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Old 04-18-2018, 08:57 AM   #1
big papa
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Default Duty caliber question

I know that this is going to start a big debate but that is not what I am looking for. I am a Patrol Sgt with an East Texas Sheriff's Office. I have been in Law Enforcement for 20 years. I know what the FBI says about calibers but I am wanting to know what other Peace Officers think about what is the best caliber to carry on duty. Throughout my career I have carried a .40, .357 Sig, .41 magnum, and am currently carrying .45 ACP. What do you believe is the best duty caliber and why?
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Old 04-18-2018, 08:59 AM   #2
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i have carried a 357 sig all of my career util my department issued us glock 17's a little over a year ago.
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Old 04-18-2018, 09:06 AM   #3
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Is that a 9mm?
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Old 04-18-2018, 09:09 AM   #4
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Is that a 9mm?
Yes
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Old 04-18-2018, 09:10 AM   #5
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How do you like it?
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Old 04-18-2018, 09:15 AM   #6
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I’ve carried 45,40, and now 9mm. With today’s bullet technology I prefer the 9mm.
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Old 04-18-2018, 09:18 AM   #7
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Iíve carried 45,40, and now 9mm. With todayís bullet technology I prefer the 9mm.
I agree with this. I still carry a .45 on duty and a glock 19 9mm off duty.
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Old 04-18-2018, 09:22 AM   #8
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Carry a Sig 45. I carry a Sig 40 off duty. I prefer the 40 over the 45.

45 is a large, slow round. We shot the 40, 45 and 9mm into cars, windows, winshields etc. 40 was the way to go. Our department is transitioning to the 40 right now.

Feds are going back to the 9mm. I am not a fan. But thats me. But you can usually fill about 65 rounds in one mag. You may need it.
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Old 04-18-2018, 09:27 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glen View Post
Iíve carried 45,40, and now 9mm. With todayís bullet technology I prefer the 9mm.
Same here. Glock 19 on duty and off, unless I'm wearing super light clothes like running or the gym then it's a S&W Shield in 9mm.
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Old 04-18-2018, 09:30 AM   #10
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I have carried 40 for all of my 18 years thus far. I recently bought a 9mm conversion barrel for my glock 22. Once I get to run it and the mags I'll probably swap over. As mentioned, todays bullets in the 9 are just as effective. That and lighter recoil would allow faster follow ups.

That said, I see A LOT of bullet wounds and not in some ballistic gel or pigs etc. In the last few years I have been severely disappointed in the mighty 45 acp.
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Old 04-18-2018, 09:41 AM   #11
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I carried 357 Magnum, .45 ACP, and 357 Sig. The Sig 357 is my current duty caliber in the P226. The weapon fits my hand very well and it's very accurate.

I do carry a M&P Shield in .45 when off duty. I'm looking into the Sig 320, FN 509 and the CZ P10 in 9MM as well.
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Old 04-18-2018, 09:51 AM   #12
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I am not nor have I ever been a LEO. I have on occasion worked with them as part of my job. I carried a 40. While with the chief deputy of a local county we were discussing what caliber he chose ( had a beautiful colt ). He said he once had to shoot a suspect several times with his 45 acp and the guy just kept coming. He said that he switched to a 38 super and never had a problem since. I had no reason to doubt him.
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Old 04-18-2018, 10:51 AM   #13
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Been in it for over 30 yrs, and I've carried several types of firearms from 357 magnums, 9mm, 40 and 45. They were all types of manufacturers also from Colt revolvers, Smith & Wesson autos and revolvers, Kimber, Glock's, and Beretta's. I currently carry a Glock 19 9mm. Being the firearms instructor at my agency for over 20 of those years, I've seen the trend go from revolvers to autos and from 357's to 9mm's and then 40's, along with the 45's off and on. With bullet technologies the current trend has shifted back towards the 9mm for duty and training due to cost factors(cheaper to shoot and practice with).
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Old 04-18-2018, 10:54 AM   #14
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9 or 40
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Old 04-18-2018, 10:58 AM   #15
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9mm vs .40 Cal vs .45 ACP... Cinder Block Test
watch this on youtube
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Old 04-18-2018, 11:10 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by eaglegolfj View Post
9mm vs .40 Cal vs .45 ACP... Cinder Block Test
watch this on youtube
I watched the video. Interesting but it seems to have no bearing when discussing duty ammo.
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Old 04-18-2018, 11:26 AM   #17
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I keep hearing "bullet technoligy" enlighten me and I may still be in doubt of the 9mm. Then again I may change my mind. What duty ammo are we speaking of??
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Old 04-18-2018, 11:59 AM   #18
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I watched the video. Interesting but it seems to have no bearing when discussing duty ammo.

