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Old 06-29-2018, 08:20 PM   #1
rocky
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Please don't vilify me, as I'm only posting the latest news.
The Archery Trade Association took a stance in 2008.
"The ATA believes that crossbows are viable shooting and hunting equipment that provide opportunity for a segment of America's huntersand recreational shooters,.... The ATA leaves the seasons and regulations governing the use of crossbows for hunting to each wildlife agency. ATA believes that when populations of wildlife, like deer, are overabundant, state agencies should make use of every type of hunting equipment to help control and manage those populations".
Currently, the ATA board has voted 15-2, to study whether the ATA position statement on crossbows should be revised, due to the fact that crossbow are far outpacing vertical bows in performance, and would be difficult to consider as primitive weapons.
This is due to the fact that in Wisconsin, where crossbows were granted full inclusion in the archery season in 2013, and data from the 2014 season shows that 33% of deer harvested were with crossbows, and 67% with vertical bows.
In 2017, crossbows accounted for 51% of deer harvested with crossbows, and 49% with vertical bows.
With advertising claims of 400 fps and 100 yard accuracy, there is beginning to be a negative vibe as to the "primitive weapons" claim.
Personally, I've seen a decline in vertical bow and accessory sales in my shop due to crossbows, and a loss of bowhunters instead of the crossbow being a gateway into archery.
This claim that the crossbow would be a gateway into archery has not been realized, in fact, it has had the complete opposite effect.
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Old 06-29-2018, 08:48 PM   #2
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Depends on the person. I've known older guys that just love the fact that they're "faster" and barely end up practicing with their vertical bow, simply because it is a lot easier than shooting a vertical bow well . That's a mindset problem. I will however probably use one for my son when he gets old enough until he can draw enough bow himself. Then if I ever get my wife to care enough, she may use a crossbow as on a good day she's 100lbs soaking wet. The problems honestly that it extends the season for someone withnno real drawback or difficulty. With the technology now, they should probably be apart of rifle season if you are over 18, or you have a disability.
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Old 06-29-2018, 08:54 PM   #3
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Agree with above .. not much different than rifle. All the same though, I don’t mind the crossbow guys at our place. To each his own.
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Old 06-29-2018, 08:56 PM   #4
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While I do not care what other folks hunt with, as long as it's legal, crossbows are simply too "clunky" for me to ever hunt with. When I can no longer use my Synergy, I'll just use a rifle or handgun to hunt with.
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Old 06-29-2018, 09:33 PM   #5
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What's a crossbow? Lol.
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:45 PM   #6
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I hunt with Crossbow. I cannot use traditional style bow d/y arm injury.

Alot diff than rifle,
Still string, less yardage, takes longer on follow up shot, requires placement, penetration. Im sure there are a few more. Same as Gun, Common???

Compared to bow,
Use scope/able to rest on object for shot, no pull back, therefore less movement to be seen, Faster, inherently more accurate at further distances.

This is an interesting issue. Not sure of right answer. I think there is a component of jealousy and fairness. I would use a compound if I could. I have a feeling when compound came out, Traditional guys were complaining about distance/speed differences. People buy faster bows, wanting to get more speed, then complain that crossbows are too fast. I have been around people who act like Im going to get all the animals, cause I have a crossbow and they have a bow. I mean, Its not like the deer seek me out to walk in front of, but when I do find them, it is easier in some ways to get shot.

I think allowing crossbow gets more people into hunting, I dont think they are mowing down deer in huge numbers with crossbows. The study with percentages needs to look at actual numbers, meaning did bow hunter decrease and crossbow hunters increase or did people switch from bow to crossbow. Be curious as to why people chose one over other.

So what is primitive? string/muzzle loader? less distance? harder to use/hunt?, Are deer management numbers being met? Are we trying to get more people into hunting?
As technology improves, the primitiveness declines. Good debate topic
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Old 06-29-2018, 11:41 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonS View Post
I hunt with Crossbow. I cannot use traditional style bow d/y arm injury.

Alot diff than rifle,
Still string, less yardage, takes longer on follow up shot, requires placement, penetration. Im sure there are a few more. Same as Gun, Common???

Compared to bow,
Use scope/able to rest on object for shot, no pull back, therefore less movement to be seen, Faster, inherently more accurate at further distances.

This is an interesting issue. Not sure of right answer. I think there is a component of jealousy and fairness. I would use a compound if I could. I have a feeling when compound came out, Traditional guys were complaining about distance/speed differences. People buy faster bows, wanting to get more speed, then complain that crossbows are too fast. I have been around people who act like Im going to get all the animals, cause I have a crossbow and they have a bow. I mean, Its not like the deer seek me out to walk in front of, but when I do find them, it is easier in some ways to get shot.

