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    #91
    There may have been an update on this I haven't seen, but when asked by a reporter if any of the victims were accidentally shot by LEO in the crossfire he said "we won't know until we get the coroners report" - I suppose he had to say that. You can certainly see how it could happen in the chaos of a gun battle but I hope for the sake of those officers it didn't.

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      #92
      Originally posted by jerp View Post
      There may have been an update on this I haven't seen, but when asked by a reporter if any of the victims were accidentally shot by LEO in the crossfire he said "we won't know until we get the coroners report" - I suppose he had to say that. You can certainly see how it could happen in the chaos of a gun battle but I hope for the sake of those officers it didn't.
      This is why I am not for arming teachers unless they take a contact shot or the target is temporarily isolated from other students. I am not for Vets either being in the schools. The military trains to kill EVERYONE not just one person barring Snipers. Basically, I don't want anyone taking a shot in a crowded school my kids attend that isn't periodically qualifying at a tactical range that involves friendly targets among unfriendly ones. My opinion.

      Comment


        #93
        Originally posted by J Sweet View Post
        This is why I am not for arming teachers unless they take a contact shot or the target is temporarily isolated from other students. I am not for Vets either being in the schools. The military trains to kill EVERYONE not just one person barring Snipers. Basically, I don't want anyone taking a shot in a crowded school my kids attend that isn't periodically qualifying at a tactical range that involves friendly targets among unfriendly ones. My opinion.
        This has been my take as well - I like the idea of armed patrol in and around the schools, but engaging during a fire alarm, and not expecting some sort of side effect of damage is not thinking clearly.

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          #94
          I would venture a guess that the veterans of past 30 years are well trained and very proficient in both identifying and isolating targets.

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            #95
            Originally posted by systemnt View Post
            I would venture a guess that the veterans of past 30 years are well trained and very proficient in both identifying and isolating targets.


            This

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              #96
              Originally posted by systemnt View Post
              I would venture a guess that the veterans of past 30 years are well trained and very proficient in both identifying and isolating targets.
              The fallacy with that lies in what a Veteran is. First off the vast majority of veterans come from a non combat MOS and have very little firearms experience (in comparison to a Combat MOS) other than a past (up to 30 years as you say) basic rifle marksmanship qualification that was done on a quarterly basis. Now you then must understand that Officers, Pilots, Spec Ops, MPs and Medics I may be missing a few) are the only ones that carry a side arm. Here is the Military M9 qualification standards. As you can clearly see military training with a side arm has little to no practical bearing on taking out an armed gunman amongst students in a populated building.



              Those that train regularly with weapon systems are mostly Combat MOS which are Armor, Artillery and Infantry and then the MOS's I outlined above.

              All three combat MOS's will destroy, suppress or neutralize the enemy by overwhelming means of fire power. If you want half the school slaughtered then call in the Infantry, if you want the walls torn down and all vehicles in the parking lots and half the students dead call in Armor. Or call in Arty and just kill everyone and leave a crater where the school once was. (Hyperbole)

              Im not saying there aren't veterans that could do what is needed in a school shooting but the vast majority have not been trained to do so. In fact the vast majority of the military never is issued a pistol or qualifies with one.

              Simply put; in no way whatsoever is being a veteran indicative of being an expert pistol marksman.

              FYI, I am a veteran and would never take a shot in a crowded school unless the target was isolated or I could get a contact shot and I had put in sufficient range time which a CHL is not.
              Last edited by Ætheling; 05-23-2018, 06:42 AM.

              Comment


                #97
                Originally posted by J Sweet View Post
                The fallacy with that lies in what a Veteran is. First off the vast majority of veterans come from a non combat MOS and have very little firearms experience (in comparison to a Combat MOS) other than a past (up to 30 years as you say) basic rifle marksmanship qualification that was done on a quarterly basis. Now you then must understand that Officers, Pilots, Spec Ops, MPs and Medics I may be missing a few) are the only ones that carry a side arm. Here is the Military M9 qualification standards. As you can clearly see military training with a side arm has little to no practical bearing on taking out an armed gunman amongst students in a populated building.



                Those that train regularly with weapon systems are mostly Combat MOS which are Armor, Artillery and Infantry and then the MOS's I outlined above.

