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Old 08-08-2017, 11:33 AM   #1
AJ the TP Guru
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Default Switching shooting styles

I'm just curious about something. If you as a trad shooter experienced a severe case of target panic - say, locking up off-target - might you consider switching to shooting pins with a release aid, at least temporarily?

My reason for asking is that I've observed improvement (if not a total cure) for those few guys who have done so, then gone back to their recurve, shooting fingers. However, it's been my experience that trad guys are really reluctant to do so; therefore, I don't have a statistically viable sample to be able to say it's definitely the way to go.

So.... would you?
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Old 08-08-2017, 11:35 AM   #2
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Have some Crown before I shoot to relax me.

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Old 08-08-2017, 11:38 AM   #3
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I switch between three under and split finger with success. My tp is much better but I don't know if I can ever beat it.


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Old 08-08-2017, 11:40 AM   #4
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No.
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Old 08-08-2017, 11:50 AM   #5
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Can't imagine going to a release, personally, unless some injury limited use of fingers.
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Old 08-08-2017, 11:58 AM   #6
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Andy,

I've been telling folks for years, that training with a single pin sight will actually help them overcome TP, and even if they don't have TP, it will help develop their sight picture (when without the pin), and improve accuracy.

It doesn't have to be anything elaborate either. Simply taping something like a toothpick to your riser works perfectly for a training tool.

I don't however recommend using a release aid for training for someone who intends to primarily/exclusively shoot fingers. The release aid changes the dynamics of the bow/arrow tune, and changes the anchor point to much to be training with for finger shooting.

Just use a simple pin, and shoot with your fingers is what I recommend, and what I have done for myself to great success.

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Old 08-08-2017, 11:58 AM   #7
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I would do whatever it took to keep me relevant as a hunter.
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Old 08-08-2017, 12:05 PM   #8
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I'm not a traditional shooter but when I started shooting a compound back in the 80's I shot with fingers. I had a sever case of target panic and even dry fired my bow once when I decided I would draw back my bow without a arrow and aim at the target. I did this because I new I wouldn't release without a arrow. Man was I wrong, my target panic kicked in a I released dry firing my bow. I had it so bad as soon as I would get anywhere near my target I would release. Then a few years later I went to a release and that helped out big time but still to this day I fight some target panic. Like one other poster mentioned, when you go from fingers to a release it changes everything and I think it would be a major pain to be switching back and forth.
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Old 08-08-2017, 12:38 PM   #9
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I don't understand the concept of target panic. Drawing a bow and releasing an arrow at a target is a fairly simple action. What would cause one to panic in that process? I grew up shooting compounds and recurves instinctively using my fingers. Learn to shoot where you look. I watched all the videos on string walking and gap aiming. That made me panic!
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Old 08-08-2017, 02:22 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speck1 View Post
I don't understand the concept of target panic. Drawing a bow and releasing an arrow at a target is a fairly simple action. What would cause one to panic in that process? I grew up shooting compounds and recurves instinctively using my fingers. Learn to shoot where you look. I watched all the videos on string walking and gap aiming. That made me panic!
Target panic is a mental condition.

As you said, drawing, aiming, release is a simple action. So simple, you don't have to think about it. Those who strive to shoot instinctive desire that... at least when it is working. But when it isn't working, and you can't get that sequence back under control, you have "target panic".

Those who shoot gap, pins, releases, etc can still have the same issue. Because deep down, something has to make the decision to let go and when.

Having a checklist of your sequence helps... it helps to force your brain to not let go until you have consiously confirmed that a surprise release is okay.

I tend to fend of TP by allowing myself to draw down if something doesn't feel right.

Granted, I have convinced myself the shot is okay when it wasn't (forced), said "screw it!", I flinch, torque, pluck, etc... but have never let go of an arrow uncontrollably. I have an intentional conscious trigger.





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Old 08-08-2017, 03:21 PM   #11
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Swamp,
Thanks for the explanation. I still don't get how you can just release before you are ready over and over. I can understand a bad release every once in a while but muscle memory should have you pretty consistent. It sounds like one just forgets the process during a spell of target panic. Maybe it should be called
Pre Mature Release Syndome. I was taught as a child never to panic. Bad things happen when people panic.
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Old 08-08-2017, 03:54 PM   #12
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Yes, I would AJ....use a release and or sight pins. I dont have target panic but I have been fooling around with attaching foam to my recurve riser as a backer for sighting pins to focus on dialing in more.

