Waco mini series. Branch Davidian

[Ironman]

Dont forget, it was known that Koresh went to town regularly and it was suggested ( by Mclennan cty sheriff if I remember right ) that he be picked up in town, away from the compound. He was vulnerable in town. But they wanted a show of force. They wanted to make a statement.

This is correct. IIRC, Koresh actually had breakfast with the sheriff on occasion and the Feds told the sheriff not to intervene.

[batmaninja]

I know Weaver was gulity too. And should be ( was ) tried and convicted for the sawed off shotguns. But this was all much more in my opinion.

In 1989, Weaver supplied two modified shotguns to Faderley. While the ATF maintained that the weapons supplied by Weaver were illegally shortened when Faderley received them, Weaver has claimed otherwise. The DOJ Ruby Ridge Task Force Report (1994) records that Faderley stated Weaver showed him an unaltered shotgun and Faderley pointed out where he wanted Weaver to cut the gun..........By June 1990, Faderley had been outed to Aryan Nations security. Weaver was then approached by ATF agents and told that they had evidence of his possession and sale of illegal weapons, and offered to drop the charges in return for his co-operation in infiltrating the Aryan Nations. Weaver refused. He was initially arrested by ATF agents on charges relating to transfer of a short-barreled shotgun without a license in January 1991.

Not trying to side track here, but my understanding is there was some entrapment kind of stuff going on at RR.

They also, got paid off by the Feds.

Both the Weaver family and Harris brought civil suits against the government over the events of the firefight and siege, the Weavers winning a combined out-of-court settlement in August 1995 of $3.1 million, and Harris being awarded, after persistent appeals, a $380,000 settlement in September 2000.

[PondPopper]

Yep. They sent good men in KNOWING the davidians had illegal full auto rifles. Sacrificed for a show, to make a point. May the agents killed rest in peace.

They knew a whole lot more than that but Yea that raid should have never happened for many reasons.. There was no reason for anyone to die that day.
Especially all of those children..

[miket]

In 1989, Weaver supplied two modified shotguns to Faderley. While the ATF maintained that the weapons supplied by Weaver were illegally shortened when Faderley received them, Weaver has claimed otherwise. The DOJ Ruby Ridge Task Force Report (1994) records that Faderley stated Weaver showed him an unaltered shotgun and Faderley pointed out where he wanted Weaver to cut the gun..........By June 1990, Faderley had been outed to Aryan Nations security. Weaver was then approached by ATF agents and told that they had evidence of his possession and sale of illegal weapons, and offered to drop the charges in return for his co-operation in infiltrating the Aryan Nations. Weaver refused. He was initially arrested by ATF agents on charges relating to transfer of a short-barreled shotgun without a license in January 1991.

Not trying to side track here, but my understanding is there was some entrapment kind of stuff going on at RR.

They also, got paid off by the Feds.

Both the Weaver family and Harris brought civil suits against the government over the events of the firefight and siege, the Weavers winning a combined out-of-court settlement in August 1995 of $3.1 million, and Harris being awarded, after persistent appeals, a $380,000 settlement in September 2000.

Yes, and for me it is kinda tricky. But in the end ( my understanding ) is that he did cut the barrel, so to me thats "guilty". Certainly wrong to entrap, but in the end you are responsible for your own actions.

Now, dont get me started on the Constitutionality of restricting the length of a shotgun barrel..........

[helibow]

I was living in Waco at the time and went out to watch it burn from an overpass, my friends and I were just hoping everyone made it out of the house. We of course found out that wasn’t the case.

I’ve gone foggy, or never knew, but what was the reason for the raid in the first place? What were they doing out there?

And I’m not asking to antagonize, I seriously never new or don’t remember.

There were accusations around the child abuse issues; however, ATF led the raid due to the firearms issues, which was probably the lions share of the PC for the event. They were highly trained in advanced weaponry, and had weapons, at the time, that were prohibited or not properly licensed.

