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Old 03-20-2018, 07:44 PM   #1
Brandon M.
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Default Perplexed - Tuning thoughts?

I've been shooting 31" Traditional Only 400s fletched with (3) 5" shield feathers, 64gr insert and 175gr points.
I've been shooting these from a 51# r/d Longbow and they shoot good and bare shafts group with fletched.
Now I shot these same arrows from my 60# Recurve and they seem to tune perfectly. Both bows are cut to center with similar strike plate material. Both bows where shot at 20 yards.
I'm perplexed as to how/why these arrows work for both bows. I do seem to shoot the recurve better.

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Last edited by Brandon M.; 03-20-2018 at 07:54 PM.
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Old 03-20-2018, 07:55 PM   #2
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I would bet that you could up the point weight on the lb by at least 75 and they would tighten up like the recurve. They appear to be perfectly spined for the recurve


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Old 03-20-2018, 08:02 PM   #3
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There are inherent differences in every bow and you just have to find the arrow combination that works. Seems you got lucky and arrows work for both rigs. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

With that said, I would be curious to see what the speed difference is between the two bows.

Also, what bowyer built each bow?
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Old 03-20-2018, 08:10 PM   #4
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With that said, I would be curious to see what the speed difference is between the two bows.

Also, what bowyer built each bow?
I was curious about the speed also but do not have a chrono, I did shoot both into a brand new block and the recurve penetrated 3/4 to 1 inch deeper.

Both bows where built by Roland Jenkins out of Huntsville. The recurve was recently given to me by my uncle and was one of Rolands early bows. The longbow is one of his newer ones which he uses a couple carbon lams in the limbs.
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Old 03-20-2018, 08:26 PM   #5
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I would bet that you could up the point weight on the lb by at least 75 and they would tighten up like the recurve. They appear to be perfectly spined for the recurve


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Iím in agreement with this^^^^^, although not sure exactly how much weight it would take? My first thought when I read your specs was that you might be a little too stiff for the longbow.

And sometimes, things work that just donít make sense!!!!

That is some good shooting, btw!

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Old 03-21-2018, 07:18 AM   #6
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Great Shooting! If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.......
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Old 03-21-2018, 07:23 AM   #7
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That a good group at 20.

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Old 03-21-2018, 08:49 AM   #8
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I'd be happy with both groups. I cant group that tight with a dang .22
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Old 03-21-2018, 08:52 AM   #9
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Thanks guys, I wish they all looked like that.

They seem to be close enough that I can make them work for both bows. I'll try adding a little point weight when shooting the longbow and see what happens, I just don't want to get to heavy since I'm already right at 11gpp.
Out of the recurve these arrows are about 9.25gpp, and flight is great so I don't think I'll change anything for now.
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:30 PM   #10
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This is my 20yd group, so I wouldnít lose sleep over yours! Incidentally, regarding your weight, Iím shooting a 15gpi total weight arrow with 40% FOC, so youíve got a little room on arrow weight, IMO.

I know my longbow shoots heavier arrows WAY better than lighter ones.

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Old 03-21-2018, 03:45 PM   #11
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Maddog, if you are shooting that well routinely, you got nothing to worry about!!!!

And are your arrows 15 grains per inch or 15 grains per pound of draw weight? GPP is what we mostly speak in terms of, and there is a great difference in the two!

I would like to see your arrow specs, as I have never seen a 40% FOC arrow!

Bisch


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Old 03-21-2018, 06:53 PM   #12
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Maddog, if you are shooting that well routinely, you got nothing to worry about!!!!

And are your arrows 15 grains per inch or 15 grains per pound of draw weight? GPP is what we mostly speak in terms of, and there is a great difference in the two!

I would like to see your arrow specs, as I have never seen a 40% FOC arrow!

Bisch


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Iím at 9.2gpp. I thought he said gpi, my mistake.

Iím shooting the Black Eagle Instinct at 31Ē. They get a little help with that FOC because it has a 100gr outsert before you even put a tip on it.

Maybe Iím calculating it wrong, but itís a 485gr arrow with 200 just in the tip. Did I do the math wrong?
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Old 03-21-2018, 08:36 PM   #13
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I think you are not calculating correctly??? If I had to bet, I would bet you are in the 22-24% range somewhere.

Here is a calculator to figure it:

http://archerycalculator.com/arrow-f...oc-calculator/

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Old 03-21-2018, 08:47 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bisch View Post
I think you are not calculating correctly??? If I had to bet, I would bet you are in the 22-24% range somewhere.

Here is a calculator to figure it:

http://archerycalculator.com/arrow-f...oc-calculator/

Bisch
I had to go to a 600gr broadhead just to get to 32% FOC.
40% is a lot. A "Whole Lot".

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Old 03-21-2018, 08:58 PM   #15
Maddog20/20
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Well, there you go. I learned something today. I thought FOC was the percentage of weight in the front half of the arrow. Allow me to adjust that to 21.8%...so I was only off by double.

