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Old 02-28-2019, 09:12 PM   #1
manwitaplan
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Default Why do certain cases need trials?

I have been wondering for awhile about this and wanted some feedback.

Lately the news has been talking about the Santa Fe shooter not getting a fair trial here in Galveston County.

If everybody knows that POS kid did what he did and all the evidence proves it....... Why do we even need a trial

There are other cases as well that seem cut and dry with video evidence and the POS pleads NOT GUILTY!




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Old 02-28-2019, 09:14 PM   #2
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That danged ole constitution is tricky ain't it?
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Old 02-28-2019, 09:14 PM   #3
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Default Why do certain cases need trials?

6A

Edit for those unfamiliar with what makes our country so great. The 6th amendment of the constitution


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Old 02-28-2019, 09:17 PM   #4
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That danged ole constitution is tricky ain't it?
There you go!
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Old 02-28-2019, 09:20 PM   #5
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That danged ole constitution is tricky ain't it?
So many love the 2nd amendment, but want to ignore the rest of it.
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Old 02-28-2019, 09:32 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by curtintex View Post
So many love the 2nd amendment, but want to ignore the rest of it.
Or donít know the rest....

https://nccs.net/blogs/americas-foun...mendments-1-10
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Old 02-28-2019, 09:37 PM   #7
manwitaplan
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I completely understand the constitution and support it whole heartedly.

I am not questioning cases with questionable evidence on why we need trials.

I am questioning when we have 100% proof that said suspect is guilty that we have to have a trial. Then the accused pleads not guilty.

I suppose it is the way it is........

Thanks for the replies.


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Old 02-28-2019, 09:40 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manwitaplan View Post
I completely understand the constitution and support it whole heartedly.

I am not questioning cases with questionable evidence on why we need trials.

I am questioning when we have 100% proof that said suspect is guilty that we have to have a trial. Then the accused pleads not guilty.

I suppose it is the way it is........

Thanks for the replies.


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Because.... Due process. You get your day in court... guaranteed by the Constitution and I'll never want anyone's (mine or otherwise) without due process.
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Old 02-28-2019, 09:40 PM   #9
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In short here is the 6th amendment

".In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

In the Santa Fe case, the speedy part should be expedited
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Old 02-28-2019, 10:13 PM   #10
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Due process. Let it run its course and don't complicate it by riling everybody up. I wish social media would just drop this topic all together. Most opinions on this topic come from misinformation spread by people with personal agendas. Everyone lately is crying how the judge should be voted out of office for letting the trial be moved out of Galveston County. It was the absolute right thing to do to help minimize the possibilities for a mistrial that would have prolonged this for possibly years.

Hoggslayer
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Old 02-28-2019, 10:14 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by manwitaplan View Post
I completely understand the constitution and support it whole heartedly.

I am not questioning cases with questionable evidence on why we need trials.

I am questioning when we have 100% proof that said suspect is guilty that we have to have a trial. Then the accused pleads not guilty.

I suppose it is the way it is........

Thanks for the replies.


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Because we are born free! We have a RIGHT to a fair trial. We are INNOCENT until PROVEN guilty. It can't be proven until there is a trial.
It's not perfect, but it's the best we got.
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Old 02-28-2019, 10:15 PM   #12
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This thread has to be a joke...
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Old 02-28-2019, 10:21 PM   #13
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Because the govt runs the trial, but govt cant be trusted. So ordinary citizens sit on the jury. Govt for the people, by the people. The founders trusted govt way less than we do today, and for good reason.
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Old 02-28-2019, 10:28 PM   #14
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Think about this. Video is not proof. Video can be faked. Witnesses can be created. The news reports what they are told. Govt has that power and ability. Last line of defense is citizens wading through the bull and being 100% certain he is guilty. ( theoretically )
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Old 02-28-2019, 10:30 PM   #15
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Yep statutory law says you are presumed innocent unless proven guilty.
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Old 03-01-2019, 10:08 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoggslayer View Post
Due process. Let it run its course and don't complicate it by riling everybody up. I wish social media would just drop this topic all together. Most opinions on this topic come from misinformation spread by people with personal agendas. Everyone lately is crying how the judge should be voted out of office for letting the trial be moved out of Galveston County. It was the absolute right thing to do to help minimize the possibilities for a mistrial that would have prolonged this for possibly years.

Hoggslayer
How's Clay doing? Is he ready to nod his head again?
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Old 03-01-2019, 10:09 AM   #17
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Jesus christ... the fact that anyone in America can even entertain the idea that we should have extrajudicial punishment blows my mind and shows just how far we have fallen from what the founders bestowed us with.

