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Arrow help.... I think I over did it...

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    #31
    Go HEAVY or go home!

    I went from 410 to 595 and it quietened my bow, made it more forgiving and more accurate, especially on longer shots. I would stay with the heavier set up. My pin gap is not as much as I thought it would be also.

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      #32
      heavy and quiet will always outweigh fast light and loud. Think this way, no bow is breaking the sound barrier so the critter will hear your shot before the arrow gets there even shooting 340 fps. quiet down the bow and make it harder to hear. maybe I'm flawed but that's my thinking

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        #33
        Ok. I have never shot a no cam. But a arrow at 430 gr at 280 fps is 74.9 ke and .534 slug-ft/s. Then you showing a 476 gr at 250 fps. Has a ke of 66.1 ke .528 slug-ft/s. That either means your calculating and your way off. Or you shot it and something is horribly wrong. You will not loose in ke or slug-ft/s as weight goes up.

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          #34
          Originally posted by DapperDan View Post
          Ok, so, I’m over thinking. You ever over thought something. Of course you have. It’s what we do! Anyways, I have crunched numbers based off two different arrows I have shot and chrono’d. One is 433 grain and 264 fps and the other is 476 grain and 252 fps. Both are Easton axis. Based on all the math and crunching I was able to configure approximate arrow speeds for set ups of different arrows.

          Looked at victory vaps, victory rips, Easton flatlines, and Easton axis (currently shooting). Based on what I have found is I can go to the Easton axis with a 27” shaft, 340 spine, add 50 grain insert, 100 grain BH, and after fletching and knock come in at around 430 grains and have a foc close to 12%. Momentum of .5 and KE of 67.

          The 433 grain arrow I was shooting was 29” and didn’t have weighted insert. I was happy with around 270 fps in that arrow.

          I have my arrows at 476 grain, 250 fps, and 67 KE. Why not pick up almost 18 fps if I am not really losing anything else? What’s the downside?


          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
          KE is a marketing tool used by the archery industry. Arrow penetration capability relies on momentum. To dumb it down a little, Momentum is what keeps arrow moving after the point of impact. When it comes to momentum, there is no point of finishing returns in the realistic range of hunting arrows. Heavy is always good. Now, there are several other things to consider. FOC, Target animal, broadheads type and sharpness and bow tuned to perfect arrow flight. For Deer, there is nothing wrong with a 430 gr. arrow as long as all other factors are also being considered. Look at the Easton Hexx 330. You can put 75 gr brass insert up front, 100 gr head and weigh in around 430 gr. with good FOC. And when the time comes, shot placement is critical.

          One other thing, a properly spines arrow with increased FOC, usually flies better than its lower FOC comparison.

          Consider this....my wife gets pass throughs on elk with a 350 gr arrow, 25" draw and 47 lbs. It takes a good combination of all mentioned factors to get that performance for her.

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            #35
            Originally posted by samson33 View Post
            KE is a marketing tool used by the archery industry. Arrow penetration capability relies on momentum. To dumb it down a little, Momentum is what keeps arrow moving after the point of impact. When it comes to momentum, there is no point of finishing returns in the realistic range of hunting arrows. Heavy is always good. Now, there are several other things to consider. FOC, Target animal, broadheads type and sharpness and bow tuned to perfect arrow flight. For Deer, there is nothing wrong with a 430 gr. arrow as long as all other factors are also being considered. Look at the Easton Hexx 330. You can put 75 gr brass insert up front, 100 gr head and weigh in around 430 gr. with good FOC. And when the time comes, shot placement is critical.

            One other thing, a properly spines arrow with increased FOC, usually flies better than its lower FOC comparison.

            Consider this....my wife gets pass throughs on elk with a 350 gr arrow, 25" draw and 47 lbs. It takes a good combination of all mentioned factors to get that performance for her.
            Yes a good combinations. This is why the 12 penetration factored by dr ashby are a good to look at when designing arrows. And weight is number 12. So always a way to build a great arrow with out being overly heavy

            TWELVE PENETRATION FACTORS

            1. Structural Integrity 
The most important factor of arrow penetration is structural integrity. If any component of your arrow fails, then penetration either completely stops or is greatly reduced. 
*
            2. Arrow Flight 
If an arrow is not flying perfectly, then it’s wasting valuable energy that could have contributed to penetration. If an arrow impacts before it has achieved perfect flight, then energy is wasted that could have contributed to forward momentum and penetration. Perfect flight is crucial; you must achieve it no matter what the cost. Pay close attention to the other factors too though or you may find yourself shooting arrows that fly perfectly but can’t penetrate well at all. 
*
            3. Arrow FOC (Front of Center) 
Tests have shown that EFOC, defined as 19% - 30% front of center and Ultra EFOC, defined as over 30% front of center enhances penetration from 40% to 60+%. 
*
            4. Broadhead Mechanical Advantage 
Long narrow broadheads have an advantage over shorter wider heads. It takes less energy to push them through an animal. That is their mechanical advantage. This is second only to EFOC and Ultra EFOC as a penetration-enhancing factor. 