                All three combat MOS's will destroy, suppress or neutralize the enemy by overwhelming means of fire power. If you want half the school slaughtered then call in the Infantry, if you want the walls torn down and all vehicles in the parking lots and half the students dead call in Armor. Or call in Arty and just kill everyone and leave a crater where the school once was. (Hyperbole)

                Im not saying there aren't veterans that could do what is needed in a school shooting but the vast majority have not been trained to do so. In fact the vast majority of the military never is issued a pistol or qualifies with one.

                Simply put; in no way whatsoever is being a veteran indicative of being an expert pistol marksman.

                FYI, I am a veteran and would never take a shot in a crowded school unless the target was isolated or I could get a contact shot and I had put in sufficient range time which a CHL is not.
                Pretty sure whomever gets the nod for school security will be required to have weapon training prior and annually.

                How often are LEO's required to have firearms training?

                Comment


                  #98
                  Originally posted by J Sweet View Post
                  The fallacy with that lies in what a Veteran is. First off the vast majority of veterans come from a non combat MOS and have very little firearms experience (in comparison to a Combat MOS) other than a past (up to 30 years as you say) basic rifle marksmanship qualification that was done on a quarterly basis. Now you then must understand that Officers, Pilots, Spec Ops, MPs and Medics I may be missing a few) are the only ones that carry a side arm. Here is the Military M9 qualification standards. As you can clearly see military training with a side arm has little to no practical bearing on taking out an armed gunman amongst students in a populated building.



                  Those that train regularly with weapon systems are mostly Combat MOS which are Armor, Artillery and Infantry and then the MOS's I outlined above.

                  All three combat MOS's will destroy, suppress or neutralize the enemy by overwhelming means of fire power. If you want half the school slaughtered then call in the Infantry, if you want the walls torn down and all vehicles in the parking lots and half the students dead call in Armor. Or call in Arty and just kill everyone and leave a crater where the school once was. (Hyperbole)

                  Im not saying there aren't veterans that could do what is needed in a school shooting but the vast majority have not been trained to do so. In fact the vast majority of the military never is issued a pistol or qualifies with one.

                  Simply put; in no way whatsoever is being a veteran indicative of being an expert pistol marksman.

                  FYI, I am a veteran and would never take a shot in a crowded school unless the target was isolated or I could get a contact shot and I had put in sufficient range time which a CHL is not.
                  My brother is a Border Patrol Agent, Ex Combat Recon Scout... has hundreds if not thousands of hours of Range time. When he retires from being an agent in a few years he is wanting to get into teaching. I would have no problem with him carrying on campus. I would trust him behind the trigger before most police officers. And even the BP does drill on how to handle school shootings. They just completed as training in Del Rio. And I would expect that any teacher who is allowed to carry would also have to have extensive training.

                  Comment


                    #99
                    Is this really an option?

                    How many schools do we have across the country? Will you want armed vets on school buses next? And then at bus stops? And then in daycares? Maybe just a personal bodyguard for every kid.

                    Liberals would have a field day if ANY kid was wounded or if anything at all happens that could be twisted in any way shape or form to look bad if a vet was armed in a school. I can see the headline now...Did he have PTSD?

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by RiverRat1 View Post
                      Is this really an option?

                      How many schools do we have across the country? Will you want armed vets on school buses next? And then at bus stops? And then in daycares? Maybe just a personal bodyguard for every kid.

                      Liberals would have a field day if ANY kid was wounded or if anything at all happens that could be twisted in any way shape or form to look bad if a vet was armed in a school. I can see the headline now...Did he have PTSD?
                      You have any ideas on how to stop school shootings?

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by BrandonA View Post
                        My brother is a Border Patrol Agent, Ex Combat Recon Scout... has hundreds if not thousands of hours of Range time. When he retires from being an agent in a few years he is wanting to get into teaching. I would have no problem with him carrying on campus. I would trust him behind the trigger before most police officers. And even the BP does drill on how to handle school shootings. They just completed as training in Del Rio. And I would expect that any teacher who is allowed to carry would also have to have extensive training.
                        In perfect agreement. I too am a FLETC grad or CBP Field Operations. Upon graduation with my HK P2000 .40 I could paint a face onto a target at 25 yds. Now with little range time in the last year not even close.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by J Sweet View Post
                          The fallacy with that lies in what a Veteran is. First off the vast majority of veterans come from a non combat MOS and have very little firearms experience (in comparison to a Combat MOS) other than a past (up to 30 years as you say) basic rifle marksmanship qualification that was done on a quarterly basis. Now you then must understand that Officers, Pilots, Spec Ops, MPs and Medics I may be missing a few) are the only ones that carry a side arm. Here is the Military M9 qualification standards. As you can clearly see military training with a side arm has little to no practical bearing on taking out an armed gunman amongst students in a populated building.