After a discussion on bullets penetrating phonebooks in my academy the revered firearms instructor said..............bad guys aint made of phonebooks

I suspect that applies here as well
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Old 04-18-2018, 12:05 PM   #19
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Crooked- years ago everyone was pushing a 147 grain pill out of a 4 inch 9mm. It was getting about 950 FPS- Bullets were not doing what they needed to do. Now the 124grain bullet is running 1150FPS out of same gun and bullets are very effective. I watched a lot of stuff get shot with 124 9mm and a .40. Both shooting Gold Dot. I’ll take the 9mm about 60% of the time over the 40. I’ll would say the 40 does do better on car doors but the 9mm does better in soft tissue
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Old 04-18-2018, 01:07 PM   #20
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Crooked- years ago everyone was pushing a 147 grain pill out of a 4 inch 9mm. It was getting about 950 FPS- Bullets were not doing what they needed to do. Now the 124grain bullet is running 1150FPS out of same gun and bullets are very effective. I watched a lot of stuff get shot with 124 9mm and a .40. Both shooting Gold Dot. Iíll take the 9mm about 60% of the time over the 40. Iíll would say the 40 does do better on car doors but the 9mm does better in soft tissue

This is why I am not a big fan of the 9mm. True life shoot out with one of our officers. Fat POS survived and kept advancing towards Travland. Travland dam near lost his leg in that shoot out. Travland shot this dude 3 times center mass and one to the thigh.

Fat POS should have had a body bag ID on his toe. I had to watch over him in the hospital. We have used Speer Gold Dots for as long as we I can remember. We were using the 9mm for the women officer and recoil at the time.

http://www.pecos.net/news/arch2002/012202p.htm

The shootout involved three former Pecos residents in Odessa Friday afternoon and his estranged wife dead and Cpl. Greg Travland is listed in stable condition at Medical Center Hospital with a gunshot wound to the leg.

Estela Cadena Ramon, 36, was shot and killed by Joe Albert Ramon at her place of employment in downtown Odessa. Joe Ramon then wounded Travland in the leg, but the officer was able to shoot Ramon several times in the chest while being wounded in the leg by Ramon, according to the Odessa Police Department.
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Old 04-18-2018, 01:46 PM   #21
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Looked at article it it was 2002- I would almost be positive y’all were issued 147 grain pills. Everyone was. 124 grain is a different animal
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Old 04-18-2018, 03:10 PM   #22
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I keep hearing "bullet technoligy" enlighten me and I may still be in doubt of the 9mm. Then again I may change my mind. What duty ammo are we speaking of??
The most common duty ammos are by far (I think) the Federal HST and its family member (same company) the Speer Gold Dot. There are others like Winchester that make similar duty rounds.

It is not technology really but engeneering. All of the duty ammo companies go by the FBI recommendation or standard. You can like it or hate it or disagree with it but it is what it is. The FBI came to the conclusion that the bullet needed to travel a minimum of 12 inches deep and in order to have a fair chance of passing into a vital organ or artery. To counter that however they did not want the bullet you traveled more than 18 inches so as not to over penetrate and endanger someone else.

Before that standard came out bullet companies variously made a bowl with that would go as deep as possible or expand as much as possible with little regard to actual affect us. In the mid-1980s we carried the Winchester Silvertip bullet which expanded greatly but really did not have an effective penetration. You could get it to expand almost to the size of a quarter but would only go five or 6 inches deep. I believe that was the round Houston in the Miami FBI shootout with the two agents were killed. I believe that help prompt the change in bullets and absolutely caused the invention of the .40S&W round.

