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    All walk to 4-/2??

    Ok guys. At the nudging of our biologist it seems, we are changing up Mgmt plan on my lease to allow all deer to walk until minimum of 4-1/2. Honestly, I have some real concerns about this and I'm very much on the fence.
    To be clear, I do think the majority of our deer should walk to 4 1/2. However, I don't think you can apply that across-the-board.

    I guess it comes down to one of the oldest debates in management. Question being: can you influence the genetics of a free ranging heard by killing culls?

    If the answer is no then yes of course we should let every deer get to 4 1/2. If you think that genetics can be influenced by the killing of culls in a free ranging herd, then I don't think you can let every deer get a 4 1/2, because then you are battling more and more of inferior genetics.

    What say the GS??

    #2
    Originally posted by JLivi1224 View Post
    Ok guys. At the nudging of our biologist it seems, we are changing up Mgmt plan on my lease to allow all deer to walk until minimum of 4-1/2. Honestly, I have some real concerns about this and I'm very much on the fence.
    To be clear, I do think the majority of our deer should walk to 4 1/2. However, I don't think you can apply that across-the-board.

    I guess it comes down to one of the oldest debates in management. Question being: can you influence the genetics of a free ranging heard by killing culls?

    If the answer is no then yes of course we should let every deer get to 4 1/2. If you think that genetics can be influenced by the killing of culls in a free ranging herd, then I don't think you can let every deer get a 4 1/2, because then you are battling more and more of inferior genetics.

    What say the GS??
    If you can influence it at all, it isn't enough to notice. Anything under 4.5 is really to young to determine if its a true "cull" anyways.

    Comment


      #3
      One thing to keep in mind is that some "cull" deer could have the potential to seriously wound or kill other bucks when fighting if their antlers are funky. Basically if a deer has a narrow, straight antler (or antlers) it could easily slip through when fighting and wound or kill a "nicer" deer.

      We do all of ours on a case by case basis with a few people who are allowed to make judgement calls if a random (no trail cam pics of it) shows up. I'll post a pic below of one such deer that walked out in front of me a few weeks ago. I think he's a cool looking deer. But one like him would die every time it walked out in front of me. Also my first archery buck so that was cool too.
      Attached Files

      Comment


        #4
        Do you want to influence genetics by letting them walk or let them get closer to their full potential?

        Without question, you'll have better quality deer if you hold off until 4 1/2 to make the call.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by mej4219 View Post
          One thing to keep in mind is that some "cull" deer could have the potential to seriously wound or kill other bucks when fighting if their antlers are funky. Basically if a deer has a narrow, straight antler (or antlers) it could easily slip through when fighting and wound or kill a "nicer" deer.
          If that's a real concern on your mind, then you don't have enough to worry about.... 100X more deer get killed from getting caught in a barbed wire fence than get killed from a sword-antlered freak buck...LOL! Some folks let their imagination take over...

          Anyway..... OP, I think you kinda answered your own question. You have to decide what you believe and if you feel "culling" can effect a free range population and base your actions off of that.

          I do know that the bucks we watch on camera all growing season are sometimes different than the ones we see during rut. A couple years back we shot a buck that a friend had on camera during all his growing season on a place over 4 miles away. HE just happened to travel to our place during rut and got himself shot. The rut is when genetics are spread and it's a craps-shoot on what bucks are where when they are breeding the resident does. I personally think your new management plan is one that will pay-off in the long run, but like i said, go with what lines up with your beliefs.

          Comment


            #6
            Black Gold no doubt about it! It is definitely rare, but at the same time it happens. That buck I posted was 3.5, and he was the first one I've ever seen like that, but that's why I said we take ours on a case by case basis. All sorts of things go into that decision.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by mej4219 View Post
              Black Gold no doubt about it! It is definitely rare, but at the same time it happens. That buck I posted was 3.5, and he was the first one I've ever seen like that, but that's why I said we take ours on a case by case basis. All sorts of things go into that decision.
              I do agree that if something totally odd-ball like that is seen that it should go if it is a decent age. Something like the pic you posted at 2 1/2 years old could be a super-freak root-ball head of antlers at 5 1/2.... I like the freaky stuff and would have to wait and see.
              I've got a 2 1/2 year old now with about a 15" spread and a palmated side. Some would say to cull him, but he is on our "no-shoot" list due to the possibility of him growing into a freak...