Mechanical releases and sight pins are taboo at competitions... but whatever it takes to float a shooters boat to weather the panic tide that ebbs and flows. I get anxious but more on the excited side than nervous. When the anxiousness swells I let down to physically remove myself from the tension of the draw to mentally remove myself from that tension and excited state.

I tend to agree with Rabbit a bit. I think a person nervous with target panic will be nervous regardless the gear or tools.

DRT...sing with me...."Whiskey river take my mind. Dont let that target torture me".
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Old 08-08-2017, 04:03 PM   #13
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I would not try it . I think going to a release would cause someone to loose the feel of a finger release when going back to it. I have never experienced extreme target panic but I have read that a clicker works and you can still shoot instinct or gap, while it's cured. I think maybe going back to basics like shooting up close then slowly over time weeks months slowly move back until panic clears up, confidence of closer shots became comfortable.
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Old 08-08-2017, 04:08 PM   #14
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I don't think I would....if I was gonna use pins and a release at all I'd just shoot a compound. That's just me though.
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Old 08-08-2017, 04:29 PM   #15
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What some folks don't realize is - It takes very good form to use a sight to it's potential. You're just not going to stick one on willy nilly, and be good with it right off the bat. It's going to take some work, but that work pays off.

Using a sight as a training tool forces you to hone your form at the same time it trains your eye to your sight picture, and those benefits will stick with you after you take the sight off.

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Old 08-08-2017, 04:59 PM   #16
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As someone who has and is currently fighting the DEMON I can say that personally no I wouldn't use pins or a release. I did try string walking to use the shaft as a sight pin but it only made things worse.
I don't wish this on anyone but I will say until you've experienced it you will never understand it.
It is purely mental, for me I could draw my bow back while saying in my mind "I'm not going to let this arrow go" and before I get anywhere close to settled in on a spot, WHOOSH it's gone. You can draw while looking at a spot on the wall or the T.V. and hold forever but try it with a target in front of you and suddenly you can't control your own body.
I believe it's like being an addict. Once you have it (or it has you) you have to work at not backsliding but you're never really cured.
I'm currently working on a new treatment that seems to be helping. Still to far away to say conclusively, only time will tell.
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Old 08-08-2017, 05:32 PM   #17
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I honestly feel like I'm being pranked every time I read one of these TP threads.

I'm sure its real but I just don't get hit.

Something comparable to the shanks in golf I suppose.
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Old 08-08-2017, 07:09 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetinlow660 View Post
I honestly feel like I'm being pranked every time I read one of these TP threads.

I'm sure its real but I just don't get hit.

Something comparable to the shanks in golf I suppose.
That's exactly what I was thinking.
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Old 08-09-2017, 12:34 AM   #19
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I agree with every thing Rick said. No release but a sight can certainly help. Also, as he said, you will get the added benefit of better form is you get dialed in with the sight and it will carry over to when you take the sight off. I've used it my self and know this works.
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Old 08-09-2017, 03:22 AM   #20
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I used a release for a very short time as it kept me from releasing too early. If your finger is not on the trigger you cannot release. I just could not get used to it though honestly I did not give it an honest chance.

Also when I shot a release with my trad equipment and when I shoot a compound after shooting trad it takes a bit to get used to. I have actually tried to release with by relaxing my fingers instead of pulling the trigger.
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Old 08-09-2017, 10:30 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speck1 View Post
I don't understand the concept of target panic. Drawing a bow and releasing an arrow at a target is a fairly simple action. What would cause one to panic in that process? I grew up shooting compounds and recurves instinctively using my fingers. Learn to shoot where you look. I watched all the videos on string walking and gap aiming. That made me panic!
It is good that there are archer/bowhunters like speck (and one or two others who replied in the same vein). I'd hate to think all had the same terrible experience that I had on two separate occasions in my archery life (early on shooting trad, and many years later shooting pins).

Alas, those of us who have gone through it likewise wish we had no idea what the "great unwashed" were talking about. It is indeed a demon, and very similar to an addiction. I tend to call it a disease. Sometimes there is no cure at all. Some claim to have taken the cure by shooting at blank bales for months on end (and I believe them, but never had the patience to succeed with it).

