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Old 06-18-2017, 09:19 PM   #1
arrowslinger
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Default Deer lease agreement

Long story short. I sent the full amount of the lease in April. We got word the landowner was going to double the rates, the guy running the lease told me he didn't know how much the lease would go up or possibly have to give up land to keep it the same rate. I found another place to get on so asked for my money back. He said he would send it back, received a check but it was minus 650$ deposit, he now claims that it was non refundable, I attached the latest lease agreement I signed it does not say non refundable deposit. We have been going back and forth so I told him the heck with it I'll keep my spot and now he says I forfeited my spot and I'm not invited back? What can I do to get my money back?

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Old 06-18-2017, 09:23 PM   #2
Matt_C
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Small claims court and sue him for the maximum of $10,000.
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Old 06-18-2017, 09:34 PM   #3
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Judge Judy
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Old 06-18-2017, 09:41 PM   #4
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I had this same thing happen between a good friend and myself. The difference is, I wrote in a non-refundable deposit clause. He and three of his friends decided to bail 3 weeks before the last payment was due and was upset I refunded the first half minus the deposit. He couldn't get past it and we are no longer friends but he signed the agreement. I would do exactly as Matt C said and at least threaten to drag him to small claims court and go for the full amount possible. That threat may back him off. He cannot legally keep money that is not his own.
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Old 06-18-2017, 10:04 PM   #5
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Go ahead and send a30 day demand letter

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Old 06-18-2017, 10:11 PM   #6
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Drop the hammer on him and let him know it won't be the last time.
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Old 06-18-2017, 10:13 PM   #7
Livin'2hunt
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Originally Posted by SC-Texas View Post
Go ahead and send a30 day demand letter

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Yes, I forgot this part. It needs to be certified mail.
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Old 06-18-2017, 10:14 PM   #8
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Yes, I forgot this part. It needs to be certified mail.
I will send one tomorrow.



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Old 06-18-2017, 10:28 PM   #9
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He is saying what we signed in 2015 states non refundable but we signed new membership papers since then.

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Old 06-18-2017, 10:31 PM   #10
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Wow. And that is only one page of a huntring contract/lease agreement. I'm kinda glad i can no longer afford a deer lease. Crazy.
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Old 06-18-2017, 11:25 PM   #11
flywise
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So, is the contract valid if you agree to pay a certain amount of money
Then they decide to go up on the lease?
Seems to me the non refundable part is void because you agreed on 1 set of terms them only backed out bucause those turns changed.
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Old 06-19-2017, 12:48 AM   #12
Muddy Bud
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I went through something like this once. Sent a guy a deposit for a lease in Falfurias to hold a spot for me. He was getting rid of two members but couldn't do it till the end of their lease term. Well once their term ended I couldn't find this guy. Wouldn't answer the phone on the one number I had for him.
So I posted a thread on here with the guys name and house phone number warning others of his antics. Well some one on here I won't say who pm'd his place of employment, house address and cell phone number. Boy was he surprised when I called him at his place of employment. He started getting smart with me and said the deposit was non refundable.
So when I told him I could be at his house by the time he got off work to put a boot in his @$$, he did a 180 and quickly apologized.

Check was in my mail box 4 days later.

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Old 06-19-2017, 05:24 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Bud View Post
I went through something like this once. Sent a guy a deposit for a lease in Falfurias to hold a spot for me. He was getting rid of two members but couldn't do it till the end of their lease term. Well once their term ended I couldn't find this guy. Wouldn't answer the phone on the one number I had for him.
So I posted a thread on here with the guys name and house phone number warning others of his antics. Well some one on here I won't say who pm'd his place of employment, house address and cell phone number. Boy was he surprised when I called him at his place of employment. He started getting smart with me and said the deposit was non refundable.
So when I told him I could be at his house by the time he got off work to put a boot in his @$$, he did a 180 and quickly apologized.

Check was in my mail box 4 days later.
LMAO
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Old 06-19-2017, 07:43 AM   #14
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I'm sure I will have to fight to the end to get it, I should have known not to do a lease with a guy from New York city.

The agreement where it says non refundable I wasn't even on the lease that year.