A case where everyone "knows" a person is guilty is the most important one there could possibly be to ensure a fair, accurate, and objective as possible trial.

Everyone "knew" the West Memphis Three were guilty, everyone "Knew" the McMartins were molesting children in hidden tunnels under their school...
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Old 03-01-2019, 10:27 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by BrandonA View Post
How's Clay doing? Is he ready to nod his head again?
He's chomping at the bit to get back on but his mama won't let him until Pole Vault season's over.

Hoggslayer
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Old 03-01-2019, 10:32 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Hoggslayer View Post
He's chomping at the bit to get back on but his mama won't let him until Pole Vault season's over.

Hoggslayer
Let me know when he is ready and I will set up a tune up session with Brian
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Old 03-01-2019, 10:37 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Jspradley View Post
Jesus christ... the fact that anyone in America can even entertain the idea that we should have extrajudicial punishment blows my mind and shows just how far we have fallen from what the founders bestowed us with.

A case where everyone "knows" a person is guilty is the most important one there could possibly be to ensure a fair, accurate, and objective as possible trial.

Everyone "knew" the West Memphis Three were guilty, everyone "Knew" the McMartins were molesting children in hidden tunnels under their school...
And everybody knew David Koresh was guilty. And Rodney King. And then two black guys in Marion, Indiana.

Yup. We donít need no trials. Just a totalitarian government and lynch mobs.
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Old 03-01-2019, 10:45 AM   #21
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Go get thrown in jail in Mexico and you might think a little different about how we do things here.
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Old 03-01-2019, 10:56 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Hoggslayer View Post
Due process. Let it run its course and don't complicate it by riling everybody up. I wish social media would just drop this topic all together. Most opinions on this topic come from misinformation spread by people with personal agendas. Everyone lately is crying how the judge should be voted out of office for letting the trial be moved out of Galveston County. It was the absolute right thing to do to help minimize the possibilities for a mistrial that would have prolonged this for possibly years.

Hoggslayer


This.Right.Here


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Old 03-01-2019, 11:23 AM   #23
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Go get thrown in jail in Mexico and you might think a little different about how we do things here.
Or just about everywhere else in the world really... even many European countries have seriously backwards legal systems.

As messed up as it can be at times the US legal system is the best that has ever been devised.

Our system is based, in part, on the ideal that its better to let 100 guilty people go free that to wrongfully imprison 1 innocent person. Doesn't always work that way but it's led to the greatest, most just legal system in the world.
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Old 03-01-2019, 11:23 AM   #24
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Every criminal case has two prongs. Guilt-innocence and punishment. Most trials are a result of the prosecution and defense not resolving punishment.
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Old 03-01-2019, 01:01 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manwitaplan View Post
I have been wondering for awhile about this and wanted some feedback.

Lately the news has been talking about the Santa Fe shooter not getting a fair trial here in Galveston County.

If everybody knows that POS kid did what he did and all the evidence proves it....... Why do we even need a trial

There are other cases as well that seem cut and dry with video evidence and the POS pleads NOT GUILTY!




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You serious, Clark???
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Old 03-01-2019, 01:31 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by BrandonA View Post
In short here is the 6th amendment

".In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

In the Santa Fe case, the speedy part should be expedited
I never fully understood when they have to be called "accused" when it's caught on video. Or worse played on TV live all the way to the end non stop when the guy gets put in cuffs.

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Originally Posted by AntlerCollector View Post
Because we are born free! We have a RIGHT to a fair trial. We are INNOCENT until PROVEN guilty. It can't be proven until there is a trial.
It's not perfect, but it's the best we got.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jspradley View Post
Jesus christ... the fact that anyone in America can even entertain the idea that we should have extrajudicial punishment blows my mind and shows just how far we have fallen from what the founders bestowed us with.

A case where everyone "knows" a person is guilty is the most important one there could possibly be to ensure a fair, accurate, and objective as possible trial.

Everyone "knew" the West Memphis Three were guilty, everyone "Knew" the McMartins were molesting children in hidden tunnels under their school...
The OP is not talking about cases that people "feel" strongly or think someone did it.

He's referring to cases (like 1:1,000,000) where we KNOW the person did it.

Short answer is people are stupid. Government agencies are stupid. Can't trust either of them.

And I did watch Law and Order a couple days ago so I know what I'm talking about!
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Old 03-01-2019, 02:20 PM   #27
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Ok so lets say yall get your dream world where the folks we know are guilty don't get a trial.

Who exactly determines "everyone knowing" they are guilty and how is this determined?

Or do we just go off of feelings and emotion, because I know how y'all all claim to be against making emotional decisions...

