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Old 08-20-2017, 02:00 PM   #101
catslayer
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This makes me laugh...

"your trigger finger is your number one management tool" Actual quote from biologist...

Culling is ABSOLUTELY an esential part of a good management plan. High fence low fence doesnt matter. Any population of deer may need it, many in Texas need it BADLY. Over time it WILL help improve a properties genetics by removing inferior genetics, but this is the LONG game. 10 years is a START

Bottom line, ppl dont take the time to cull correctly. They dont have the data to know how many and bucks or doe. And as sweeping generality bucks get too much attention in it...

So much more to it... but no point posting, ppl who actualy care will do the research

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Old 08-20-2017, 02:02 PM   #102
catslayer
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Originally Posted by texashunter56 View Post
It is about numbers and anytime you pull the trigger you are culling a mouth. What it is called before or after is up the person pulling the trigger.
Great summary, especially if you are feeding protien or really spend time on plots

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Old 08-20-2017, 02:12 PM   #103
catslayer
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Originally Posted by Top Of Texas View Post
WOO-HOO! I knew there had to be a few out there! I appreciate the post.
Would like to see the stats on how many lbs of protien that buck growing antker eats compared to that fawn... realy i guess you would need to figure the fawn AND mom...

Your also assuming that less is more... what if carrying capacity was 18 deer??

Your broad brush strokes ignore actual real world situations... not saying that it isnt more effective on straight deer density, just saying it ignores certain things

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Old 08-20-2017, 03:26 PM   #104
texashunter56
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Originally Posted by catslayer View Post
Would like to see the stats on how many lbs of protien that buck growing antker eats compared to that fawn... realy i guess you would need to figure the fawn AND mom...

Your also assuming that less is more... what if carrying capacity was 18 deer??

Your broad brush strokes ignore actual real world situations... not saying that it isnt more effective on straight deer density, just saying it ignores certain things

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Bucks in a lot areas of the state eat a lot of protein in the first month post rut and then in late July into August. The next highest consumption time period in South Texas was October. Post rut bucks will eat a lot of protein anywhere. I had a friend that pulled 4 2-4 yr old bucks from his does in late Jan in his pens. His hired hand was to put out a 50 lb bag of feed in the feed trough daily to see what they were eating per head per day. My friend left to go to SCI for that week. When he returned at noon that day he checked the feeder in the pen and it was empty. He went to the help and quizzed him. He asked him if he was putting out feed.."yes sir a 50# bag per day and they ate a 50# between 4 bucks every day". 12.5#/hd/day average.They increased the feed a bit but after about another week the consumption dropped. IME with pen deer in past I know that if fawns are born in June they will eat 3#/hd/day by late October or November and that is the same as an adult doe will eat year round in a breeder pen. Yearling bucks weaned in March will consume about that much and will continue to increase as they grow. 2 yr old pen bucks will consume 4-4.5#/hd/day during antler growing season. 3 yr old will consume 5.25 to 5.5#/hd per day. When I was on a ranch in the early 90's in the hill country the deer on that ranch average 1.5#/hd/day the first four years on year round free choice protein. Doe body weight increased 40% in that time period. Bucks body weight increased but we did not kill many bucks less than 2 yrs old and a few 3 yr olds to gauge it by accurately. Mature bucks weighed from 135 to 160 dressed weight in the same time period. If the buck was raised on feed his whole life he was definitely bigger at a mature age vs. bucks that were not. The ranch was HF the first year the feed started. We started out killing does only for the first 2 yrs. Fawn recruitment was very high and we had a large buck herd of young bucks by year 5. So we started to cull the lower end of all the age classes in year 6. By year 5 the drought hit and consumption went to 2.4#/hd/day on the ranch. A lot of the increase was a larger bodied deer herd and more mature bucks. Ratio was 1 buck to 1.3 does at the end of year 2 and by year 6 it was .77 does per buck. We were taking the whole herd down in numbers just not wholesale culling out bucks to kill bucks. Less does meant less fawns which would mean less deer down the road. I have a friend who has kept feed consumption records since about 1990 a 4700 acre HF ranch. He even did forage analysis to adjust his feeds accordingly for a numbers of years. He has the most accurate feed consumption data and records I have ever seen. I have kept feed records as long but not the forage test like he did.
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Old 08-20-2017, 04:10 PM   #105
Encinal
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Originally Posted by TKK View Post
I will take your study and raise you a recent study supporting culling - by David Hewett, A&M, and the Comanche Ranch over a ten year period. Couple this with the fact that we have culled heavily for years with outstanding results on a LF ranch. Think we will keep at it.