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Old 06-19-2017, 07:47 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flywise View Post
So, is the contract valid if you agree to pay a certain amount of money
Then they decide to go up on the lease?
Seems to me the non refundable part is void because you agreed on 1 set of terms them only backed out bucause those turns changed.
This ^^^
The contract terms changed when the original fee was increased IMO. Kinda like changing the rules at halftime ain't it?
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:21 AM   #16
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This ^^^
The contract terms changed when the original fee was increased IMO. Kinda like changing the rules at halftime ain't it?
This is also what I explained to him.

He always liked to change the rules at halftime to better suit his needs. Like when he hung a stand 247 yards from my "area" when his rules in the 2014-15 agreement showed a 500 yards buffer. Rules on this place only applied to us not him.

I agreed to a 4k acres lease for 1600$ if he raises the price or let's land go to stay at the same price I am out and want my money back. If we stay the same acreage and price I'll pay the 1600 before I loose 650 and hunt 2 leases, he then said no I forfeited my membership.

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Old 06-19-2017, 08:27 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by arrowslinger View Post
This is also what I explained to him.

He always liked to change the rules at halftime to better suit his needs. Like when he hung a stand 247 yards from my "area" when his rules in the 2014-15 agreement showed a 500 yards buffer. Rules on this place only applied to us not him.

I agreed to a 4k acres lease for 1600$ if he raises the price or let's land go to stay at the same price I am out and want my money back. If we stay the same acreage and price I'll pay the 1600 before I loose 650 and hunt 2 leases, he then said no I forfeited my membership.

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Take his sorry *** to court
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:30 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrowslinger View Post
I'm sure I will have to fight to the end to get it, I should have known not to do a lease with a guy from New York city.

The agreement where it says non refundable I wasn't even on the lease that year.


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New York? You're lease manager lives in New York and hunts in Texas?

Weird

or was he born in New York City, and lives here now?
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:32 AM   #19
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New York? You're lease manager lives in New York and hunts in Texas?

Weird

or was he born in New York City, and lives here now?
From new York lives in Texas and our lease is in Oklahoma.



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Old 06-19-2017, 08:39 AM   #20
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Here is what he sent out for this year. It says nothing about non refundable.


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Old 06-19-2017, 08:41 AM   #21
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He sent me this from 2014-15 saying this is where it says non refundable. I didn't join the lease until 2015-16 season so this makes no sense to me.

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Old 06-19-2017, 08:49 AM   #22
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My conversation would be "Send my money back or i'll see you opening morning!"
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Old 06-19-2017, 08:56 AM   #23
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Wait, wait, wait.

This guys name is Buck "Daddy" Helm? Like make the check out to buck daddy helm?

Awesome
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:04 AM   #24
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I hold deposits unless spots are filled. Once they are filled then deposits are sent back, unless had to sell a spot minus the deposit amount.
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:35 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by elliscountyhog View Post
I hold deposits unless spots are filled. Once they are filled then deposits are sent back, unless had to sell a spot minus the deposit amount.
I can see this in normal issues, but this guy got on the lease at an aggreed price, then gets a note that lease is doubling. He decided he is not good with that lease since it is not what was aggreed on, so he is out. He should not be screwed out of his money. Guy should give it back to him..
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:38 AM   #26
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I can see this in normal issues, but this guy got on the lease at an aggreed price, then gets a note that lease is doubling. He decided he is not good with that lease since it is not what was aggreed on, so he is out. He should not be screwed out of his money. Guy should give it back to him..
Deposit and agreement should be based on an amount. If amount changed and you no longer agree then YES the deposit should be returned.
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Old 06-19-2017, 10:51 AM   #27
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I hold deposits unless spots are filled. Once they are filled then deposits are sent back, unless had to sell a spot minus the deposit amount.
If that's what's agreed upon then I would be fine with this, but nowhere does it say this. Now his new solution to keep the price the same is to give up acreage and keep the same number of hunters, I don't agree to that. Part of the land he is giving up is also my number one stand.



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Old 06-19-2017, 10:57 AM   #28
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I've been told on here 1000 times that all you need is a handshake so apparently the mistake you made was having a contract.