              To each his own with that and what they like. I'm looking at the buck individually and not at his genetic spread ability.

              Comment


                #8
                If im wrong and the buck never becomes anything other than a dink, then he will be good for a kid to shoot anyway...
                AR can also play a big role into restricting "culling" on bucks like that in counties that have those rules in place....

                Comment


                  #9
                  Until they are 4 you really cant tell how they will turn out anyway. Unless you have a LLano Like population I would listen to your biologist. Deer get big by letting them age, I can guarantee there have been more future giants killed in the name of culling than there have been bad genetics taken out of the wild population of the deer herd.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    [QUOTE=JLivi1224;12882032]Ok guys. At the nudging of our biologist it seems, we are changing up Mgmt plan on my lease to allow all deer to walk until minimum of 4-1/2. Honestly, I have some real concerns about this and I'm very much on the fence.
                    To be clear, I do think the majority of our deer should walk to 4 1/2. However, I don't think you can apply that across-the-board.

                    I guess it comes down to one of the oldest debates in management. Question being: can you influence the genetics of a free ranging heard by killing culls?

                    If the answer is no then yes of course we should let every deer get to 4 1/2. If you think that genetics can be influenced by the killing of culls in a free ranging herd, then I don't think you can let every deer get a 4 1/2, because then you are battling more and more of inferior genetics.

                    What say the GS??[/QUOTE
                    When you say across the board, Im assuming that means doe also. The biologist wants a sound age structure. Increases the amount of mature deer and allowing the bucks to express their antler potential and allowing doe to get through several years of twin fawns thus raising the population of the herd.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by JLivi1224 View Post
                      I guess it comes down to one of the oldest debates in management. Question being: can you influence the genetics of a free ranging heard by killing culls?

                      If the answer is no then yes of course we should let every deer get to 4 1/2. If you think that genetics can be influenced by the killing of culls in a free ranging herd, then I don't think you can let every deer get a 4 1/2, because then you are battling more and more of inferior genetics.

                      What say the GS??
                      the answer is no. It's not even debatable. Was studied thoroughly by Texas A&M. If you don't have high fences, culling does not work.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Got to have enough acreage and enough tags to have any effect.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I sat through a presentation by Dr James Kroll on this exact topic a couple of years ago. He presented some pretty amazing facts that support under normal conditions the average hunter on an average lease should not concern themselves with "culling" deer. With constraints like time, amount of area a deer roams, tags available, etc it is not worth the effort. You would be better off spending your time and effort in other ways. The main ingredient in this discussion is the amount of time a trophy buck spends with a doe while locked down, the length of time that does actually breed, and how many young/cull bucks still get to the does while the "trophy" bucks are locked down. If you can find some of the articles he's written on this topic its worth a read. His stuff is backed up by years of actual field study not the latest article in Texas Trophy Hunters.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by mej4219 View Post
                            One thing to keep in mind is that some "cull" deer could have the potential to seriously wound or kill other bucks when fighting if their antlers are funky. Basically if a deer has a narrow, straight antler (or antlers) it could easily slip through when fighting and wound or kill a "nicer" deer.

                            We do all of ours on a case by case basis with a few people who are allowed to make judgement calls if a random (no trail cam pics of it) shows up. I'll post a pic below of one such deer that walked out in front of me a few weeks ago. I think he's a cool looking deer. But one like him would die every time it walked out in front of me. Also my first archery buck so that was cool too.
                            Was this a repeated antler trait?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Uncle Charlie we think so. The one I shot we had never seen before. But we have multiple pictures of one very similar that is a year younger. Hard to know for sure without pics of both, making sure the older one was in the area when the younger was born. We've seen injuries in the back legs affect the opposite side antler, but only that one side. When I was quartering that deer out, I specifically looked for any evidence of injuries and could not find any.

                              Comment

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