[helibow]

Lots of interesting perspectives on this thread... which is one of the reasons I typically avoid much discussion about this topic. So far, i've only read two of us on this thread that were actually there, and the other 98% are arm chair quarterbacking about it. I was on the front line... I had the blood of those agents (literally) on my hands... Let's just remember that all four of them - Conway LeBleu, Todd McKeehan, Robert John Williams, and Steven Willis were all law enforcement agents who put their lives on the line every day for us. They were sons, husbands, fathers, uncles, and friends. They were good men who followed the orders on the day...It is easy to look back, this many years later, and say what was done right or what was done wrong. It was a different time, with different approaches and tactics. I do know that this event has been used as a case study for many to learn from. I can tell you it changed me, forever.

Koresh prepared those folks for a holy war. He armed 12 year olds, and frequently declared that they would be at war against authority, and he also preached that they would ultimately loose by saying "if you can't kill for God, you can't die for God."

I won't be watching, I just don't care to take that trip down memory lane. Took too many years to get the sights, smells and sounds out of my dreams. I still think about the faces of the guys I tried to help, the two (of the four) that were fatalities, and the others that we successfully got to the hospital that day.

[PondPopper]

Lots of interesting perspectives on this thread... which is one of the reasons I typically avoid much discussion about this topic. So far, i've only read two of us on this thread that were actually there, and the other 98% are arm chair quarterbacking about it. I was on the front line... I had the blood of those agents (literally) on my hands... Let's just remember that all four of them - Conway LeBleu, Todd McKeehan, Robert John Williams, and Steven Willis were all law enforcement agents who put their lives on the line every day for us. They were sons, husbands, fathers, uncles, and friends. They were good men who followed the orders on the day...It is easy to look back, this many years later, and say what was done right or what was done wrong. It was a different time, with different approaches and tactics. I do know that this event has been used as a case study for many to learn from. I can tell you it changed me, forever.

Koresh prepared those folks for a holy war. He armed 12 year olds, and frequently declared that they would be at war against authority, and he also preached that they would ultimately loose by saying "if you can't kill for God, you can't die for God."

I won't be watching, I just don't care to take that trip down memory lane. Took too many years to get the sights, smells and sounds out of my dreams. I still think about the faces of the guys I tried to help, the two (of the four) that were fatalities, and the others that we successfully got to the hospital that day.

My brother in law was there. From the beginning..
He was ATF at the time. FBI now.
I'll leave it at that..

[helibow]

My brother in law was there. From the beginning..
He was ATF at the time. FBI now.
I'll leave it at that..

Our paths most likely crossed... Glad he wasn't a casualty!

[PondPopper]

Our paths most likely crossed... Glad he wasn't a casualty!

Me too.

[helibow]

If you are interested in background on the four agents that died, go here: https://www.atf.gov/our-history/fall...odd-w-mckeehan Just click the right arrow to see the others bio's.

[PondPopper]

If you are interested in background on the four agents that died, go here: https://www.atf.gov/our-history/fall...odd-w-mckeehan Just click the right arrow to see the others bio's.

Steven Willis was my BIL best friend..

[DarrellS]

This is correct. IIRC, Koresh actually had breakfast with the sheriff on occasion and the Feds told the sheriff not to intervene.

He also hung out several mornings a week a Centex Brake and Spring drinking coffee. Relatives owned the business. Woukd have been very easy to snatch him up without the "show".

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[BigYoung]

I don't think I will watch the Hollywood version. However, last month A&E ran a documentary called "David Koresh, Madman or Messiah?" which was pretty well done. The interviews with LEO, negotiators and cult members who were there was very revealing. It seems apparent that the big mistake was going ahead with the raid even though they knew they had lost the element of surprise. They really underestimated the resident's willingness to fight to the death. Tragic outcome all around. Hard to imagine, but they interviewed several people who are still true believers - contending that Koresh was in fact divine and will come back.

I tried to watch this on A&E tonight. I tuned in for cult member interviews and could not watch the show. All I could think of was Inbreeding.

[Dale Moser]

The man was a child molester and master manipulator. I don't care how bad the fed brass botched the planning....he broght it all on those poor kids.

As far as I'm concerned, any adult in the building who condoned what he did had it coming as well. It's a real shame good men had to die...

[fbchunter]

The man was a child molester and master manipulator. I don't care how bad the fed brass botched the planning....he broght it all on those poor kids.

As far as I'm concerned, any adult in the building who condoned what he did had it coming as well. It's a real shame good men had to die...

Totally agree. Maybe there could’ve been a better plan of action but what was going on was awful and all who knew about it are just the same as participating