Is this the entire agreement?
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Old 06-19-2017, 11:00 AM   #29
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When we found the new lease and told Paul we found the place and were going to look at it he was beside himself to get the new contact information, he even asked if he could "run" the new place. He wanted the lease agreement to take to his landowner to negotiate with him, it was at this point that he got completely sideways with me and said I was trying to sabotage his club by not allowing this. He said that I was going to take all of his members and Destroy his opportunity to negotiate with the landowner. Then he proceeded to say that if I did not take any of his members with me that it would be more likely to get my money back.

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Old 06-19-2017, 11:00 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by arrowslinger View Post
If that's what's agreed upon then I would be fine with this, but nowhere does it say this. Now his new solution to keep the price the same is to give up acreage and keep the same number of hunters, I don't agree to that. Part of the land he is giving up is also my number one stand.



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I had this exact issue come up a couple years ago when we lost land due to the floods. However, we pay by the acre so we lost acreage and price went down.
Sounds like you had a money hungry lease manager and in his mind a deposit is non refundable no matter what the circumstance was/is. that is probably his profit money after leasing the spots. All you can do is threaten and hope he pays up.
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Old 06-19-2017, 11:07 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by elliscountyhog View Post
I had this exact issue come up a couple years ago when we lost land due to the floods. However, we pay by the acre so we lost acreage and price went down.
Sounds like you had a money hungry lease manager and in his mind a deposit is non refundable no matter what the circumstance was/is. that is probably his profit money after leasing the spots. All you can do is threaten and hope he pays up.
He made plenty of profit this is how it broke down

4k acres x 4$ a acre= 16k
7 returning member x 1600=11,200
5 new members x 1900=9500

11200 + 9500 = 21000

He was making 5k a year off of us and him and his 2 brothers were hunting free.

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Old 06-19-2017, 11:22 AM   #32
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A) did you sign the lease agreement where it states refunds are non-refundable? (I see the blank one he provided you...but don't see a signature..)
Have him provide that to you or tell him he can provide it to a judge.
B) Did you sign a lease contract that states the fees/conditions can be changed at any time?
Have him provide that to you or tell him he can provide it to a judge.

Sounds like a shyster.
Post his name/lease up so other TBHer's don't get taken for a ride as well.
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Old 06-19-2017, 11:43 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by systemnt View Post
A) did you sign the lease agreement where it states refunds are non-refundable? (I see the blank one he provided you...but don't see a signature..)
Have him provide that to you or tell him he can provide it to a judge.
B) Did you sign a lease contract that states the fees/conditions can be changed at any time?
Have him provide that to you or tell him he can provide it to a judge.

Sounds like a shyster.
Post his name/lease up so other TBHer's don't get taken for a ride as well.
No did not sign that or agree to the price could change.


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Old 06-19-2017, 11:48 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by systemnt View Post
A) did you sign the lease agreement where it states refunds are non-refundable? (I see the blank one he provided you...but don't see a signature..)
Have him provide that to you or tell him he can provide it to a judge.
B) Did you sign a lease contract that states the fees/conditions can be changed at any time?
Have him provide that to you or tell him he can provide it to a judge.

Sounds like a shyster.
Post his name/lease up so other TBHer's don't get taken for a ride as well.
This ^^^^^^^^^
All you need to do is ask him to provide you with your signature on a document that outlines the non refundable language. And to also provide you with a document you signed saying that conditions of contract can change with out notice.
Then I would put, if you are unable to provide these, then I expect my money in 5 days or less. If not returned in 5 days, I will be moving to the legal system to assist, a which point you can provide those documents to the court.
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Old 06-19-2017, 11:54 AM   #35
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Or Just whip his ***!
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Old 06-19-2017, 11:57 AM   #36
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Small claims court
^^ this
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Old 06-19-2017, 05:06 PM   #37
SC-Texas
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He sent me this from 2014-15 saying this is where it says non refundable. I didn't join the lease until 2015-16 season so this makes no sense to me.

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Ask him to send you one with your signature on it.

You need to draft a demand letter demanding return of your money in 30 days. You will want to send two copies, one by regular mail and one by certified mail with a return receipt requested card. That is a green card. After the 30 days have elapsed, you will go to his local small claims court and file against him.