Thanks for the correction. Iím still new to the particulars and physics, so bear with me

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Old 03-21-2018, 09:00 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Maddog20/20 View Post
Well, there you go. I learned something today. I thought FOC was the percentage of weight in the front half of the arrow.

Thanks for the correction. Iím still new to the particulars and physics, so bear with me
No problem! You certainly are not the first to figure it that way. I know from experience many moons ago!!!

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Old 03-21-2018, 09:14 PM   #17
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I let the 3rivers spine calculator do it for me. I sucked at physics.

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Old 03-21-2018, 09:29 PM   #18
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I let the 3rivers spine calculator do it for me. I sucked at physics.

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Yep.. No math in public for me, I just embarrass myself.
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Old 03-21-2018, 09:50 PM   #19
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I let the 3rivers spine calculator do it for me. I sucked at physics.

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I used to do the same but for me personally it seems to be way off.
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Old 03-22-2018, 06:33 AM   #20
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It didn't work for me with the Big Jim. Recurve bows it has thus far. Regardless though if you put your arrow specs in it will calculate the numbers relative to what you use.


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Old 03-22-2018, 07:33 AM   #21
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It didn't work for me with the Big Jim. Recurve bows it has thus far. Regardless though if you put your arrow specs in it will calculate the numbers relative to what you use.


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Not necessarily true. I donít use 3Rivers calculator, but I do use the Stu Miller calculator. The one I use has a Personal Form Factor (PFF). The PFF is designed so that you can take an arrow that is known to you thru other forms of tuning to be well tuned for you, put that arrow info into the calculator, and then ďadjustĒ the calculator to make that arrow right for your set up. Without the PFF, the calculator would be worthless to me, as it always was way off till I got the PFF set for me!

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Old 03-22-2018, 07:46 AM   #22
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Not necessarily true. I donít use 3Rivers calculator, but I do use the Stu Miller calculator. The one I use has a Personal Form Factor (PFF). The PFF is designed so that you can take an arrow that is known to you thru other forms of tuning to be well tuned for you, put that arrow info into the calculator, and then ďadjustĒ the calculator to make that arrow right for your set up. Without the PFF, the calculator would be worthless to me, as it always was way off till I got the PFF set for me!

Bisch


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^^^^THIS^^^^

The very nature of any arrow calculator forces it to have to work from anchored centers to be accurate

Since we all hold the bow differently, and have other little differences from one shooter to another, that anchored center can be different from one shooter to another.

The Personal Form Factor (PFF) adjustment handles that very well.

Rick
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Old 03-22-2018, 08:13 AM   #23
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Not necessarily true. I donít use 3Rivers calculator, but I do use the Stu Miller calculator. The one I use has a Personal Form Factor (PFF). The PFF is designed so that you can take an arrow that is known to you thru other forms of tuning to be well tuned for you, put that arrow info into the calculator, and then ďadjustĒ the calculator to make that arrow right for your set up. Without the PFF, the calculator would be worthless to me, as it always was way off till I got the PFF set for me!

Bisch


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Once you get your PFF set is that specific to that bow or to the shooter. For example if I took the data from the above recurve and arrow setup which I feel are very closely matched and got a PFF could I then use that to work on one of my longbow setups?
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Old 03-22-2018, 08:35 AM   #24
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3 rivers has a place to put a personal form factor.
I wasn't saying choose an arrow based on it though.

I was just saying put in the numbers from the arrow you have and it will tell you what your gpp, and foc are.

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Old 03-22-2018, 09:03 AM   #25
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Ricks chart and 3rivers give me the same numbers. I have no clue how to use the personal adjustment factor deals. Recently I've gained some weight so I may be a plus size.

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Old 03-22-2018, 12:49 PM   #26
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Once you get your PFF set is that specific to that bow or to the shooter. For example if I took the data from the above recurve and arrow setup which I feel are very closely matched and got a PFF could I then use that to work on one of my longbow setups?


For me, it does work like that. Now that I have the PFF set, I can put just about any bow and arrow combo I want into the calculator, and it gives me something I can work with. Not necessarily exact, but close enough that all I have to do is fine tune from that point.

Also, any calculator is only as good as this information that is put into it. You need precisely correct input to get real close results! If anything is even just a little off, it will skew your results.

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Old 03-22-2018, 01:01 PM   #27
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Ricks chart and 3rivers give me the same numbers. I have no clue how to use the personal adjustment factor deals. Recently I've gained some weight so I may be a plus size.

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Gary, the PFF is there to taylor the calculator to you! You have to be able to tune in other ways before you can use it. For example: if you have a bow and arrow set up that you know is well tuned because you did the tuning by bareshaft or paper tuning (the way we all did it before calculators), you can then input your bow and arrow info into the calculator. Chances are that they will not match up close enough for you to be tuned. (The calculator says the bow and arrow should be within 2# of each other.)

At this point you are ready to trash the calculator as unreliable because you know that your setup is tuned, but the calculator says it is not. When the calculators first came out, there was no PFF, and they just would not work for me.