I think allowing crossbow gets more people into hunting, I dont think they are mowing down deer in huge numbers with crossbows. The study with percentages needs to look at actual numbers, meaning did bow hunter decrease and crossbow hunters increase or did people switch from bow to crossbow. Be curious as to why people chose one over other.

So what is primitive? string/muzzle loader? less distance? harder to use/hunt?, Are deer management numbers being met? Are we trying to get more people into hunting?
As technology improves, the primitiveness declines. Good debate topic
x2. I enjoy hunting, and this helps me enjoy a little more. Or else i would be sitting in camp .. Nothing wrong with crossbow hunting.
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Old 06-30-2018, 07:31 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonS View Post
I hunt with Crossbow. I cannot use traditional style bow d/y arm injury.

Alot diff than rifle,
Still string, less yardage, takes longer on follow up shot, requires placement, penetration. Im sure there are a few more. Same as Gun, Common???

Compared to bow,
Use scope/able to rest on object for shot, no pull back, therefore less movement to be seen, Faster, inherently more accurate at further distances.

This is an interesting issue. Not sure of right answer. I think there is a component of jealousy and fairness. I would use a compound if I could. I have a feeling when compound came out, Traditional guys were complaining about distance/speed differences. People buy faster bows, wanting to get more speed, then complain that crossbows are too fast. I have been around people who act like Im going to get all the animals, cause I have a crossbow and they have a bow. I mean, Its not like the deer seek me out to walk in front of, but when I do find them, it is easier in some ways to get shot.

I think allowing crossbow gets more people into hunting, I dont think they are mowing down deer in huge numbers with crossbows. The study with percentages needs to look at actual numbers, meaning did bow hunter decrease and crossbow hunters increase or did people switch from bow to crossbow. Be curious as to why people chose one over other.

So what is primitive? string/muzzle loader? less distance? harder to use/hunt?, Are deer management numbers being met? Are we trying to get more people into hunting?
As technology improves, the primitiveness declines. Good debate topic
At what point do we no longer consider a weapon “primitive”?
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Old 06-30-2018, 09:44 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocky View Post
At what point do we no longer consider a weapon “primitive”?
When we put "wheels" on the first compound....
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Old 06-30-2018, 09:51 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathrow Jethro View Post
When we put "wheels" on the first compound....
X2.

The issue that concerns me is if we see increased harvest rates with crossbows will it result in shortened seasons or reduced limits.
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Old 06-30-2018, 10:03 AM   #11
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Xbox’s have their place and time just not in October In my opinion. Unless it is in the hands of a youngster or handicapped person,
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Old 06-30-2018, 10:04 AM   #12
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Does it really matter what we hunt with? Just hunt! If it's legal, do it.
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Old 06-30-2018, 10:06 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonS View Post
I hunt with Crossbow. I cannot use traditional style bow d/y arm injury.

Alot diff than rifle,
Still string, less yardage, takes longer on follow up shot, requires placement, penetration. Im sure there are a few more. Same as Gun, Common???

Compared to bow,
Use scope/able to rest on object for shot, no pull back, therefore less movement to be seen, Faster, inherently more accurate at further distances.

This is an interesting issue. Not sure of right answer. I think there is a component of jealousy and fairness. I would use a compound if I could. I have a feeling when compound came out, Traditional guys were complaining about distance/speed differences. People buy faster bows, wanting to get more speed, then complain that crossbows are too fast. I have been around people who act like Im going to get all the animals, cause I have a crossbow and they have a bow. I mean, Its not like the deer seek me out to walk in front of, but when I do find them, it is easier in some ways to get shot.

I think allowing crossbow gets more people into hunting, I dont think they are mowing down deer in huge numbers with crossbows. The study with percentages needs to look at actual numbers, meaning did bow hunter decrease and crossbow hunters increase or did people switch from bow to crossbow. Be curious as to why people chose one over other.

So what is primitive? string/muzzle loader? less distance? harder to use/hunt?, Are deer management numbers being met? Are we trying to get more people into hunting?
As technology improves, the primitiveness declines. Good debate topic
I think you hit the nail on the head. The comments I see on crossbow threads on another site reek of jealousy. They literally think you are going to kill "their" deer. Of course a lot of them hunt public land, unlike we do in Texas, and they don't want to share their woods with anybody, and for sure not somebody using a "crossgun". I look at it like this. You have a deer tag, or multiple deer tags. What's the difference how you take them ? I hunt with bow, handgun, and rifle. The deer and hogs I kill have never complained about which tool I used. They wind up in my freezer and that is that.