To be clear regarding my original post, I tend to think that a really bad and intractable case of TP can be at least somewhat abated by switching shooting styles for a few months or longer. At first, it may feel like you are cheating, but over the long run, it may give you the relief you are looking for in your first love - shooting trad.
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Old 08-09-2017, 10:45 AM   #22
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AJ,
Sorry if I came across as uncompassionate. I don't fully understand how target panic occurs but I am sure it is really frustrating. I hope you find a way to get back the accuracy and start having fun again. Mike
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Old 08-09-2017, 10:58 AM   #23
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AJ,
I reread your original post and read your add in the classifieds. You apparently don't have target panic as you sell an apparent solution for those that do. Good luck with the venture.
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Old 08-09-2017, 11:36 AM   #24
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Quote:
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AJ,
I reread your original post and read your add in the classifieds. You apparently don't have target panic as you sell an apparent solution for those that do. Good luck with the venture.
So this thread is basically spam.

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Old 08-09-2017, 11:47 AM   #25
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I have found it interesting that just like the term "instinctive" means different things to different folks... "target panic" also means different things to different folks.

Target Panic, to me, means that your anxiety/stress increases when you are drawing onto a target. AKA performance anxiety. Your brain is stressed and you are not relaxed. You lack confidence in what you are about to do. The symptoms vary:

1) Snap shoot when you otherwise don't
2) Uncontrolled release
3) Can't get your pin on the target
4) Rush the shot
5) Clutching
6) Can't let go of the string
7) Won't let go of the string
8) Closing your eyes before you let go.
9) others I can't think of or haven't learned about.

My personal opinion is that certain symptoms where the archer is not in control... and thus can't seem to fix the problem stem from the fact that the stress is in direct control over that subconscious step. It has been in the background so much, that it is ****ed near impossible to unlearn that behavior and since it is in control... how do you stop it from happening?

I have performance anxiety like crazy at many times when I pick up my bow. As WT season approaches, it gets worse. Sometimes at 3D shoots I get nervous about my shooting. I tend to hold the string longer (won't let go) because I am lacking confidence in the moment. I rush the shot because I just want to get the shot over with... ie I am not expecting a good result.

Since it is all "mental" or psychological... I do try things that stave off letting it be more than just a shallow impact. First... I forgive myself. I let myself off the hook. This is hard for me, but I look back and think of my successes and not dwell too hard on the failures. I see that I have improved... and I assess the reality of what I can achieve. Second, I try and focus on other things to take my mind off of the problem. I convince myself that the shooting will take care of itself and that there are other things to focus on as well. Third, I keep my shot sequence in the forefront of my mind. Sometimes, things can slip away over time. My grip, follow through, etc often times disappear from focus and I have to slow down and bring those back. I set reasonable expectations that things are just not going to improve overnight. Fourth... I make sure I shoot for fun as much as I can. Let my brain relax... and not stress out about the result of every shot.

This is what I do... I hope it holds out

One last thing. As an observation... it seems like some of the best archers I know develop TP. I believe they develop it because they are some of the best archers. There isn't a whole lotta reason to develop severe performance anxiety unless you have built up a very high set of expectations for yourself. That tends to happen when you have success in the field or on the course. I know my anxiety comes from having a high level of personal expectations that I set for myself. Not from success, but from desired success. It is a hard balance to be driven... yet forgive yourself for not achieving potentially unrealistic expectations.
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Old 08-09-2017, 11:47 AM   #26
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Quote:
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So this thread is basically spam.

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But he is a sponsor, so all is good, and from what I understand, he has helped a lot of folks with this issue.

All is good.

Rick
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Old 08-09-2017, 12:10 PM   #27
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No not imo.

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Old 08-09-2017, 12:33 PM   #28
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Who doesn't experience some increased anxiety when they draw on an animal?
That's part of the rush. The first time I tried to draw on a bear at 15 yards I couldn't pull my bow back. Took 10 minutes to regain my composure and make the shot. That's why I love it. Was that target panic? I don't know, but I did not require therapy or a safe space to be able to shoot again. I have friends that are deadly on 3D bucks but can't make the same shot on a live buck. They just let themselves get too shook up. The key is controlling the adrenaline rush enough to make a good shot.
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Old 08-09-2017, 12:44 PM   #29
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I basically think that classified adds should be in the classifieds. I'm glad some people have gotten help that needed it but I don't come to the trad page to be solicited.

but maybe I'm being an A (o) I don't know. If so then blame it on my birthday
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Old 08-09-2017, 01:02 PM   #30
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Well La Te Da.