Where does that guy live?

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Old 06-19-2017, 05:08 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by SC-Texas View Post
Ask him to send you one with your signature on it.

You need to draft a demand letter demanding return of your money in 30 days. You will want to send two copies, one by regular mail and one by certified mail with a return receipt requested card. That is a green card. After the 30 days have elapsed, you will go to his local small claims court and file against him.

Where does that guy live?

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He lives in Prosper

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Old 06-19-2017, 05:21 PM   #39
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Issues for him:
*price is NOT what you agreed upon when deposit was delivered
*depositor was under the assumption the lease would be the same price
*if he filled your spot, he's not "out of pocket" and a jury or judge will side in your favor 99.9% of the time - he technically can't "profit" from your deposit.
*if he's found in "breach of contract" - it's triple damages, plus attorney's fee's (I rattled a knuckleheads cage with this one a few years ago...would have cost him around $15,000...he sent the check back quick)


Issues for you:
*generally deposits are non-refundable unless stated otherwise - that's why its a deposit, to hold a spot
*contract does not have to be signed - a contract is offer, acceptance and consideration

Use the legal system...its there for you to use and it costs around $15 to file....plus he's not gonna want to get an attorney.
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Old 06-19-2017, 05:23 PM   #40
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LMAO....Buck Daddy Helm.....
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Old 06-19-2017, 05:24 PM   #41
RLB
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Trophy Antler Chasers Hunting Club? That's kinda ghey anyway.....
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Old 06-19-2017, 05:28 PM   #42
arrowslinger
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Trophy Antler Chasers Hunting Club? That's kinda ghey anyway.....
Lol....yes it is. Must be a yankee thing never could bring myself to call our deer lease this name.

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Old 06-19-2017, 05:34 PM   #43
arrowslinger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLB View Post
Issues for him:
*price is NOT what you agreed upon when deposit was delivered
*depositor was under the assumption the lease would be the same price
*if he filled your spot, he's not "out of pocket" and a jury or judge will side in your favor 99.9% of the time - he technically can't "profit" from your deposit.
*if he's found in "breach of contract" - it's triple damages, plus attorney's fee's (I rattled a knuckleheads cage with this one a few years ago...would have cost him around $15,000...he sent the check back quick)


Issues for you:
*generally deposits are non-refundable unless stated otherwise - that's why its a deposit, to hold a spot
*contract does not have to be signed - a contract is offer, acceptance and consideration

Use the legal system...its there for you to use and it costs around $15 to file....plus he's not gonna want to get an attorney.
I understand that it's a fine line with the refundable vs non-refundable. If the lease dissolves he will have no other option to repay everyone. This is not just me 4 others are in the same boat, my dad cancelled his check in when all of this blew up.

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Old 06-19-2017, 05:38 PM   #44
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The plot thickens. Stand by. Lol.

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Old 06-19-2017, 06:06 PM   #45
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Mistakes made on both ends. He asked for deposit and you sent in the "expected" full amount. Sounds like at that time there was no change in pricing or amount of land. If you had just sent in your deposit, it would be easy to ask for it to be refunded if the lease agreement changed.
I'm with those that think deposits are usually non-refundable unless pricing or conditions change. Lease begins April 1, so you have been part of it for the last 2 1/2 months.
Next time only deposit prior to signing lease agreement.
And of course he could have easily explained to you that your deposit would be refunded if your spot is filled and paid in full by someone else.
Hope it turns out well for you.
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Old 06-19-2017, 06:33 PM   #46
wow
Ten Point
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Sheridan
Hunt In: Colorado, Lavaca, and any where im invited
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I just work off of a handshake. When you screw up [ have all 3 grandsons approach you. Baby is 64 229
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Old 07-24-2017, 02:10 PM   #47
arrowslinger
Ten Point
 
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Crandall Texas
Hunt In: Red River Co. Texas
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Just to update everyone, I received full refund of all my money.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
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Old 07-24-2017, 02:22 PM   #48
8pointer
Pope & Young
 
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: San Antonio, TX
Hunt In: Schleicher county
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrowslinger View Post
Just to update everyone, I received full refund of all my money.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
Good deal. Glad it worked out for you in the end!
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