So the police duty ammo companies are now making all of their rounds to fall within that 12 inch to 18 inch gap. Most of the rounds basically fall right in the middle. It does not matter what you can potentially get out of a particular round. They might be able to engineer a .40 that will go 30 inches deep in ballistic gelatin. They might be able to engineer a .45 that will go through two or three people. The companies are not making the ammo to see how deep they can go or even how big they can expand however. They are making them to fall within that predetermined gap. It does not matter if you shoot a 9mm or .40 or .45, they were all penetrate the same and exoand almost identically.

If we were talking about a magnum hunting round then there might be a lot more debate however we are not. They companies in order to comply with the FBI recommendations are engineering these bullets to perform identically.

I have only check Federal and Speer but you can go on their website and look at their test. They would not just in bare gelatin. There are tests in the various rounds they make into gelatin after it has been fired through heavy clothing, two sheets of drywall, the pieces of car door gauged steel, auto windshields, marine plywood, etc., all to simulate real world obstacles and then into the gelatin. You can click on various rounds and compare the actual gelatin results as well as the recovered rounds. There is very little difference between any of the rounds after being fired through the obstacles and even through those obstacles the rounds almost always retain nearly 100% of their weight.

After those bullets are engineered to perform the same, the only real difference is number of rounds and recoil or speed back on target.

I doubt there is much new technology but companies simply being given a problem, using a known standard (desired penetration) and then designing bullets that met that standard. I am confident that if you told companies to design a .40 that would go 24 inches deep, they could deliver. If you asked them to engineer a .45 to expand over 1.25 inches, they could deliver that. That is not what they were asked to make however.

As far as shooting someone any number of times, like with shooting wild animals, shot location. Merely saying center mass is meaningless. I have seen people center punched with a .45 with an exit wound out the back. The guy recovered completely. The round slid right along side the heart and hit nothing vital. I saw another guy hit with a FMJ .380 that took a couple of steps and fell dead. I am guessing that you have seen likewise. In the case you mentioned the question should be, would another caliber from the same manufacturer that hit in the exact same entry point have rendered different results. I suspect the answer would be no.

Like Quackerbox said, he has been disappointed in .45 performance and I am fairly confident that has been after working many shootings, going to autopsies, etc. You will still have people reading this that are absolutely certain of the man stopping effectiveness of the .45.

I wouldn’t want to be hit by any of them but it is my belief that the way they are engineered by the companies to a very specific standard, the results would be virtually identical. The only difference then is the aforementioned capacity and speed back on target.

in my opinion.
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Old 04-18-2018, 04:45 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvc184 View Post
The most common duty ammos are by far (I think) the Federal HST and its family member (same company) the Speer Gold Dot. There are others like Winchester that make similar duty rounds.

It is not technology really but engeneering. All of the duty ammo companies go by the FBI recommendation or standard. You can like it or hate it or disagree with it but it is what it is. The FBI came to the conclusion that the bullet needed to travel a minimum of 12 inches deep and in order to have a fair chance of passing into a vital organ or artery. To counter that however they did not want the bullet you traveled more than 18 inches so as not to over penetrate and endanger someone else.

Before that standard came out bullet companies variously made a bowl with that would go as deep as possible or expand as much as possible with little regard to actual affect us. In the mid-1980s we carried the Winchester Silvertip bullet which expanded greatly but really did not have an effective penetration. You could get it to expand almost to the size of a quarter but would only go five or 6 inches deep. I believe that was the round Houston in the Miami FBI shootout with the two agents were killed. I believe that help prompt the change in bullets and absolutely caused the invention of the .40S&W round.

So the police duty ammo companies are now making all of their rounds to fall within that 12 inch to 18 inch gap. Most of the rounds basically fall right in the middle. It does not matter what you can potentially get out of a particular round. They might be able to engineer a .40 that will go 30 inches deep in ballistic gelatin. They might be able to engineer a .45 that will go through two or three people. The companies are not making the ammo to see how deep they can go or even how big they can expand however. They are making them to fall within that predetermined gap. It does not matter if you shoot a 9mm or .40 or .45, they were all penetrate the same and exoand almost identically.

If we were talking about a magnum hunting round then there might be a lot more debate however we are not. They companies in order to comply with the FBI recommendations are engineering these bullets to perform identically.