Go to the bottom of the article and read "the latest"


:http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/de...-culling-bucks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hewitt
The Latest
The latest findings by David Hewitt and a group of Texas A&M researchers might have finally answered this rather intriguing question: Do yearling antlers serve as a predictor of antler growth potential? These researchers used capture and harvest records from an impressive sample of 2,940 male white- tails on five study sites in Texas over a 10-year period to track antler development among bucks from yearling age to 5 years of age.

In their study, yearling deer with 3 or fewer antler points had antlers at maturity that were 32 centimeters smaller (on the Boone and Crockett scale) than deer with 4 or more antler points at yearling age.

According to Hewitt and his cohorts: “Our data show clearly that yearling male deer with small antlers have, on average, smaller antlers at maturity.” In their view, “The correlation between yearling and mature antler size was unequivocal.”

As expected, this latest study found that yearling body size was positively related to yearling antler size. This suggests that yearling deer with small antlers might have experienced poor nutrition early in life. However, the relationship between yearling antler size and body size became weaker at older age. As a result, this suggests that deer have some compensatory growth capability in body size or that factors other than early life nutrition have a greater influence on body size in older deer.

Since whitetails exhibit segregation of the adult sexes, this also implies that habitat designed to favor one sex might not necessarily favor the other. Obviously, nutritional conditions on the fawns natal range are critically impor- tant, as growth and development at a young age will impact the deer’s devel- opment throughout life. This does not mean antler genetics are unimportant. But this is a complex subject deserving far more discussion than allowed here.

Given their study findings, the authors concluded the following: “Because of a positive relationship between yearling and mature antler size, selective harvest of juvenile males can either increase or decrease the aver- age antler size of the cohort, depending upon harvest criteria.”
I don't think it says what you think it does.

He is saying that bucks of that cohort can be selected as to which will be bigger on average at maturity based on antler size as yearlings. However, if you actually read what was said, it talks about correlation of body weights and nutrition (and in all actuality probably birth time).

Selection based on this is just phenotypic selection and has very little to no basis in genetics because of the other huge variables, especially in South Texas.

This does nothing for the improvement of the next age class, save take mouths off the pasture.

Last edited by Encinal; 08-20-2017 at 04:19 PM..
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Old 08-20-2017, 04:30 PM   #106
TKK
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Originally Posted by Encinal View Post
I don't think it says what you think it does.

He is saying that bucks of that cohort can be selected as to which will be bigger on average at maturity based on antler size as yearlings. However, if you actually read what was said, it talks about correlation of body weights and nutrition (and in all actuality probably birth time).

Selection based on this is just phenotypic selection and has very little to no basis in genetics because of the other huge variables, especially in South Texas.

This does nothing for the improvement of the next age class, save take mouths off the pasture.
Here is his entire youtube presentation - long but supports culling

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEjOdyp1X34
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Old 08-20-2017, 04:38 PM   #107
TKK
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Originally Posted by Encinal View Post
I don't think it says what you think it does.

He is saying that bucks of that cohort can be selected as to which will be bigger on average at maturity based on antler size as yearlings. However, if you actually read what was said, it talks about correlation of body weights and nutrition (and in all actuality probably birth time).

Selection based on this is just phenotypic selection and has very little to no basis in genetics because of the other huge variables, especially in South Texas.

This does nothing for the improvement of the next age class, save take mouths off the pasture.
I have his power point presentation but will not post here

Last edited by TKK; 08-20-2017 at 04:40 PM..
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Old 08-20-2017, 04:40 PM   #108
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sorry double post
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Old 09-09-2017, 07:11 PM   #109
Top Of Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKK View Post
Here is his entire youtube presentation - long but supports culling

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEjOdyp1X34
Right when you thought I'd given up! Just got busy.

I beg anyone reading this to PLEASE, PLEASE PLEASE! Watch the video that TKK posted in its ENTIRETY, all the way to the end of the presentation. About 45 minites. Questions at end are good too, though Dave does get wishy-washy while answering with velvet gloves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEjOdyp1X34

This presentation actually proves that culling is NOT effective in a free range situation. David Hewitt is an outstanding researcher with the Ceasar Kleberg Research Institute in Kingsville.

Don't be confused by changes to "standing crop". For example, if I had 5 white socks and 5 black socks, then threw away 4 white socks, then my average of black socks would increase. Doesn't mean I got more black socks.
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