The same argument was used when compound bows started being prevalent in the woods. The compound shooters had it too "easy". They were gonna kill all the deer at 30+ yards before the trad guys ever got a chance. Well, that didn't happen ! The crossbow guys aren't gonna kill them all either, and for that matter, neither are the gun guys.

To answer the "What is primitive" question, in my mind, trad bow, percussion or flintlock blackpowder rifle (using lead balls or conical bullets with iron sights). When you say muzzleloader season, or blackpowder season, then modern inlines are on the table. I personally think older folks are gonna be arguing about this until a couple generations have passed, or.....we keep fighting among ourselves until the antis destroy hunting altogether.
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Old 06-30-2018, 10:28 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by nothinbutwelves View Post
Xbox’s have their place and time just not in October In my opinion. Unless it is in the hands of a youngster or handicapped person,
Why do they NOT have a place in October? Does your "vertical" bow not shoot as far? Pigman shoots his at 100 yards, can you?

For the record I am forced to hunt with a crossbow this season (may never pick my vertical bow again either) due to recovering from shoulder surgery. I'm not a "youngster" and not classified as "handicapped" either. So going by your statement, I am just SOL for the upcoming archery season?
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Old 06-30-2018, 10:45 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocky View Post
At what point do we no longer consider a weapon “primitive”?

I wonder if that question was pondered when the first Long bow was developed.


Hope all is well brother.
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Old 06-30-2018, 08:57 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonS View Post
I hunt with Crossbow. I cannot use traditional style bow d/y arm injury.

Alot diff than rifle,
Still string, less yardage, takes longer on follow up shot, requires placement, penetration. Im sure there are a few more. Same as Gun, Common???

Compared to bow,
Use scope/able to rest on object for shot, no pull back, therefore less movement to be seen, Faster, inherently more accurate at further distances.

This is an interesting issue. Not sure of right answer. I think there is a component of jealousy and fairness. I would use a compound if I could. I have a feeling when compound came out, Traditional guys were complaining about distance/speed differences. People buy faster bows, wanting to get more speed, then complain that crossbows are too fast. I have been around people who act like Im going to get all the animals, cause I have a crossbow and they have a bow. I mean, Its not like the deer seek me out to walk in front of, but when I do find them, it is easier in some ways to get shot.

I think allowing crossbow gets more people into hunting, I dont think they are mowing down deer in huge numbers with crossbows. The study with percentages needs to look at actual numbers, meaning did bow hunter decrease and crossbow hunters increase or did people switch from bow to crossbow. Be curious as to why people chose one over other.

So what is primitive? string/muzzle loader? less distance? harder to use/hunt?, Are deer management numbers being met? Are we trying to get more people into hunting?
As technology improves, the primitiveness declines. Good debate topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathrow Jethro View Post
When we put "wheels" on the first compound....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathrow Jethro View Post
Why do they NOT have a place in October? Does your "vertical" bow not shoot as far? Pigman shoots his at 100 yards, can you?

For the record I am forced to hunt with a crossbow this season (may never pick my vertical bow again either) due to recovering from shoulder surgery. I'm not a "youngster" and not classified as "handicapped" either. So going by your statement, I am just SOL for the upcoming archery season?
The hurt shoulder argument is understandable, as I too broke my shoulder back in the '70s, and being a dumbass kid, I didn't go to the doctor until it had already started healing.To this day, I'm forced to hunt with a 65 lb bow.
Several years ago, my wife had shoulder issues to the point I had to help her pull her bow to sight it in, and backed it off to a weight that was probably not legal at the time, so that she could hunt.
2 years ago, she had shoulder surgery, and I built her a 40 lb bow so that we could back it down to 30 so that she could shoot and build up to 40 lbs.
She did, and killed a 135 inch deer that year.
This past year, at 46 lbs, she killed another 135 inch deer.
She has a DL of 25 inches, so I guess that's why she's able to be successful with a low poundage bow.
AS far as getting more hunters into the game, I don't agree.
Most hunters that are using a crossbow have been either bowhunting, or gunhunting previously, with the exception of youngsters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas Grown View Post
I wonder if that question was pondered when the first Long bow was developed.


Hope all is well brother.
I wonder also.
I wonder if "primitive" is exclusive to selfbows, or do we need to ban fiberglass backed recurves, and carbon or aluminum arrows?
I think maybe, drawing in the presence of game, with a handrawn,handheld weapon might be the deciding factor.
Keep in mind, that with crossbows, there is no drawing in the presence of game, there is no holding, and with a scope, shooting hours are extended.
With a rest, a crossbow is way more effective, with a much shorter learning curve, than the best compound on the market.