Anyone thinking we should, for any reason, do away with one of the most important parts of our Consitution and the foundation of the greatest legal system ever devised by humans really should think about whether they deserve to be on this side of this new wall I hear is going up soon.

Last edited by Jspradley; 03-01-2019 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 03-01-2019, 02:24 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Jspradley View Post
Ok so lets say yall get your dream world where the folks we know are guilty don't get a trial.

Who exactly determines "everyone knowing" they are guilty and how is this determined?

Or do we just go off of feelings and emotion, because I know how y'all all claim to be against making emotional decisions...
It's not my dream world.

I do wish there was a way obvious real bad guys could be shot and save tax payers tons of money instead of long drawn out trials and then appeals and life in prison.

I was just trying to clarify what I thought the OP was saying.

You sure you're not liberal? I swear the OP asked a question and you jump him acting like he said he wants to get rid of the constitution.
Just relax a little, he never said that.
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Old 03-01-2019, 02:27 PM   #29
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He should get a fair, speedy trial, then expedited justice carried out by the parents of the deceased.
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Old 03-01-2019, 02:46 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by RiverRat1 View Post
It's not my dream world.

I do wish there was a way obvious real bad guys could be shot and save tax payers tons of money instead of long drawn out trials and then appeals and life in prison.

I was just trying to clarify what I thought the OP was saying.

You sure you're not liberal? I swear the OP asked a question and you jump him acting like he said he wants to get rid of the constitution.
Just relax a little, he never said that.
The folks trashing the Constitution calling others liberals. You could feed all the hipsters in Austin on that irony...

The 2nd Amendment isn't the only untouchable right enumerated by the Constitution, so yeah, when folks talk about trying to get around those rights then they ARE trashing the Constitution just like the left with their "Yeah I respect the 2nd Amendment but no one needs a big scary AR15" BS.
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Old 03-01-2019, 02:51 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by manwitaplan View Post
I completely understand the constitution and support it whole heartedly.
This could not be farther from the truth.
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Old 03-01-2019, 03:29 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by 35remington View Post
This could not be farther from the truth.
Well there is that fine print of the 6th Amendment that states "Unless we all know he really done did it or we got him on video"

There is a lot of room for nuance in politics but as far as the Constitution, its all or nothing. There is no "Yeah I'm all for the Consitution....bbuuuuuutttt....."
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Old 03-01-2019, 03:35 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manwitaplan View Post
I completely understand the constitution and support it whole heartedly.

I am not questioning cases with questionable evidence on why we need trials.

I am questioning when we have 100% proof that said suspect is guilty that we have to have a trial. Then the accused pleads not guilty.

I suppose it is the way it is........

Thanks for the replies.


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It's pretty simple when you think about intent of the Founding Fathers and documents. Our criminal justice system is not designed to make sure guilty people get put away. It is designed to make sure innocent people do not get put away.
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Old 03-01-2019, 03:48 PM   #34
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I have made a handy flow chart to determine if a person whose guilt is already 100% obvious deserves a trial
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Old 03-01-2019, 06:36 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by AntlerCollector View Post
Because we are born free! We have a RIGHT to a fair trial. We are INNOCENT until PROVEN guilty. It can't be proven until there is a trial.
It's not perfect, but it's the best we got.
Unless you are white male conservative gun owner.
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Old 03-01-2019, 06:42 PM   #36
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Unless you are white male conservative gun owner.
This sentence always cracks me up. History is on the side of it being very good to be a white male conservative gun owner.

Always figured when it's repeated verbatim it's with a massive amount of butt hurt

I once had an office apologize for having to write me a ticket for going 15mph over when I handed over my LTC. "I'm sorry, I just can't give you a warning over 10mph." It's awesome being a white male gun conservative gun owner in my world.
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Old 03-01-2019, 06:55 PM   #37
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This sentence always cracks me up. History is on the side of it being very good to be a white male conservative gun owner.

Always figured when it's repeated verbatim it's with a massive amount of butt hurt

I once had an office apologize for having to write me a ticket for going 15mph over when I handed over my LTC. "I'm sorry, I just can't give you a warning over 10mph." It's awesome being a white male gun conservative gun owner in my world.
Hmmmm...driving while white (DWW).
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Old 03-01-2019, 07:31 PM   #38
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This sentence always cracks me up. History is on the side of it being very good to be a white male conservative gun owner.

Always figured when it's repeated verbatim it's with a massive amount of butt hurt

I once had an office apologize for having to write me a ticket for going 15mph over when I handed over my LTC. "I'm sorry, I just can't give you a warning over 10mph." It's awesome being a white male gun conservative gun owner in my world.
No butt hurt here. I was talking about the presumption of innocence. Todays media has done away with that.

I could have added some commas and or to the list.
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