I have only check Federal and Speer but you can go on their website and look at their test. They would not just in bare gelatin. There are tests in the various rounds they make into gelatin after it has been fired through heavy clothing, two sheets of drywall, the pieces of car door gauged steel, auto windshields, marine plywood, etc., all to simulate real world obstacles and then into the gelatin. You can click on various rounds and compare the actual gelatin results as well as the recovered rounds. There is very little difference between any of the rounds after being fired through the obstacles and even through those obstacles the rounds almost always retain nearly 100% of their weight.

After those bullets are engineered to perform the same, the only real difference is number of rounds and recoil or speed back on target.

I doubt there is much new technology but companies simply being given a problem, using a known standard (desired penetration) and then designing bullets that met that standard. I am confident that if you told companies to design a .40 that would go 24 inches deep, they could deliver. If you asked them to engineer a .45 to expand over 1.25 inches, they could deliver that. That is not what they were asked to make however.

As far as shooting someone any number of times, like with shooting wild animals, shot location. Merely saying center mass is meaningless. I have seen people center punched with a .45 with an exit wound out the back. The guy recovered completely. The round slid right along side the heart and hit nothing vital. I saw another guy hit with a FMJ .380 that took a couple of steps and fell dead. I am guessing that you have seen likewise. In the case you mentioned the question should be, would another caliber from the same manufacturer that hit in the exact same entry point have rendered different results. I suspect the answer would be no.

Like Quackerbox said, he has been disappointed in .45 performance and I am fairly confident that has been after working many shootings, going to autopsies, etc. You will still have people reading this that are absolutely certain of the man stopping effectiveness of the .45.

I wouldnít want to be hit by any of them but it is my belief that the way they are engineered by the companies to a very specific standard, the results would be virtually identical. The only difference then is the aforementioned capacity and speed back on target.

in my opinion.
Given what you've written, then I'm sold on the 9mm. More ammo, back on target after initial shot faster, and cheaper round to purchase.
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Old 04-18-2018, 04:49 PM   #24
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I have seen so many people live after being shot with high calibers and many who have been killed with the small calibers. I have spoke at length with those that conduct autopsies all day on the subject. Whatever caliber you shoot best with I would recommend using.
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Old 04-18-2018, 05:03 PM   #25
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any and all advances made in 9mm bullets/ammo were also made in 40 cal and 45 cal.

if you squat to pee the 9mm is your gun.
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Old 04-18-2018, 06:14 PM   #26
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Age old debate and still, personal preference on what you are comfortable with and can make reasonably accurate "kill" shots on the range/qualifying?

Been out of the LEO profession for too many years but saw progression from 38/357 Wheel's to the others.... 9mm, 40 S&W, always the 45 and to this day the debate continues?!

I agree it's in the ammunition and capability of the shooter as to what is best? I have lost, will never forget, a couple of buddies/colleagues in the past due to several reasons including rounds that did not take the assailant down. Honestly, mostly attributed to poor placement and bad judgement to the threat. One can view so many different training videos on ballistics, gel/model distribution, so on so forth and decide what you believe. I have also seen, in the old days, PCP assailants that a great Canine officer took down when a half dozen of us could not control short of a well placed head shot?

There are so many variables that affect "deadly force" results that favor the LEO, IMO. Only round I guarantee will "take down" the perp is the 454 Cassule, but again...you have to hit them?? Not much help, but my old/outdated/not in harm's way choice is:

1. 45
2. 40 S&W
3. 9mm and ALL (double stack magazines...PERIOD!)

Whatever...God Bless all of you still serving...I could/would not be able to face what you all do each day with so much hate and disrespect for the badge!
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Old 04-18-2018, 07:51 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by tvc184 View Post
Like Quackerbox said, he has been disappointed in .45 performance and I am fairly confident that has been after working many shootings, going to autopsies, etc. You will still have people reading this that are absolutely certain of the man stopping effectiveness of the .45.

I wouldn¬’t want to be hit by any of them but it is my belief that the way they are engineered by the companies to a very specific standard, the results would be virtually identical. The only difference then is the aforementioned capacity and speed back on target.

in my opinion.


You would be correct and I couldnt agree more on all accounts. Advances in technology have evened the playin field for the 'squat to pee' 9mm.

I am also a believer in what I guess you could call divine intervention. If the man upstairs says its your day, well its your day. For instance...

In recent history...bad guy takes 22 rounds about his body from two calibers that I know of. He lives.

