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is it Genetics or is it food ?

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    #16
    Originally posted by unclefish View Post
    Exactly. Age is a given...the study was just comparing nutrition vs genetics.
    I'm confused about this study. How would nutrition on natural genetics ever result in bigger deer or faster results than buying enhanced genetics? (If the goal is the biggest deer.) The only realm that nutrition beats genetics, is the emotional aspect i.e. "I want to see how nice I can make my native deer population".

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      #17
      Originally posted by perfectstorm View Post
      I'm confused about this study. How would nutrition on natural genetics ever result in bigger deer or faster results than buying enhanced genetics? (If the goal is the biggest deer.) The only realm that nutrition beats genetics, is the emotional aspect i.e. "I want to see how nice I can make my native deer population".
      The study did not say that nutrition will improve it faster than genetics.

      The study is saying the difference in antler size from two regions was based on nutrition and not genetics because after two generations of good nutrition....the "poor region" caught up with the "good region".

      Link to the summary of the study.
      Last edited by unclefish; 08-03-2015, 10:20 AM.

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        #18
        Originally posted by unclefish View Post
        The study did not say that nutrition will improve it faster than genetics.

        The study is saying the difference in antler size from two regions was based on nutrition and not genetics because after two generations of good nutrition....the "poor region" caught up with the "good region".

        Link to the summary of the study.
        http://www.growingdeer.tv/?ep=whitet...act-or-fiction
        I'm sorry. I thought when you said "vs." that meant in relative comparison to the other. So this was just a study in if nutrition helps at all. No doubt it adds to the equation. Was the study LF or HF?

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          #19
          I don't have the practical experience but from what I have been able to put together reading and watching everything I think...

          If you have to let the deer get old to see what it can be.
          If you want him bigger, then you need to make sure it has great food 365 days a year.
          If you still want him bigger, then you need better genes.

          I think you need to get the first 2 steps down first, but at least the steps done in this direction are the cheapest to most expensive.

          BTW I would love to have the land to do the experiment. What ever you decide, it's fun doing it.
          Last edited by jkelbe; 08-03-2015, 10:26 AM.

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            #20
            Originally posted by perfectstorm View Post
            I'm sorry. I thought when you said "vs." that meant in relative comparison to the other. So this was just a study in if nutrition helps at all. No doubt it adds to the equation. Was the study LF or HF?
            They tagged and transported deer to high fence and then tagged the fawns, so they could track the parentage.

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              #21
              Age--without age genetics don't show
              nutrition--without nutrition genetics don't show
              Genetics-- Can be dramatically improved with nutrition especially over time.

              I surely believe infusing store bought genetics can very quickly improve a herd assuming: you have complete control { read relatively small, high fence, intensively fed }

              Is importing genetics cheaper and/or more effective than a long term nutrition program. Maybe again in a smallish highly controlled environment.

              To think about the role of genetics lets play: We have 2500 acres high fenced. Assume abstractly we have a deer to 10 acres. Assume 1:1 ratio That yields 125 bucks. We want ALL the bucks to achieve the highest quality possible. We feed from January to mid August and last year fed about 60 tons maybe a bit more. At $500/ton $30K. Ag budget is usually $6-$8K yr. Rounding up thats $40-$50K. Divide by 2 cause my neighbor foots the bill on his property.

              What the outcome over time from such a program? Many of you know the deer we are growing but suffice to say our deer are substantially bigger than anything around the area including other high fenced properties . They are also significantly bigger than when we started and seem to keep getting bigger.

              Now think about importing genetics. How many breeder bucks would need to be purchased at what cost to impact the 125 bucks already in place. Using DMP pens how many deer need to be released over how many years to make an impact again at what cost.

              Even then for these deer to express their full genetic potential they need to be on a very high nutritional plane. I can't get the costs to work and I have always chosen to spend the $ on nutrition instead.

              I frankly think most folks would be better off taking the word 'genetics' out of their vocabulary. Focus on the things you can control..age and nutrition.With that I believe bucks can be grown that meet or exceed the most wonderful dreams of most hunters.

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                #22
                In my opinion nutrition is the mot important factor. With out nutrition doesn't matter how old or what type of genetics a deer has they will never fully maximize

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                  #23
                  Without nutrition, genetics can NEVER show its full potential. Nutrition has to be #1.