This could be a good discussion (about trad), if you guys would let it.
Some folks experience the problem. Some don't.

I've had TP so bad, that I didn't even like talking about it, or even reading about it for fear it would start stomping on me again.

The classifieds are for Sponsors, and Non Sponsors alike, but Sponsors can post their goods anywhere they want, as long as it pertains to the dedicated forum topics.

This pertains, whether it applies to everyone, or not.

Leave him alone, and let him help folks if he can.
If you don't have anything positive to say, then don't say anything.

Rick
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Old 08-09-2017, 01:12 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetinlow660 View Post
I basically think that classified adds should be in the classifieds. I'm glad some people have gotten help that needed it but I don't come to the trad page to be solicited.

but maybe I'm being an A (o) I don't know. If so then blame it on my birthday
This is not a classified ad -- or "spam" -- at all. I see a legitimate search for information from a long-time member who happens to be a sponsor. He simply asks who would try a couple of specific changes to address target panic, if it presented itself. It's like a phone survey, if you don't wish to participate, just say so.
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Old 08-09-2017, 01:36 PM   #32
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Then he should have been straightforward about his position and angle in his original post. Imo he took a deceptive approach and has no credibility.

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Old 08-09-2017, 01:43 PM   #33
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Oh come on now Gary.

Andy was not trying to deceive anyone at all.
He's been around here, and around here as a sponsor for a long time.
Anyone who has been here for very long knows that.

He simply initiated his topic in a way to maybe spur some interest in folks who might need some help.

Rick
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Old 08-09-2017, 02:00 PM   #34
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He initiated his topic in a way that made it seem he had the issue and was seeking a way to resolve it and throwing an idea out there for feed back on that idea.

Not a big fan of solicitors. Advertisements are great. Next year when I'm ready for another shell blind I know who to go to on this forum to get a quality one. If I need a great hunt with my trad gear on an exotic ranch there are a couple of people who are sponsors here I can go to and know I'll have a great hunt.

His product or whatever he sells may work for some but to me his approach with this post was not open in up front.

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Old 08-09-2017, 02:01 PM   #35
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And btw I don't panic about much except burning a good steak on the grill.

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Old 08-09-2017, 02:03 PM   #36
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Well La Te Da.

This could be a good discussion (about trad), if you guys would let it.
Some folks experience the problem. Some don't.

I've had TP so bad, that I didn't even like talking about it, or even reading about it for fear it would start stomping on me again.

The classifieds are for Sponsors, and Non Sponsors alike, but Sponsors can post their goods anywhere they want, as long as it pertains to the dedicated forum topics.

This pertains, whether it applies to everyone, or not.

Leave him alone, and let him help folks if he can.
If you don't have anything positive to say, then don't say anything.

Rick
Well the king of trad has spoken. I guess I'll be quiet now.
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Old 08-09-2017, 02:05 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRT View Post
He initiated his topic in a way that made it seem he had the issue and was seeking a way to resolve it and throwing an idea out there for feed back on that idea.

Not a big fan of solicitors. Advertisements are great. Next year when I'm ready for another shell blind I know who to go to on this forum to get a quality one. If I need a great hunt with my trad gear on an exotic ranch there are a couple of people who are sponsors here I can go to and know I'll have a great hunt.

His product or whatever he sells may work for some but to me his approach with this post was not open in up front.

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He was asking a question about some things he might start introducing into his program (for trad shooters), and wanted feedback on the idea. That's it. Plain & simple.

Rick
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Old 08-09-2017, 02:07 PM   #38
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Well the king of trad has spoken. I guess I'll be quiet now.
If only you knew how stupid that reads.

Dear Lord guys. ( Shaking me head. )

Rick
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Old 08-09-2017, 02:09 PM   #39
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I'm out of this one.

AJ. Good luck with your search for new ways to helps folks (even the trad guys) with your programs.

Rick
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Old 08-09-2017, 02:15 PM   #40
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Rick my point is when you don't agree with something or someone on here, or the nature of a post and whether it should or shouldn't be on the trad page we should all take your word as gold, but we aren't allowed to voice our own opinion. I know you can shoot and you probably have forgotten more about traditional archery than I'll ever know, and from what I here you are a great guy. I'm not trying to make enemies or create animosity I simply don't like being told to essentially "be quiet" because my opinion doesn't line with yours.