Another guy gets 13 rounds of 9mm causing 17 different holes. Every major bone in arms and legs are broken (both sides). Even his pelvis is cracked. Deputy did not miss with a single round. While he goes poo in a bag today. He lived.

Girl takes 41 bygawd magnum to the temple at less than 6 feet. Her eyeball is hanging out of her head when she gets off the helicopter. Guess what....she lived.

My favorite: houstone member gets run over by car in a fight. Two weeks later he's crutching his way out of a shoot out. Shoot out is nearly over and he shakes his hands at the opposing group of shooters mocking them as they run. One last .380 round is fired from over 100 feet away. Round goes between two wrought iron fences, across the street and bounces off the asphalt. After the skip the FMJ 380 strikes houstone between the clavicle and shoulder blade. DRT. It was his day.

All that being said and whatever you decide to carry it. Train, train and train some more. A gun you cant run isnt worth much more than a crappy boomerang
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Old 04-18-2018, 10:21 PM   #28
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You would be correct and I couldnt agree more on all accounts. Advances in technology have evened the playin field for the 'squat to pee' 9mm.

I am also a believer in what I guess you could call divine intervention. If the man upstairs says its your day, well its your day. For instance...

In recent history...bad guy takes 22 rounds about his body from two calibers that I know of. He lives.

Another guy gets 13 rounds of 9mm causing 17 different holes. Every major bone in arms and legs are broken (both sides). Even his pelvis is cracked. Deputy did not miss with a single round. While he goes poo in a bag today. He lived.

Girl takes 41 bygawd magnum to the temple at less than 6 feet. Her eyeball is hanging out of her head when she gets off the helicopter. Guess what....she lived.

My favorite: houstone member gets run over by car in a fight. Two weeks later he's crutching his way out of a shoot out. Shoot out is nearly over and he shakes his hands at the opposing group of shooters mocking them as they run. One last .380 round is fired from over 100 feet away. Round goes between two wrought iron fences, across the street and bounces off the asphalt. After the skip the FMJ 380 strikes houstone between the clavicle and shoulder blade. DRT. It was his day.

All that being said and whatever you decide to carry it. Train, train and train some more. A gun you cant run isnt worth much more than a crappy boomerang


So all this brings us back to donít fight with your hand gun, use it to get back to your long gun?
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Old 04-18-2018, 10:30 PM   #29
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So all this brings us back to donít fight with your hand gun, use it to get back to your long gun?
Clint Smith would certainly agree

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Old 04-18-2018, 11:02 PM   #30
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Clint Smith would certainly agree

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Iím interested in your 40 to 9 conversion. I have been die hard 40 but my son went 9 and I can say the extra capacity and speed of return to target is attractive.

But I donít get to see all the real world results you do.
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Old 04-18-2018, 11:07 PM   #31
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Iím interested in your 40 to 9 conversion. I have been die hard 40 but my son went 9 and I can say the extra capacity and speed of return to target is attractive.

But I donít get to see all the real world results you do.
Waiting on next range practice day to check it out. I got a double diamond barrel and some magpull mags.

Cheaper than buying a new gun by far

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Old 04-18-2018, 11:27 PM   #32
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I've carried 45 and 40 for years. Switched out my stuff for all 9mm. There are just too many factors to say one is better than the other. Lots of dead people from all the major calibers and lots of live people that have been shot by all the major calibers.
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Old 04-19-2018, 12:42 AM   #33
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at one time or another i carried the 38 special, 9mm, 40 s&w, 45 acp , 38 super and 10mm,,,, during the course of those 30 years 28 of those as a firearms instructor... i have shot bullet proof vests, books, blocks of wood, soft wood, hard packed dirt, mud, fish, bowling pins, snakes, dogs. hogs. armadillos, deer and cars.....

if the only thing your shooting is human flesh,,, any of them can work "IF" you make good hits..... after the 10mm came out it was the last duty gun that ever road in my holster,,, and that for about 15 years,,,,,, if a barricade of any type any thickness the 10mm was always more effective at reaching the target on the other side... along with being highly effective on flesh targets even if that flesh was behind leather or hide