5. Shaft Diameter to Ferrule Diameter Ratio 
You’ll lose up to 30% of your penetration potential if the shaft diameter is larger than the ferrule diameter where they meet. It’s best to be slightly smaller in diameter than the ferrule of the broadhead. 

            6. Arrow Mass or Weight 
Heavier arrows absorb more energy from the bow at the shot and heavier arrows carry their momentum better than lighter arrows, so heavier arrows penetrate better. Bow hunters should use the heaviest arrow that will deliver a trajectory they can live with. 

            7. Broadhead Edge Finish 
Broadhead edges that have been honed and stropped smooth have a 26% advantage over smooth filed edges and a 60% advantage over the coarse “serrated” Howard Hill edge.
            
8. Shaft Profile 
On all shots, tapered arrow shafts show an 8% penetration gain over parallel wall arrow shafts and a 15% gain over barrel tapered shafts. 

            9. Broadhead/Arrow Silhouette 
Smooth transitions and slick arrow finishes greatly enhance the penetration potential of your broadhead/arrow combination. Broadhead ferrules with bumps or any irregular surfaces impede penetration, especially in bone. 

            10. Type of Edge Bevel 
Only if no bone is encountered, then the type of edge bevel ranks 10th. If bone is hit, and more often than not it is, this factor jumps up toward the top of the list. If you can’t get through the bone, penetration stops. The powerful rotational force of single bevel broadheads splits bone. Single bevel broadheads regularly turn what would be a wound into a killing shot. Note: Your arrow must be of sufficient weight and strength to drive the broadhead through and withstand the forces involved in breaching the bone. 

            11. Tip Design 
In all testing where bone was encountered, the Tanto tip performed best. It resisted damage and skipped less than any other tip design.

            12. Arrow Mass 650 grains and Above 
When soft tissue is hit, this factor is ranked last in importance, BUT if heavy bone is hit arrow mass will be near the top of the list. Heavy bone is almost impossible to breach unless you have 650 grains or better in mass arrow weight.
            Dr. Ed Ashby

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              #36
              While I agree weight is important. I'll take speed and less arrow drop first with adequate weight.

              My setup is 29.5" / 74lbs - 390 gr arrow @ 315 fps. I shoot the same setup for Whitetail, Axis, Mule deer and Elk. I have shot several Elk past 50 yards and never had a problem with penetration. Most don't passthrough as I try to hit the opposite shoulder.

              Point being you were fine where you were - 280 fps & 430Gr arrow will kill anything in North America with proper shot placement.

              If you hit solid bone on a Elk, Axis, Mule deer or even a big whitetail - it is not going to matter.

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by Archery1st View Post
                While I agree weight is important. I'll take speed and less arrow drop first with adequate weight.

                My setup is 29.5" / 74lbs - 390 gr arrow @ 315 fps. I shoot the same setup for Whitetail, Axis, Mule deer and Elk. I have shot several Elk past 50 yards and never had a problem with penetration. Most don't passthrough as I try to hit the opposite shoulder.

                Point being you were fine where you were - 280 fps & 430Gr arrow will kill anything in North America with proper shot placement.

                If you hit solid bone on a Elk, Axis, Mule deer or even a big whitetail - it is not going to matter.
                I can agree with you, but I would add one more thing. Not all 390 gr arrows are equal. If 390 is your number, try and build the arrow with more FOC, if possible.? It will perform better. Better flight, less effect from wind and will penetrate better.

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by enewman View Post
                  Ok. I have never shot a no cam. But a arrow at 430 gr at 280 fps is 74.9 ke and .534 slug-ft/s. Then you showing a 476 gr at 250 fps. Has a ke of 66.1 ke .528 slug-ft/s. That either means your calculating and your way off. Or you shot it and something is horribly wrong. You will not loose in ke or slug-ft/s as weight goes up.


                  Typo should say 430 and 270 fps. Just saw that.


                  Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                    #39
                    I went to a heavier muddyfuzzy arrow this year as well. I was in a 28" FMJ 400 and now black eagle carnivore at 486grns. The black eagles are about 4 inches lower than the fmj at 30 yards. BUT they just about lift the block off the ground when shooting the top spots. And its quieter

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                      #40
                      Originally posted by Quackerbox View Post
                      I went to a heavier muddyfuzzy arrow this year as well. I was in a 28" FMJ 400 and now black eagle carnivore at 486grns. The black eagles are about 4 inches lower than the fmj at 30 yards. BUT they just about lift the block off the ground when shooting the top spots. And its quieter


                      If I shot a bow with a higher ibo I’d be all about this. A halon 32 at 70 lbs and 27” shot my 476 grain arrow 270 fps. My htx was 250-252. How do you like the black eagles?