From a retailers point of view, I can sell more compounds to a family due to differing DLs and poundage restraints.
If that family was inclined to shoot a crossbow, they would only need one.
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Old 07-01-2018, 03:39 AM   #17
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My Parker Enforcer is a tack driver. I have killed a bunch of pigs with it and several whitetail. It is by far the most accurate and durable crossbow for the money. Yes, it is ARCHERY equipment. It still has about the same effective range as a wheeled bow. It requires skill and practice. It fires a bolt with a broadhead. Snobs exist in every sport.

Last edited by Speedgoat; 07-01-2018 at 03:41 AM.
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Old 07-01-2018, 03:56 AM   #18
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We still on this?

What benefit is there to the ATA to revise their ‘statement’?
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Old 07-01-2018, 06:06 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocky View Post
At what point do we no longer consider a weapon “primitive”?
Primitive is just a word. It probably gives some people a rush to use it in relation to how they hunt, and others like me don't really care. I started using a crossbow last year and I like it. I am able to use a compound, but I like the crossbow. Why? Because I do not want to wound and lose an animal and I feel like I am way less likely to do that with my crossbow due to accuracy.

I know a lot of people shoot everyday, so accuracy with a regular bow is less of an issue with them. But I am not that committed and have other things I would rather be doing than that.

It works for me, we all have different drivers
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Old 07-01-2018, 06:48 AM   #20
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Can't we all just get along !
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Old 07-01-2018, 07:47 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Atfulldraw View Post
We still on this?

What benefit is there to the ATA to revise their ‘statement’?
I don't know, but obviously there is concern about the explosion of crossbow shooters, and decline of vertical bow shooters, or the vote would not have been 15-2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick View Post
Primitive is just a word. It probably gives some people a rush to use it in relation to how they hunt, and others like me don't really care. I started using a crossbow last year and I like it. I am able to use a compound, but I like the crossbow. Why? Because I do not want to wound and lose an animal and I feel like I am way less likely to do that with my crossbow due to accuracy.

I know a lot of people shoot everyday, so accuracy with a regular bow is less of an issue with them. But I am not that committed and have other things I would rather be doing than that.

It works for me, we all have different drivers
The only affect it has on me is in sales, as I really don't care what a person uses to kill game, and am definitely not a snob as someone alluded to.
Heck, I really don't understand why Texas even has an archery season when a lot of the state is MLD, and starts hunting with firearms on opening day of the archery season.
The argument that it would be a gateway to archery,(vertical bows), has not materialized, in fact, just the opposite has occurred.
Combine this with the increased cost of vertical bows,($1,000 bare) and accessories, and online sales, the small brick and mortar stores are struggling.
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Old 07-01-2018, 08:17 AM   #22
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Pops goes hunting early now since he can use a crossbow. In fact that's all he hunts with anymore. I'm glad he can get out there and do it!


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Old 07-01-2018, 08:19 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocky View Post
I don't know, but obviously there is concern about the explosion of crossbow shooters, and decline of vertical bow shooters, or the vote would not have been 15-2.





The only affect it has on me is in sales, as I really don't care what a person uses to kill game, and am definitely not a snob as someone alluded to.

Heck, I really don't understand why Texas even has an archery season when a lot of the state is MLD, and starts hunting with firearms on opening day of the archery season.

The argument that it would be a gateway to archery,(vertical bows), has not materialized, in fact, just the opposite has occurred.

Combine this with the increased cost of vertical bows,($1,000 bare) and accessories, and online sales, the small brick and mortar stores are struggling.

There's room in that big building of yours to sell Waterdogs!!!!