,,, it was the only of those rounds that could reliable penetrate a car from any angle and hit a target with good effectiveness in that car.... i was lucky and never had to shoot anyone but i spent several years on the back roads working traffic a long ways from back up,, in my case and because the probability of me having to shoot into a car was much higher than the average officer the clear winner was the 10mm and the best bullet was the winchester silvertip,, high velocity, good bullet weight and excellent weight retention after expansion with deep penetration , i literally spent thousands of dollars on ammo to learn all of this for myself,,,,, and i put the practice in and the recoil was a non issue for me and could fire it as fast as anyone with a 9mm and stay on target 100% of the time... but i choose to go that route ,,, to borrow the title of a good book " there is "no second place winner" in a gun fight,,
sometimes you need expansion, sometimes you need penetration, sometimes you need fast follow up shots,,, un like ballistic gelatin a human target has many variables,, you gotta prepare for the worse case,,, if you want to go home ,, if your only going to carry one pistol for many years it needs to be able to handle the thicker clothes of winter, sometimes a medium to light obstacle can reduce the 9mm effectiveness ,,, the added weight of the 40 does make it a better choice,,, the reduced speed of the 45 can reduce its effectiveness sometimes hollow points can become plugged and stop expansion from any round,,,

what ever you eventually decide on using,,, be the fastest on the draw you can, be more accurate than any one you get to shoot against, and a 80 or even 90 % score on your score card does mean that 10-20% of the time you could loose in a gun fight,, it is your life,, you gotta decide what percentage of bad shoots is acceptable to you.. so carry the fastest heaviest slug you can hit every time with. you might just have to shoot through a car door at an angle and the 9mm FAILS,, and the 40 and 45 are only a little better .... if you dont believe me go find a junker you can shoot and give them all a try and change the angle of impact and the distance,,, if you think the 9mm is awesome, good for you but be darn good with it,, be darn good with any of them,,, if your a 40 cal freak, good for you learn to use it,, 45 fanatic,, it's been around for over 100 years because it has proven to be effective,, but it is not perfect even the reaction of the slide recoil is slower than the 40 and 9mm in most guns,, but it is not a one shot stopper every time the impact spot is key,, the 10mm has its failing too, ammo is harder to find, more expensive, it's not supplied by departments. recoil can be bad for many people so follow up shots may be harder to get on target for many people,,,
but full power loads are very effective,,, and they can penetrate a lot,, even that can be bad.... good luck on your carrier and choices!
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Old 04-19-2018, 06:21 AM   #34
Stan R
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Lots of great info... I switched from 40 to 9.
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Old 04-19-2018, 06:33 AM   #35
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Not a LEO.... but I've been a 9mm guy for a long time... based first on affordability, then on comfort, some weird sense of loyalty i guess,... but no real ballistic reasoning... figured..IF i had to shoot at someone..they are getting all 8 or all 13.

so why, specifically, are some of you switching to 9mm if the ballistics are similiar/same to your current 40/45?
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Old 04-19-2018, 06:38 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by systemnt View Post
Not a LEO.... but I've been a 9mm guy for a long time... based first on affordability, then on comfort, some weird sense of loyalty i guess,... but no real ballistic reasoning... figured..IF i had to shoot at someone..they are getting all 8 or all 13.

so why, specifically, are some of you switching to 9mm if the ballistics are similiar/same to your current 40/45?
For a lot of LEOs it's not really personal choice due to the firearm selection being a department/agency decision...
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Old 04-19-2018, 07:14 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by systemnt View Post
Not a LEO.... but I've been a 9mm guy for a long time... based first on affordability, then on comfort, some weird sense of loyalty i guess,... but no real ballistic reasoning... figured..IF i had to shoot at someone..they are getting all 8 or all 13.

so why, specifically, are some of you switching to 9mm if the ballistics are similiar/same to your current 40/45?
If bullets are equal (and I believe that they are), the question is why wouldnít you switch to the 9mm? Quicker follow up shots because of decreased recoil and more capacity wins the day.

We have all seen anecdotal evidence that may make us lean one way or the other. I saw a man get shot with a double tap of 147 grain HST in 9mm and drop DRT. First shot hit him right dead center of his nipples and the second one was somewhere where his neck met his torso. That was enough for me to say the 9mm is legit and I never want to carry another round. Unfortunately, my department thinks .40 is still the way to go so thatís what Iím left to carry.

