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Old 10-29-2015, 09:26 AM   #1
enewman
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Default Arrow weight mech heads. and thinking out loud

I've been seeing post on why my arrow did not penetrate. Or why some mech heads didn't work or no Penetration. When you have bad penetration on a shot stop blaming the heads. Look at the arrow and total weight. And do you have enough to operate that head.

Most of the time you see a mech fail on light arrows or low poundage arrows.

What we are seeing is that the market sales speed. Years ago a bow was rated at amo. That is 60 lbs 540 gn arrow at 30. Then ibo cam arrow and that is where the market took us

Now let's look at mech heads. I do not know the brands I do not shoot them. But a few years ago I believe rage came out with one that would open as little as 45 k.e. To me this means all others are above this.

So let's look at this. Let's look at average 28 in shooter at 70 lbs shooting a 350 gn arrow and a ibo bow of 340. That bow has a k.e of 77 There should be no problems with a mech head.

Now let's take same bow but turn down to 45 lbs with same 5 gn per pound. Now arrow is 225 gn. Now ke is 47 Now we are getting limited on what mech head to use. Not enough k.e. To get head to operate.

Now use same set up but turn to the average 25 in for young Women. Now that same set up gives us an k.e. Of 38 Now we are below the one mech that tells us you need at least 45 k.e.

So how can a low pound short draw person compensate for this. It's not speed. It's weight. So now let's look at same bow. 45 lb 25 in draw but take arrow to 8 gn per lb. the arrow is now 360 gn. Now we have an 43 k.e. Still be low the min required on the 45ke mech head

So as you can see for low poundage and shorter draw lengths why mech heads should not be used.

In my opinion for low pound bows and short draw the arrow should be around 8 gn per lb. and a good cut on contact head.

We all have seen people kill with what I'm saying we should stay away from. But how many are lost because they are shooting arrows that I'm saying to stay away from.
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Old 10-29-2015, 09:30 AM   #2
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The average women is 5'4. So I guess I should have used 25.5 in. Sorry
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Old 10-29-2015, 09:31 AM   #3
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I agree while getting my wife setup I think I'm actually at rite at 10 grains per pound. Maybe a Lil over. But she is not using anything but a cut on contact head. An also one that doesn't have a steep blade angle.
For me when I did shoot a Mech head I was using a 500 gr arrow an 60 pounds blew thru everything. So I think your right. Heavy weighted arrow is the key to good penetration. Especially when the shot is off a bit an even more so when hitting bone. Like a forward shot
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Old 10-29-2015, 10:12 AM   #4
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Here's my brief take on mechanicals....


If you aren't drawing 60#s with a 25" DL or better, you are not creating an optimum scenario by shooting a mechanical. I know that rage came out with the low KE version, and I know that there are lots of folks that disagree with my statement and are shooting a mechanical out of what I would consider a less than optimum setup. To them I say "go for it". It isn't my job to determine who uses what head. But, if someone complains about a lack of pass-throughs or penetration when they are shooting a 350 grain arrow out of a 45#/25" bow or even a heavier setup, my first question will be what kind of head are you shooting.

Yes, shot placement is key. But after that you have to take into consideration the amount of movement a deer or any animal can make after you let an arrow loose. That amount of movement can turn a perfect shot (on the shooters part) into a marginal one. When you start talking hitting rib bones or nicking shoulders, you start talking about whether or not your setup has enough momentum AND efficiency to blow through those obstacles to find vitals. If there is any part to that equation that diminishes an arrow's ability to get to the vitals, then you need to re-think your setup. This includes: arrow weight, arrow spine (for tuning purposes), tip weight (FOC) and BH choice. I have killed a few deer with my 415 grain setup, and I don't have the funds right now to go heavier, but I can guarantee you I will be going to a 500+ grain setup ASAP. Why? Because I know that a 500 gr arrow with a 16% FOC has a much greater chance of shrugging off rib bones when tipped with my slick trick vipers than my 415 grain 11% FOC setup with the same heads.

In the end, you have to couple both shot placement with "external factor mitigation". (Yes, I made that up). The best mitigation a hunter can do is to build an arrow that will absolutely blow through whatever prey he/she is after.
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Old 10-30-2015, 08:24 AM   #5
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The thing left out is momentum. You can catch a baseball at 100mph but do nothing to slow down a locomotive at 2mph.
This means shot placement even more critical. When shooting an expandable momentum and shot placement both are more critical. I don't worry nearly as much about quartering shots with Terminal-T's as I would with an expandable.
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Old 10-30-2015, 01:11 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old killer View Post
The thing left out is momentum. You can catch a baseball at 100mph but do nothing to slow down a locomotive at 2mph.
This means shot placement even more critical. When shooting an expandable momentum and shot placement both are more critical. I don't worry nearly as much about quartering shots with Terminal-T's as I would with an expandable.
I was waiting to see what kind of responces I got before going to the next step. Momentum.

With coc heads I don't worry about k.e. Momentum is all I look at. Now with mech heads you need both.

You need the k.e to get the mech open and momentum to keep it moving Foward.