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Old 07-01-2018, 08:37 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocky View Post
Please don't vilify me, as I'm only posting the latest news.
The Archery Trade Association took a stance in 2008.
"The ATA believes that crossbows are viable shooting and hunting equipment that provide opportunity for a segment of America's huntersand recreational shooters,.... The ATA leaves the seasons and regulations governing the use of crossbows for hunting to each wildlife agency. ATA believes that when populations of wildlife, like deer, are overabundant, state agencies should make use of every type of hunting equipment to help control and manage those populations".
Currently, the ATA board has voted 15-2, to study whether the ATA position statement on crossbows should be revised, due to the fact that crossbow are far outpacing vertical bows in performance, and would be difficult to consider as primitive weapons.
This is due to the fact that in Wisconsin, where crossbows were granted full inclusion in the archery season in 2013, and data from the 2014 season shows that 33% of deer harvested were with crossbows, and 67% with vertical bows.
In 2017, crossbows accounted for 51% of deer harvested with crossbows, and 49% with vertical bows.
With advertising claims of 400 fps and 100 yard accuracy, there is beginning to be a negative vibe as to the "primitive weapons" claim.
Personally, I've seen a decline in vertical bow and accessory sales in my shop due to crossbows, and a loss of bowhunters instead of the crossbow being a gateway into archery.
This claim that the crossbow would be a gateway into archery has not been realized, in fact, it has had the complete opposite effect.
Lots of valid points in there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drycreek3189 View Post
While I do not care what other folks hunt with, as long as it's legal, crossbows are simply too "clunky" for me to ever hunt with. When I can no longer use my Synergy, I'll just use a rifle or handgun to hunt with.
So you have no opinion as to what the laws should say?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeeter View Post
Does it really matter what we hunt with? Just hunt! If it's legal, do it.
Yes it matters. As archery hunters I'm pretty sure we would all care if they just made October part of general season. Or if they made night hunting legal you would care.

And the "if it's legal" statement is very short sighted. We should all follow the laws but we should also all be part of them making correct laws. Not just sitting back and accepting whatever they tell us is law.


FTR - I have no problem with crossbows on my place. I encourage bows but if the hunter is more sure of themselves getting a kill with a crossbow it's fine with me.
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Old 07-01-2018, 08:43 AM   #25
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Who cares shoot what you want if it’s legal most guys including me picks up a rifle after bow season !! But in my little part of Texas game is not as plentiful as other parts . I wished tpwd open up rifle season on the 15th of October here in southeast Texas. Because rutting activity is earlier. And sometimes when the open season starts the 6th or 7th of November they’re pretty much in lockdown it’s pretty much puts a sour tastes in our mouths after paying, feeding ,and the main parts of the ruts over with when season open on the second weekend of November. Sorry got off topics .. bottom line we’re all hunters and don’t knock how other people hunts. I once knew a traditionalist shooter that knocked our wheeled bows but when rifle season opened he put bow in the closet then picked up rifle never understood that !! It ok to pick and probe at your fellow hunters but I wouldn’t take it serious about the way someone chooses to hunt.
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Old 07-01-2018, 08:44 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathrow Jethro View Post
Why do they NOT have a place in October? Does your "vertical" bow not shoot as far? Pigman shoots his at 100 yards, can you?

For the record I am forced to hunt with a crossbow this season (may never pick my vertical bow again either) due to recovering from shoulder surgery. I'm not a "youngster" and not classified as "handicapped" either. So going by your statement, I am just SOL for the upcoming archery season?
Most people can't shoot a compound accurately past 20 yards. Sure a lot of TBHers can shoot 30+ but most can't. Only a very low percent can shoot accurate past 50.

Crossbows are a ton easier and take little to zero practice.

Dumb to take the top 1% of compound shooters and compare to 99% of crossbow shooters.
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Old 07-01-2018, 09:13 AM   #27
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"I wished tpwd open up rifle season on the 15th of October here in southeast Texas. Because rutting activity is earlier"

LOL, I wish bow season extended into November about a week or two. Help keep the gun hunters out the woods and pressure down on "MY Public Deer".

Everybody has their own justifications, me included.

In the end, I think a crossbow is closer to a vertical bow, than a gun, hence allowed in bow season.
Now, to stir up more,
air guns and bow guns things, resemble guns and hence should only be in gun season. IMO

Last edited by JasonS; 07-01-2018 at 09:17 AM.
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Old 07-01-2018, 09:20 AM   #28
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I'd be willing to bet that 90 per cent of those "hunters" who picked up a crossbow and hardly practiced, got humbled the first time they took a shot at a whitetail just a little beyond 20 yards, and ended up wondering why they missed when they were drilling a target out to 50 yards.
The problem with not practicing is they can't judge distance accurately, and think they can hit those deer standing 30, 40+ yards out there and have no idea what the actual range is, or the fact that the deer hear the twang before the arrow gets there, and the fastest Xbow made can't beat the ears of a deer or the speed of sound. (Never heard a air or bow gun, but I'd think they are still pretty loud)
I've got an old, slow, clunky, Horton crossbow that I've been shooting for so long, I would have gotten kicked off this forum several years back just for mentioning it.
I've lost count of the deer I've taken with it, but at average bow range, under 25 yards, it's meat in the freezer.
The fanciest, fastest, high tech crossbow made today still won't take deer any better than what I've been hunting with when you know it's limitations, and your own.

Last edited by Jimbo47; 07-01-2018 at 09:49 AM.
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