Did a ride out a year ago at Westminster, CO PD. They just had an OIS a few weeks prior and the officers on scene had used .45 and 9mm GDHPís. The two officers shooting .45 only penetrated one time through the car door after around a dozen shots to the vehicle. The officer on scene who had a 9mm hit the suspect multiple times, including the mortal wounds that ended the gun battle.The 9mm penetrated the car door and then deep enough into the perp to be fatal. When I was there, their shiny new 9mmís were sitting in dispatch waiting for them to qualify that afternoon and they turned in their .45ís.

Thereís a ton of factors that go into a shooting (angles, clothing, bullet selection, caliber, barriers, body type, how many shots fired, hit locations, etc). Itís really hard to get solid data from a handful of individual shootings, you really need to base it on a large agency that has multiple shootings to get a large sample size (NYPD/LAPD/Chicago, etc) to really see whatís the most effective.

I think it still comes down to shot placement, multiple hits on target and caliber/ammo selection, in that order. Three hits in the heart/lungs from a .45 APC of 230 grain GDHP is going to more effective than 3 hits in the stomach/pelvis area with the best .40 or 9mm round.
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Old 04-19-2018, 07:17 AM   #38
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Makes sense
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Old 04-19-2018, 07:17 AM   #39
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I see the "good hits" like center mass etc. Like someone stated..........if it's your time then that's it, it's your time.

Go with what round your comfortable with. Our women officers did not like or handle the recoil of the 45s. Thus they went to 40s.

Confidence in shooting and dead on your target with 5 rounds vs 2 because you shoot well will take out the perp with most any round.
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Old 04-19-2018, 07:19 AM   #40
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Carried a Block 22 .40

kronik by Diamond
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Old 04-19-2018, 07:30 AM   #41
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Funny thing... back in the day the debate was 38 special, 357 mag, 41 mag, 44 mag... almost no one carried an automatic and if they did it was a 1911 in 45acp or a Browning High Power in 9mm.. but the 357 Colt Python and S&W model 28 were king... For grins I qualified with my model 29 but wasn't allow to carry it..
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Old 04-19-2018, 11:28 AM   #42
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The only thing I've ever carried was 9mm. Our department issue was a Glock 17, and I carry a Glock 19 as my personal carry. In my opinion, modern ballistics have elevated the 9mm to being the best handgun round. It's fast, accurate, has an easily manageable recoil, and allows for a higher magazine capacity. Regardless, shot placement is much more important than caliber. Train and be comfortable with what you shoot, not what you shoot.
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Old 04-19-2018, 12:18 PM   #43
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I've carried 45 and 40 for years. Switched out my stuff for all 9mm. There are just too many factors to say one is better than the other. Lots of dead people from all the major calibers and lots of live people that have been shot by all the major calibers.
I donít think any of them are better.

They now punch the same hole by design.

I donít know it is a case of the 9mm being improved as much as the other calibers have been throttled back well below maximum possible penetration. Even when the FBI went to the 10mm after Miami (I believe the S&W 1006) they ended up scaling it back to subsonic velocities I think for control issues. They took a round that is capable of maybe 1,700 fps and scaled it back to about 950. It would be like loading a .357 magnum back to .38Spl velocities.

It really didnít matter what the 10mm ďcould doĒ. That led to cutting the 10mm case almost in half, keeping the projectile at the same subsonic velocity and calling it the .40S&W (probably because 10mm Short doesnít sound appealing but that is exactly what it is).

So that is where we are. I am fairly certain that most police agencies limit what caliber and what ammo can be carried. It doesnít matter if an officer thinks he can handle and wants to carry a 10mm full charged load, most agencies simply wonít allow it.

We now have major ammo manufacturers (I would bet that one supplies probably over 75% of duty ammo in HST or Gold Dot) that have designed police rounds to punch the same hole.

That leaves the only choices of capacity and recoil..... or ego.
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Old 04-19-2018, 12:18 PM   #44
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Thirty-one years with DPS I carried a model 27 s&w.357, Browning 9mm, Colt Phyton, Sig 220, Sig 229 9mm, Sig 226 .357 sig., Glock 31 .357 sig. and a couple of 1911ís .45ís. The one I liked the most was the sig 226 .357. In my opinion itís an excellent round.
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