                      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                        #41
                        Originally posted by DapperDan View Post
                        If I shot a bow with a higher ibo I’d be all about this. A halon 32 at 70 lbs and 27” shot my 476 grain arrow 270 fps. My htx was 250-252. How do you like the black eagles?


                        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                        Short answer, Im not sure yet, for me anyway. Just started hunting with them this year.

                        Im shooting them from a heli-m at 28" and 65#. I cant tell you how fast or slow it is cause Ive never really chrono'd it. With either arrow. The video system Bowzone has showed in the 250-254 fps range with the FMJs

                        Inside 20 yards I can stack both arrows (busted at black eagle yesterday). They hit the target like a train and group better outside 40. I havent shot an animal with them yet so thats still in the air. I did shoot under a pig at about 30 that seemed to hear the arrow or the bow one.

                        As mentioned, the furthest Ive shot an animal in my bow career is about 32 yards and that was a pig last week with the FMJ. Most of my deer have been inside 25 and passing through deer or breaking offside shoulder hadnt been an issue with the FMJ.

                        I asked muddy for an arrow that grouped better at longer distance and to hit harder and thats what he built me. No doubt about that. I cant remember the insert weight but they ended up 18% FOC with 100 grain heads

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                          #42
                          Originally posted by Archery1st View Post
                          While I agree weight is important. I'll take speed and less arrow drop first with adequate weight.

                          My setup is 29.5" / 74lbs - 390 gr arrow @ 315 fps. I shoot the same setup for Whitetail, Axis, Mule deer and Elk. I have shot several Elk past 50 yards and never had a problem with penetration. Most don't passthrough as I try to hit the opposite shoulder.

                          Point being you were fine where you were - 280 fps & 430Gr arrow will kill anything in North America with proper shot placement.

                          If you hit solid bone on a Elk, Axis, Mule deer or even a big whitetail - it is not going to matter.
                          Your set up may work for you. But even if he was shooting the same bow as you he's 2.5 inches shorter. That's 25 ft difference. So your 390 at 315 would put him with a 390 at 290. In slug-ft/s he has 8.5% less force. I know that dosent would like much but it is. He has the same problem I have short arms. So we have to make it up with heavier arrows and different types of broadheads.

                          I'm not sure what you mention solid bone won't matter. A good head with a good arrow bone breaks.

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                            #43
                            If you're really thinking of switching for the sake of speed, I would still recommend keeping it at or below 285. Beyond that it gets harder to properly tune browdheads. Sounds like you got that with your 430 grain setup. I'd just go back to that or find a similar 430 grain setup with more FOC

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                              #44
                              Arrow help.... I think I over did it...

                              Originally posted by popup_menace View Post
                              If you're really thinking of switching for the sake of speed, I would still recommend keeping it at or below 285. Beyond that it gets harder to properly tune browdheads. Sounds like you got that with your 430 grain setup. I'd just go back to that or find a similar 430 grain setup with more FOC


                              I’d be open to a 430 grain set up with higher foc if I can find arrows as durable and reliable as the axis. These things have been awesome for me. I’ve broken a couple but they either got stuck in wood or a friend broke a couple hitting hard plastic inserts in a deer target. They were glancing blows on the deer target. The wood one broke trying to get it out


                              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                                #45
                                Originally posted by enewman View Post
                                Your set up may work for you. But even if he was shooting the same bow as you he's 2.5 inches shorter. That's 25 ft difference. So your 390 at 315 would put him with a 390 at 290. In slug-ft/s he has 8.5% less force. I know that dosent would like much but it is. He has the same problem I have short arms. So we have to make it up with heavier arrows and different types of broadheads.

                                I'm not sure what you mention solid bone won't matter. A good head with a good arrow bone breaks.
                                Solid bone = Big Whitetail, Axis, Mule Deer or Elk if you hit the leg bone dead on odds are highly likely it will not break.

                                I've seen others on more than one occasion whitetail hit in the elbow the arrow does not penetrate.

                                Years ago I personally hit a cow elk in the shoulder with a 485 gr arrow at 25 yards and the broadhead was the only thing with blood on it. The cow elk lived.

                                I've also seen a girl shooting 40 lbs with a 25" draw and a 280 grain arrow blow clean through the scapula and ribs on a big whitetail.

                                Again nothing wrong with weight, but it's more about shot placement. The original setup was more than adequate on any North American game.

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