in spite of all my own flaws.
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Old 04-17-2018, 08:17 PM   #12
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Doesnt that seem crazy to think you lost friends over the church you attend?
Yeah, pretty sad situation when all we were doing was speaking up and sharing our concerns when we didn't agree with a decision that the pastoral team made. But, oh well, I guess that weren't really our friends to begin with if that's how they decided to respond to our concerns.
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Old 04-17-2018, 08:29 PM   #13
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This is a big part of why I couldn't bring myself to vote for Trump, even though he was clearly the lesser of two evils. (I voted for Darrell Castle, the Constitution Party candidate.) Voting for Trump, for ME, would have felt like I was endorsing him and all that comes with him. I just couldn't do it. I don't have a problem with others who did vote for him. I'm certainly glad that Hillary isn't president, and Trump has done more good things than I ever expected him to do (along with some not so good things that I expected). Politicians are all like that. None of them are Jesus.

So I understand what Wehmeyer is talking about. It's not just millennials that have trouble with the apparent duplicity of professing faith in Jesus while also worshipping a man that is seemingly so proud of his obvious flaws. We're all hopelessly flawed, of course. But it's one thing to try to do what is right and to come up short and regret it. It's another thing to not even try to do what is right and to be proud of doing wrong. It is disturbing to me to see Christians willingly excuse such behavior simply because they agree politically with the guy. I completely understand it from a political standpoint. That is important. But, to me, it's not as important as honoring God at any cost, even if it means sacrificing what I'd prefer in politics or whatever else.

But still, I disagree with Ms. Wehmeyer in what the response to that should be. I have friends at church who worship the ground Trump walks on too. But I'm not going to leave the church over it. In Matthew 5, Jesus says:

14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

Leaving the church and holing up by myself somewhere in order to avoid contact with people who have different ideas about something than what I have isn't the thing to do, in my opinion. I don't think giving up on the church is the best way to make the church better. Staying and trying your best to be another small light seems like a much better alternative to me. I hope others stay and let their lights shine as well. Every now and then I'm the guy who veers off into the darkness and needs a light to show me the way back to where I need to be. That's what the church is for - to help each other and encourage each other. Every single day of every single year somebody is discouraged, disillusioned, confused, and/or just plain lost. But every single day someone else is in sync with God and is shining His light into the darkness around them. It's a pretty good system. I'll stick with it.

I'll also look for opportunities in the future to support political candidates who at least try to honor God more often. Whether they do or don't, I'll keep trying to honor Him on my end, as best I can and in spite of all my own flaws.
Well said (as always) Shane! I suffer from some voters remorse on my end. I think that is at the root of Christians who voted for Trump and now can’t bring themselves to question his ethic and morals are experiencing. They don’t want to admit they may have made a poor choice of compromised their own convictions.

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Yeah, pretty sad situation when all we were doing was speaking up and sharing our concerns when we didn't agree with a decision that the pastoral team made. But, oh well, I guess that weren't really our friends to begin with if that's how they decided to respond to our concerns.
to me this is the crux of the challenge within the church and it’s declining numbers. Non believers or those raised in the church are looking for answers. Instead they see no difference in the church than outside of it. They see the same divorce rates, similar substance abuse rates, bickering, and gossip. Therefore they leave, at least in the world you know it’s viscious.

But it’s not the 1st time the church has been plagued by this, and God seems to stoke a revival and turn it around, at least for a good while
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Old 04-19-2018, 06:54 AM   #14
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Stop looking at the church and look to Jesus...problem solved.

The manner in which a believer is to interact with worldly issues is laid out in Scripture. I will pray for POTUS Trump just as I did Obama. I do not expect them to “fix” anything...Jesus has already set right the most important issue we face. I am just thankful to be allowed to live in these United States of America.

For me the idea that i have to “reconcile” my vote is silly and a product/conversation that a liberal media is pushing to get us off tract.

The author just needs to set down and explain to their kids, this how our government works, these are you choices. The Bible says God provides these choices...pray about it and push the button.

To think that our vote or non vote is anti God is anti Biblical.

Sometimes God gives us the leadership we deserve in order to turn hearts back to Him.
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Old 04-20-2018, 02:13 PM   #15
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I voted for Trump and would do so again. I don't have any expectation that anyone in Washington is a saint by any stretch. In a perfect world I'd like a government that fixed bridges and roads and let the free markets be free and stayed out of all the social crap. Trump was the candidate that I felt would be closest to that mold. I didn't base my vote on the guy's moral resume by any means and don't think that I should have.
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