No hard feelings and hope to meet some day and let you out shoot me.
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Old 08-09-2017, 02:17 PM   #41
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If only you knew how stupid that reads.

Dear Lord guys. ( Shaking me head. )

Rick
So does a grown man typing "shaking me (y) head".

But I understand his point now that you clarified it Rick.

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Old 08-09-2017, 02:40 PM   #42
shortstroke 91
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Guys, there was nothing misleading in the original post. If you look at his name and read the question he asked, it can't be too hard to see that he was asking said question in hopes of soliciting information that might help him help other people inflicted with TP.
Just a guy looking to see what other people might think could be helpful.

The BUTTHURT is strong today for sure.

Snowflakes unite......
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Old 08-09-2017, 02:44 PM   #43
DRT
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Yeah you're way wrong. "Switching shooting styles" does not say this is a sales pitch.

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Old 08-09-2017, 03:20 PM   #44
Hunter Todd
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51 more days.....................................then it'll ALL be better!
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Old 08-09-2017, 03:50 PM   #45
Bisch
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Wow!!!!!

Bisch


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Old 08-09-2017, 04:55 PM   #46
sweetinlow660
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shortstroke 91 View Post
Guys, there was nothing misleading in the original post. If you look at his name and read the question he asked, it can't be too hard to see that he was asking said question in hopes of soliciting information that might help him help other people inflicted with TP.
Just a guy looking to see what other people might think could be helpful.

The BUTTHURT is strong today for sure.

Snowflakes unite......
I never said it was hard to distinguish his intent. As a matter of fact I called it for what it blatantly was, a marketing ploy to sell TP Guru advice. I hope the guy helps a million people with their TP. He/l I may need his program after today. But If I do I'll look him up at the camp fire or on the classified page.

Bottom line is some of us didn't agree with the post or it's intent, some of us did and saw a completely different intent. I really don't think anyone actually cares in the big scheme of things.

That being said there is really no need for name calling. Myself included (the king of trad ) comment was uncalled for and unnecessary.
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Old 08-09-2017, 05:09 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speck1 View Post
Who doesn't experience some increased anxiety when they draw on an animal?
That's part of the rush. The first time I tried to draw on a bear at 15 yards I couldn't pull my bow back. Took 10 minutes to regain my composure and make the shot. That's why I love it. Was that target panic? I don't know, but I did not require therapy or a safe space to be able to shoot again. I have friends that are deadly on 3D bucks but can't make the same shot on a live buck. They just let themselves get too shook up. The key is controlling the adrenaline rush enough to make a good shot.
There is a difference between excitement and anxiety.

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Old 08-09-2017, 05:38 PM   #48
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Whoa this escalated quickly. Yeah, if you have been here a while, you know AJ the TP (Target Panic) Guru sells stuff to help with Target Panic. I think it is completely reasonable for the guy to ask a group of Trad guys whether or not Trad guys would be willing to give up Trad to fix TP issues encountered while shooting Trad. Plenty of guys ask questions on this forum about their business and who would prefer this or that. Personally, I didn't see any hidden agenda... and if anything, it sparked a good conversation about what Target Panic is. Target Panic is a real thing. Granted there are debates all over the place on how to diagnose it... what forms it comes in... and more importantly how to fix or prevent it, but I didn't see it as a sales pitch personally. So, I answered the man's question. Probably the shortest response I have ever given. I also wouldn't use submliminal/relaxation CDs either, but that question wasn't asked

So in same vein... why didn't the pitch forks come out for this post a week or so back?

http://discussions.texasbowhunter.co...d.php?t=655314

I didn't see anybody get all fired up about that blatant sales post on the trad forum.

Last edited by SwampRabbit; 08-09-2017 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 08-09-2017, 05:55 PM   #49
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The OP seemed like a question to me, not sure why it got heated? I've never had TP but know several guys that do, and I want nothing to do with it!

FYI shanking a shot, excitement on the shot, and so on, isn't necessarily TP.
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Old 08-09-2017, 06:02 PM   #50
DRT
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I've been on TBH a while. Had no idea who this guy was until it was pointed out that all you had to do was look at the name of the poster to know what it was about.

I do not see a problem with the meat thread other than where it was posted which was why I asked that guy if it was for trad bow hunters only.

I don't give a rip if this "guru" sells his service here or not. Snake oil is snake oil no matter which section it's in. I had no clue it was a sales pitch until the first reply I posted earlier.

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