                          Those that train regularly with weapon systems are mostly Combat MOS which are Armor, Artillery and Infantry and then the MOS's I outlined above.

                          All three combat MOS's will destroy, suppress or neutralize the enemy by overwhelming means of fire power. If you want half the school slaughtered then call in the Infantry, if you want the walls torn down and all vehicles in the parking lots and half the students dead call in Armor. Or call in Arty and just kill everyone and leave a crater where the school once was. (Hyperbole)

                          Im not saying there aren't veterans that could do what is needed in a school shooting but the vast majority have not been trained to do so. In fact the vast majority of the military never is issued a pistol or qualifies with one.

                          Simply put; in no way whatsoever is being a veteran indicative of being an expert pistol marksman.

                          FYI, I am a veteran and would never take a shot in a crowded school unless the target was isolated or I could get a contact shot and I had put in sufficient range time which a CHL is not.


                          100 times better than the system in place now.

                          We're talking about teenage cowards, just the presence of a few armed personnel is all that is really necessary to stop 90% of these soft headed pricks.


                          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Dale Moser View Post
                            100 times better than the system in place now.

                            We're talking about teenage cowards, just the presence of a few armed personnel is all that is really necessary to stop 90% of these soft headed pricks.


                            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                            There is no system in place now apparently. Besides society being the moral equivalents of a piece of dog **** right now there is another point I have a theory about why these things are happening.

                            Highschools now are massive. Giant systems like prisons almost. Santa Fe High: Demographics[edit]

                            As of 2018 the school had about 1,500 students, with the majority being Hispanic and non-Hispanic white and with 24% being classified as low income.[7]

                            How easy is it for a wolf to hide among that many sheep? These school incidents seem to be happening at large schools. No way teachers in that size of a system can detect a student is mentally ill when they only see him for an hour once or twice a week as well as a thousand plus other students. The Woodlands HS states 4500 students? How is that possibly safe. The larger the school the greater the chance for something bad to happen not just by the law of averages but because of what I have outlined above.

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                              I have a daughter in Highschool and have taught her as best I can of what to do in these types of situations and now thinking about it a refresher is in the works for tonight.

                              I have a baby on the way right now. I have no desire to send them to a Public HS one day if they do not drastically reduce the number of students per school and put in metal detectors at bottle necks where armed and specially trained police are present.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by J Sweet View Post
                                The fallacy with that lies in what a Veteran is. First off the vast majority of veterans come from a non combat MOS and have very little firearms experience (in comparison to a Combat MOS) other than a past (up to 30 years as you say) basic rifle marksmanship qualification that was done on a quarterly basis. Now you then must understand that Officers, Pilots, Spec Ops, MPs and Medics I may be missing a few) are the only ones that carry a side arm. Here is the Military M9 qualification standards. As you can clearly see military training with a side arm has little to no practical bearing on taking out an armed gunman amongst students in a populated building.



                                Those that train regularly with weapon systems are mostly Combat MOS which are Armor, Artillery and Infantry and then the MOS's I outlined above.

                                All three combat MOS's will destroy, suppress or neutralize the enemy by overwhelming means of fire power. If you want half the school slaughtered then call in the Infantry, if you want the walls torn down and all vehicles in the parking lots and half the students dead call in Armor. Or call in Arty and just kill everyone and leave a crater where the school once was. (Hyperbole)

                                Im not saying there aren't veterans that could do what is needed in a school shooting but the vast majority have not been trained to do so. In fact the vast majority of the military never is issued a pistol or qualifies with one.

                                Simply put; in no way whatsoever is being a veteran indicative of being an expert pistol marksman.

                                FYI, I am a veteran and would never take a shot in a crowded school unless the target was isolated or I could get a contact shot and I had put in sufficient range time which a CHL is not.
                                ditto

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