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by elgato View Post
                    Age--without age genetics don't show
                    nutrition--without nutrition genetics don't show
                    Genetics-- Can be dramatically improved with nutrition especially over time.

                    I surely believe infusing store bought genetics can very quickly improve a herd assuming: you have complete control { read relatively small, high fence, intensively fed }

                    Is importing genetics cheaper and/or more effective than a long term nutrition program. Maybe again in a smallish highly controlled environment.

                    To think about the role of genetics lets play: We have 2500 acres high fenced. Assume abstractly we have a deer to 10 acres. Assume 1:1 ratio That yields 125 bucks. We want ALL the bucks to achieve the highest quality possible. We feed from January to mid August and last year fed about 60 tons maybe a bit more. At $500/ton $30K. Ag budget is usually $6-$8K yr. Rounding up thats $40-$50K. Divide by 2 cause my neighbor foots the bill on his property.

                    What the outcome over time from such a program? Many of you know the deer we are growing but suffice to say our deer are substantially bigger than anything around the area including other high fenced properties . They are also significantly bigger than when we started and seem to keep getting bigger.

                    Now think about importing genetics. How many breeder bucks would need to be purchased at what cost to impact the 125 bucks already in place. Using DMP pens how many deer need to be released over how many years to make an impact again at what cost.

                    Even then for these deer to express their full genetic potential they need to be on a very high nutritional plane. I can't get the costs to work and I have always chosen to spend the $ on nutrition instead.

                    I frankly think most folks would be better off taking the word 'genetics' out of their vocabulary. Focus on the things you can control..age and nutrition.With that I believe bucks can be grown that meet or exceed the most wonderful dreams of most hunters.
                    Could you achieve what you have done on your place on a Florida ranch with same results or would genetics become a factor?

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by perfectstorm View Post
                      I'm confused about this study. How would nutrition on natural genetics ever result in bigger deer or faster results than buying enhanced genetics? (If the goal is the biggest deer.) The only realm that nutrition beats genetics, is the emotional aspect i.e. "I want to see how nice I can make my native deer population".
                      Watch the Growingdeertv article OP is talking about. Grant Woods is probably the premier biologist in the nation. Nutrition is the #1.

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                        #26
                        Originally posted by KingsX View Post
                        Could you achieve what you have done on your place on a Florida ranch with same results or would genetics become a factor?
                        You can polish a VW bug all you want. It is never going to be a Ferrari.

                        It will however be a VERY Shiny VW bug.

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by Encinal View Post
                          You can polish a VW bug all you want. It is never going to be a Ferrari.

                          It will however be a VERY Shiny VW bug.
                          Exactly. Some seem to think with the right wax that they can or have done it.

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                            #28
                            What I have done on my place is start with what was on the farm then shift the bell curve using nutrition. I imagine that principle would work anywhere. The difference is that in Fla the starting point would be different than here primarily resulting from low soil fertility compromising nutrition for many historical generations.

                            Significantly enhancing the nutritional plane would quickly shine up the Vw's though.

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by Encinal View Post
                              You can polish a VW bug all you want. It is never going to be a Ferrari.

                              It will however be a VERY Shiny VW bug.
                              Couldn't have said it better.

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                                #30
                                Originally posted by elgato View Post
                                What I have done on my place is start with what was on the farm then shift the bell curve using nutrition. I imagine that principle would work anywhere. The difference is that in Fla the starting point would be different than here primarily resulting from low soil fertility compromising nutrition for many historical generations.

                                Significantly enhancing the nutritional plane would quickly shine up the Vw's though.
                                I agree.

                                Do you think or have you ever experienced a place that has fed a large amount of suplemental feed without food plots in place experience a downturn in certain quality like antler mass for example? Would a deer heard become too dependent on a suplemental feed over natural browse and suffer because of it? Not sure if this has happened before but I believe I've been apart of a few ranches that it may have happened to in comparison to places that do not suplemental feed at all. I'm sure it boils down to correct density to a degree but I've always been curious to the effects it may have if deer choose to eat mostly suplemental type feed over natural browse considering you have good value browse to begin with.

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