So, once you are at this point, with a setup you know is tuned, but the calculator is saying is not there yet, you go to the PFF. Idk how 3Rivers works, but on Stu Millerís calculator, you can input numbers from -15 to 15. You play with it till it makes the bow and arrow match, and that is your PFF.

Leave your PFF set to that number, and from them on (at least for me) when you enter new bow/arrow combos, the results will be real close to true.

Bisch


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Old 03-22-2018, 01:14 PM   #28
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I kinda figured that but I've just gotten to the point my form is consistent enough to bare shaft. However with the recurves I've had matches as long as I put in the correct data. Seems string data, strike plate thickness and even bow brand can cause variations.
Example they don't list a Tall Tines so I used a BW PCH to check a couple. The 400 spine black eagles 30.25" with 175 up front worked well.
But if I had those arrows set up i could use the calculator, input the bow data or not, put in my arrow data and it will tell me all the fancy numbers for my arrows like FOC. If I've put in my bow info the gpp will be listed as well.
Now that may or may not give a person an arrow that is actually spines well for how they shoot but it will give them the calculations for their arrow.


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Old 03-22-2018, 01:18 PM   #29
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Also I've got to get a longbow that will work for me. I could shoot the Big Jim but could not quiet it enough to suite me. I will get one cut 1/8th past center and hope I can easily get it tuned and quiet.
There is a long learning curve to this stuff and although it can be humbling when you get it right and it does work it's elating.

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Old 03-22-2018, 01:37 PM   #30
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If your bow is not in the list by brand, there should be a selection for ďGeneric RecurveĒ or Generic R/D LongbowĒ, or something close to that. That is what I use because Sarrels bows are not on the list either.

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Old 03-22-2018, 02:10 PM   #31
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This bow tunin is as complicated as chinese arithmetic
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Old 03-22-2018, 03:09 PM   #32
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Also I've got to get a longbow that will work for me. I could shoot the Big Jim but could not quiet it enough to suite me. I will get one cut 1/8th past center and hope I can easily get it tuned and quiet.
There is a long learning curve to this stuff and although it can be humbling when you get it right and it does work it's elating.

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That center cut also affects which arrow works best. On a center cut, the regular diameter like at GT Trad isnít as true as a small diameter shaft whereas with a past center cut riser, the full diameter may be a truer ďaimĒ (as much as instinctive shooters aim, that is).

Iím with you on saying itís complicated, but thatís why I never order cut shafts. I like to bareshaft tune from weak to true. Itís just neat and very satisfying to see theoretical things like dynamic spine work in real life.

When I see my arrows fly true, I know it was me that figured it out and made it happen. Itís one of the truly unique things with trad shooting.

It took a while before my form and release was good enough to do it, though.
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Old 03-22-2018, 06:02 PM   #33
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New question, what do you do if there is not enough adjustment on the PFF to match them up. I'm almost 10 off still at a -15.

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Old 03-22-2018, 06:30 PM   #34
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New question, what do you do if there is not enough adjustment on the PFF to match them up. I'm almost 10 off still at a -15.

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Something is a miss.
Don't know what, but definitely something.

One thing I can tell you for sure - if the numbers you are entering are off, the results from the calculator will be wrong, and most of the time it's in the center cut measurement where the mistake is made.

Sometimes it's us entering the wrong number from guessing at it, and sometimes the bow isn't cut to the measurement it is marked or advertised as.

Make sure of your numbers, and that usually means you have to take the measurements yourself.

Other than that, I got nothing.

Rick
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Old 03-22-2018, 06:49 PM   #35
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Kick plate thickness and string strand?

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Old 03-22-2018, 08:35 PM   #36
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Something is a miss.
Don't know what, but definitely something.

One thing I can tell you for sure - if the numbers you are entering are off, the results from the calculator will be wrong, and most of the time it's in the center cut measurement where the mistake is made.

Sometimes it's us entering the wrong number from guessing at it, and sometimes the bow isn't cut to the measurement it is marked or advertised as.

Make sure of your numbers, and that usually means you have to take the measurements yourself.

Other than that, I got nothing.

Rick
Is there a method for measuring center shot, I did a search on Google but coming up empty. Other than verifying the center shot measurement I'm pretty certain the specs I entered are accurate. Maybe I shouldn't worry about it but it's bugging me now.
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Old 03-22-2018, 08:40 PM   #37
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Is there a method for measuring center shot, I did a search on Google but coming up empty. Other than verifying the center shot measurement I'm pretty certain the specs I entered are accurate. Maybe I shouldn't worry about it but it's bugging me now.
Here ya go:

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Old 03-22-2018, 08:42 PM   #38
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If you do to the following link, then go to the instructions page, you will find a much better picture of the above, and a whole lot more information you might find useful.

http://www.taylortel.net/~rickbarb/d...alculator.html

Rick
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Old 03-22-2018, 09:10 PM   #39
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Thank you sir
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Old 03-22-2018, 09:31 PM   #40
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Thank you sir
You're quite welcome.

Give me a shout if you need any help.

Rick
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