And a lot of women and young people are set up and shooting mech heads that have neither.

Last edited by enewman; 10-30-2015 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 10-30-2015, 01:39 PM   #7
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I have had 2 complete failures with draw weights around 50 and draw lengths around 25-27 with my kids as they grow up. ICS 400, Mechanical, nothing else modified.

Put a buzzcut on front, ZIP on through. It was pretty incredible to see the difference.
I have added 100 grain brass inserts to all of my arrows, including the kids, super ZIPPY! The brass inserts are much longer and more durable as well.

Since we have baited hunting here, you can set up the range you want her to shoot. Hand feed them. Rule 1 - first get a deer.

I keep having the same experience with Stingers. Shoot through, animal runs about 30 yards and wonders what happened.....the curtain draws and lights dim. Pigs are particularly fond of standing around bleeding to death when hit with the stinger. I shoot Grizzlies and have similar reactions.

Handy!
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Old 10-30-2015, 02:41 PM   #8
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You are a prime example. You just showed Why low poundage bows with light arrows and mech heads don't work. Great job I bet the 100 gn insert arrows have great foc.
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Old 10-30-2015, 03:17 PM   #9
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Default Arrow weight mech heads. and thinking out loud

Hey Eric would my arrows with OK with mechanical heads :-p
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Or
Name:  ImageUploadedByTapatalk1446236638.899753.jpg
Views: 227
Size:  62.0 KB

Last edited by Pushbutton2; 10-30-2015 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 10-30-2015, 03:52 PM   #10
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I would say so but that's just me
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Old 10-30-2015, 04:31 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pushbutton2 View Post
Hey Eric would my arrows with OK with mechanical heads :-p
Attachment 752921
Or
Attachment 752922
Haha. With out a problem.
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Old 10-30-2015, 06:36 PM   #12
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I sure do appreciate these conversations.
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Old 10-30-2015, 07:44 PM   #13
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Quote:
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I sure do appreciate these conversations.

As do I!
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Old 10-30-2015, 07:55 PM   #14
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The broadhead makes all the difference in the world.
Most mechanical broadhead failure especially aluminum rage occurs when the furrel fails on hard bone.
Go look at the reviews for the rocket steelhead it's very difficult to find any better view on this head from any pound bow
My son left his broadhead arrows at the house when he was younger and he ended up having to use my rocket Steelheads 45 pounds 26 inch draw complete pass through on an 8 point
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Old 10-30-2015, 08:31 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbd10pt View Post
The broadhead makes all the difference in the world.
Most mechanical broadhead failure especially aluminum rage occurs when the furrel fails on hard bone.
Go look at the reviews for the rocket steelhead it's very difficult to find any better view on this head from any pound bow
My son left his broadhead arrows at the house when he was younger and he ended up having to use my rocket Steelheads 45 pounds 26 inch draw complete pass through on an 8 point
Can you say what that arrow was at total weight


The post was not to say that they won't work. There are the exceptions. The post was do to the amount of people posting that they have lost animals do to bad penetration. Most are do just from what I'm writing about. Not enough arrow for what they are shooting.
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Old 10-31-2015, 02:35 PM   #16
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8.2 x 26 + head insert fletch 340 ish
Small cutting diameter ,easy to open, and hollow ground head. In several test the actually out penetrate 3 blade fixed heads
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Old 10-31-2015, 02:50 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbd10pt View Post
8.2 x 26 + head insert fletch 340 ish
Small cutting diameter ,easy to open, and hollow ground head. In several test the actually out penetrate 3 blade fixed heads
That's around 7.5 per pound. That's a good weight for low pound bow. I would sat on the light end bug was better then most.
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Old 11-02-2015, 11:54 AM   #18
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Just saw another post. 27 in at 70 lb with an arrow around 370 to 390 gn with a montec head.

No penitration and lost deer. Hit shoulder.

Good example. Even at 70 lbs his set up would not penetrate a shoulder on a deer. Another deer lost do to not enough weight
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Old 11-02-2015, 01:21 PM   #19
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Just my feeling but there is no such thing as overkill. That's why I shoot a 600gr arrow with a 185gr COC head out of a 29/70 bow. Even marginal hits and the arrow blows through and you recover the deer. Plus my arrow absorbs all the energy and my bow is quiet. I'm all about momentum. K.E. means nothing to me really.
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Old 11-05-2015, 08:37 PM   #20
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I think poor arrow flight and poor attention to detail plays a major roll in the mech failures as well. We like to think all bowhunters are super **** about our equipment(a lot are), but the sad reality is there are way to many folks that take to the woods with bows that aren't tuned, mechanicals that aren't assembled correctly, improper arrow spines, poor grips, trigger punchers, etc... Also I oil the hinge points on my mechs, especially after hunting in wet weather for extended periods, because I've had them get "sticky". My grim reapers have always been the worse about getting a "sticky" blade here or there. Just my 2 cents and when you add your findings, among others, it's real easy to understand why people experience failures. I also shoot fixed heads of various flavors, but I do love the devastation of the big mechs on white tails. Thanks for posting!
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